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Bailey Ober needs to be a Primary Starter!!


Doc Munson

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The Twins will need all of their starting pitching depth, and then some more than likely.  Even the healthiest teams use 6-7 starters over the course of a full season.  Factoring in recent injury woes for Twins pitchers and one thinks the Twins will use 6-7 starters easily this year. But lets assume the Twins keep a 5 man rotation.  With the Twins most likely using 6-7, there will still be 4-5 "Primary starters".  and 2-3 that will either be short term starters, sporadic starters, or spot starters.  

We have some obvious Primary Starters locked in.  Sonny Gray, Joe Ryan, and Pablo Lopez  are locks.

Lets go ahead and assume that Tyler Mahle  is fully healthy and will be good to go. that is a 4th no brainer.  So who is, or better yet who SHOULD be #5?

I can tell you right who IS, or WILL be #5, and that is Kenta Maeda. The Twins will be banking on Maeda being the All Star level pitcher he was in 11 games in the Covid shortened 2020 season. Where in 11 games he went 66 innings, good for a 6+ inning average with 80K against 10 BB a 2.70 ERA and a 0.75 WHIP.

But... SHOULD he be th e5th starter? and is it reasonable to expect that after a year+ off? His career averages are a 3.87 ERA  just under a 4:1  K:BB rate,  a 9.85K/9  and a 1.14 WHIP.  Those are still very good numbers anyone would love to have in the rotation.

That being said, in albeit a much shorter sample size, Ober has career numbers of 3.82 ERA, just under a 5:1 K rate, a 9K/9IP and a 1.15 WHIP..

If we go by the numbers,  it says they are both equally effective starting pitchers. And the question you must ask then is... "IF they are both equal, and  both interchangeable for each other, then who should be the 5th starter?"

"Common sense" or maybe more accurately "traditional thinking" says it should be Maeda, as Ober still has options.  But should he???

I would argue we need to look longer term. Any player CAN be resigned this offseason, so in theory ANY of our starters could be back, BUT... in reality we will not resign everyone, and we actually have only Randy Dobnak and Chris Paddack under contract for next year. Of course Joe Gray will be here, and will still have rights to Lopez, BUT the only sure things are Dobnak and Paddack.  Most likely Sonny Gray and Maeda will be gone.

With that in mind, I think the correct way to look at things, assuming both pitchers should give roughly the same results is to go with the pitcher who will still be here going forward and continue to give him the experience and build up he will need for next year. This way next year is not his first "full year" in the rotation and is not as much of a question mark.

Secondly while predominately a starter in LA, Maeda did also show he can be very successful out of the bullpen, and if you are a cheapskate you can save millions in bonuses paid to Maeda with him in a relief/PT starter situation.

The clear way of thinking screams the 5th starter needs to be Ober vs Maeda.

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To begin the '23 season, IMO a piggy-back system would be beneficial for both SPs. Much like Pineda/ Perez did in '19 that worked very well. Like Pineda, Maeda is coming off TJ and like Perez, Ober needs to be eased into the starter role. By the time both are stretched out properly, maybe that question would be solved. But hopefully not because I hate to see any those 4 down. If we are fortunate, then we'll have a dilemma.

I believe Maeda was used predominately as a RP at LAD. That's why Maeda was disgruntle w/ LAD and was their motivation of moving him. I agree with your logic of preference over Ober. Once Ober is acclimated with the rigor of being a MLB SP, he'll be a very good one.

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No need to worry about Ober getting innings - if healthy, he will get every opportunity to get in the maximum starts his ramp up in ‘23 allows. There just is so little chance our expected five starters stay heathy. Personally, I’m expecting Gray, Mahle, and Lopez to all need some time off this season and Maeda won’t get fully ramped up until 1/4 - 1/3 of the season if all goes well anyway. Also, depending on if, or how close, we are to competing, a couple of our impending ‘24 starters might be traded by the deadline anyway.

