Tomj14

IMO, I don't see how a starting pitcher that averages less than 5 2/3 innings can be considered wildly underrated. He was pretty great for 5 innings but they still need to cover the ~100 - 120 innings he doesn't pitch in his starts. If a team is going to load up on starters that average that many innings you better invest in your bullpen because somebody has to pitch the other half of the game. I would prefer Madison over Wheeler, but would like both and Odo and leave the 5th spot to the minor league guys.

To be fair Correa had a WAR of 4.3 at age 20 in the majors and Bergman 1.8 at 22. Which could happen with Lewis (not likely) and Alex (very possible) this year and if it does it goes to show they need to spend on pitching ASAP.

and yet, those teams have won 5 of the last 7 world series. And correct me if I am wrong, but the Twins have lost 15 playoff games in a row dating back to at least 2006. You are 100% correct not all trades work and neither do all free agent signings, but looking at the history of who wins world series there does seem to be a theme in trading and signing great players. Some people are happy with a good team that has a few decent years and a good power ranking with a highly ranked farm system. And some hope for more. (I do understand what you are saying, I am just ready for the Twins to actually push some of their chips in a play with the big boys)

It seems people want the Twins to be the next Royals, Astros, Nats, until they realize all of those teams did more than call up their prospects. The price to get great players isn't cheap (either with prospects or Cash), thus winning the world series comes with a cost.

Strasburg 7-year, $175 million Corbin 6-year, $140 million.

"Jake Cave and LaMonte Wade, Jr. have both proven capable of filling in until a prospect arrives." Can you please explain what Wade has done to be considered a capable fill in with all of his 56 major league at bats?

agreed, and hopefully the FO sees that it will be trading some minor league guys for a starting pitcher and it can't hurt to have another option on the 40 man. If they don't trade and sign some free agents he is probably the first guy dropped off the 40. So I see no harm right now, maybe in a few months if they haven't done much else I will complain and complain loudly about it.

I would take a bet that Kershaw will be better than Graterol for at least the next 4 years, and Price the next two. It would take way more than Graterol to get Kershaw, but I would still bet the production of Kershaw or Graterol and the "way more" for two years. Not sure what the price for Price is but I wouldn't trade Graterol for him, even though I think Price will be a more productive major league pitcher than him for the next two years.

He is not my first choice, but he is my first real viable choice to sign. He is a guy even in down years averages more than 6 innings per start and he is what the Twins fans I know have been hoping every hot shot Twins prospect turns into and being 30 doesn't scare me and his worst years are almost better than Darvish's best years and everybody wanted him.

What if the Twins told him to go all out for 5 innings (like Odo seems to do), would he? could he? be better than Odo? I don't know the answer, but it seems like looking just a whip, his numbers might be worse because of those extra inning. He is not in my top few guys I would like, but I think for the right price he isn't a horrible idea.

I think this FO has proved it won't sell minor leagues low. They don't make trades if they think they are selling low, I think that has been proven. I don't get the we should keep him just because, I am pretty sure we be what is said about the top 20 Twins prospects and my question is how do you get better pitchers with out giving something up?

I am guessing (really hoping) that MN didn't think he was going to be a upgrade over what they had at the time (Berrios, Pineda, Ordo and Gibson) and weren't willing to pay the price being asked for a 5th starter. Which if Pineda doesn't get hurt May be true. And (fingers crossed) their thoughts were with those guys plus another or two they could get a better pitcher at the deadline or off season. Hopefully not wishful thinking.

One of the issues the Twins have is Lewis,Larnich, Kiriloff, Graterol as al basically top 50 guys, and to trade top 50 guys you need a really, really good player back with years of control. (not sure who that is?) And the next tier is what everybody seems to want to trade for that really, really good player with years of control and other teams might not think that highly of them, leaving the Twins in a tough spot for trading. basically what Riverbrian said above.

I wasn't calling them to trade either of those two guys in April, because neither had any real trade value. I was calling them to trade Romero in 2017 for a playoff run and before 2018 to make another playoff run when he still had value, by 2019 Romero's trade value was basically nothing but a throw in on another trade as a guy with possible upside. Minor league surplus only means you have a bunch of players that have a high upside but haven't failed yet or your major league team is stacked and their just isn't a position for the prospect that has succeeded in the majors every step of the way. If you are going to hold onto every prospect in the low minors with a high upside until they have proven they are for real or failed, you are going to end up on the wrong side of the percentages.

I understand what you are saying. But a 24 year