I expect the number of our “primary” starters this year to actually be more like 7-8 with Ober and Maeda rounding out the top 6. Remember, an incredibly important sub goal to this season is to see what we have in Ober, Varland, Winder, and SWR and to get them ready for the ‘24 campaign - so all should see plenty of big league action this year even if there are limited injuries or departures within the “top five”.

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Imho Ober should start in the pen up here vs starting at AAA. Its been done many times over the years with success, Think Liriano or Santana. I'm just not sure he can hold up to 180 IP per year and I think that's what should be expected out of a starter. He could still make spot starts or plug into the rotation if injuries cause an opening.

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Spring training will be the "tell." But I would start the season with the guys who can give yu the msoit innings out of the box. WHich may be Ober.

Madea could stay behind and pitch longer in Florida to get in the groove. Or he could start the season as a 2-inning guy out of the pen. But alot depends, too, on Mahle. 

The Twins need 30 starts from their main guys, and for many to push 150 innings or more. They need their potential free agents to shine and either resign them, or be prepped to flip them at the deadline, hoping guys like Varland and Woods Richardson (and Ober) are ready to pick up the slack.

There is at least one swing bullpen position. Alcala is far from a lock, he could start the season getting used to competitive pitching in the minors. We also have to hope that Thielbar is worn out, and that Pagan is a worthwhile keep.

I would rather see Ober start in St. Paul, then get stuck in long relief at Target Field.

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I concur on that theory  , Ober as a starter and see if he can stay healthy as a starter for 2023 and then pencil him in for 2024 if he's effective ...

Maeda may not like it but he has excelled from the pen ...

So to compromise  they should piggyback so maeda can work towards his bonuses and Ober can get more innings than 1 every other day ...

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There's no given that any of the free agent starters we have will be back in '24. We have Ryan, Lopez and Ober available for '24 as of right now starters. We hope Paddock will make it back by the end of this year. That leaves room for 4-5 slots for guys expected to start the year at triple A or free agent signings for expected '24 rotation needs. Time this year for the triple A guys to make major league starts has to be made, even if that means giving the starters at the major league level planned start days off. The guys in the regular rotation may benefit health wise for a planned missed start every 4th or 5th start.

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Personally I'm a fan of the 6 man rotation with the Twins roster, Everyone except Ryan has injury issues and couldn't stay on the field within the last two years. Give them the extra day off and hopefully that keeps them all out there for more starts on the year and potentially deeper in games where 80-90 pitch count isn't quite as concerning with the extra day off. I don't see anyway they get through May with all 6 still healthy so get through the cold months with the extra arms then condense to 5 with whoever goes down and bring up the extra long reliever from AAA

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He has been very good in the minors and mostly very good in the majors. In 2022 he almost only pitched against teams that were not very good, but excelled. So he has rocked AAA and rocked AAAA. A six man rotation is not unprecedented. And... like everyone says... someone will surely be injured nearly out of the gate. So, let's not sweat it. Put him on as the sixth.

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Ober will be 28 in July, there is ZERO reason for him to be in the minors, if he isn't good enough to make the opening day roster this year, how can you expect him to be part of the rotation going forward. If I was in charge of this team, I would be go with a 6 man rotation for a couple of starts and tell Ryan, Ober and Maeda, prove to me your deserve one of the top spots, and the other guy would go to to pen.

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I think that we give meada the 5th slot, because reports from fort myers say that he is looking good so far, but I agree, a six man rotation Would he a good opportunity to help Ober grow as a starter. After all the twins did well with a six man rotation at the beginning of the season last year. 

2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Ober will be 28 in July, there is ZERO reason for him to be in the minors, if he isn't good enough to make the opening day roster this year, how can you expect him to be part of the rotation going forward. If I was in charge of this team, I would be go with a 6 man rotation for a couple of starts and tell Ryan, Ober and Maeda, prove to me your deserve one of the top spots, and the other guy would go to to pen.

 

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On 2/19/2023 at 7:40 AM, Doctor Gast said:

To begin the '23 season, IMO a piggy-back system would be beneficial for both SPs. Much like Pineda/ Perez did in '19 that worked very well. Like Pineda, Maeda is coming off TJ and like Perez, Ober needs to be eased into the starter role. By the time both are stretched out properly, maybe that question would be solved. But hopefully not because I hate to see any those 4 down. If we are fortunate, then we'll have a dilemma.

I believe Maeda was used predominately as a RP at LAD. That's why Maeda was disgruntle w/ LAD and was their motivation of moving him. I agree with your logic of preference over Ober. Once Ober is acclimated with the rigor of being a MLB SP, he'll be a very good one.

Maeda was primarily a starter for the Dodgers. At the end of two different seasons he was the low man and got slotted into the Pen. That said, I agree Ober should be the 5th starter. My logic is two pronged. First, Ober is not durable and if he’s pitching well coming out of Spring Training, don’t disrupt that and take advantage of as many innings as we can get out of him while healthy. No reason to have him burning up innings in St. Paul. Second, Maeda is coming off elbow surgery at 35. Having him strengthen our Pen out of Spring Training seems logical. If Ober fades in June/July & Maeda has only thrown 45 innings through June, he’s ready to stretch out over a month and we’re set.

 

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We also need to remember that Rocco seldom let Ober pitch past five innings. In fact there were some four inning starts by Ober, so analytics doesn’t seem to be Ober’s friend with this FO and manager that rely on algorithms rather than manager intuition and decision making. Also the trend in baseball is to give starters coming back from TJ surgery low pitch counts, very short starts and maybe a ceiling on innings for the year, which does make sense. So I think Ober will get some starts along with Maeda. It wouldn’t surprise me if they went with six starters for that reason, but that will put more pressure on the BP.  

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Maeta will be the 5th starter... more about getting his trade value up than anything. Will be teams lined up by June for him if he can show that he is healthy and effective. Rays .. I mean the Twins way of getting guys for reasonable contracts and them flipping them for value. I believe that Sonny and Mahle will be in the same boat and there is a good chance that we Will move at least 2 of them depending on health of the rotation. 

Makes little sense letting them go for nothing unless we are "killing it". 

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I can't imagine that all 6 starters they currently have will be without injury by the end of April so I think Maeda and Ober will both get a chance if they're not the ones on the IL. I hope I am wrong but Mahle worries me a lot and I think he is the first to go down.

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If Ober can show he can pitch more than 100 innings in a season, then great!

I have Mahle and Lopez and Ryan as firmly better than him. I THINK Maeda and Gray, based on track records, are better than him. But I also firmly believe that Ober has the ability to be a mid-rotation starter.

I don't know what the future holds for next year and ongoing, but I'm hoping that Mahle and Lopez get extensions. You mentioned how most teams use 6-7 starters. The Astros had 8 different starters start a game in 2022, and the Dodgers used 12. The Twins used 14, but hopefully they don't have a year with THAT many injuries again.

More good pitching isn't a problem. And everyone will get a chance throughout the year assuming for injuries and double-headers etc.

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The complicating factor is Maeda's contract has incentives for games started. He may look at a move to relief as a way to keep his salary down. Maeda should be ready for the season, maybe not 6-7 innings for first few starts. It is an unusual position for the Twins to have the 6th starter, a legitimate MLB starting pitcher. I look for Ober to get plenty of starts for the Twins next year, then to be in top 5 of rotation in 2024.

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I think its pretty simple to me - whoever are the most healthy for us this year will be considered the 'primary' starters when the season is over.  Baily will get his chance, if he does well and stays healthy - he will be one of them.  If not, then he won't.  Last year Bundy was a primary starter for us by logging the most innings - is that something any of us are proud of?

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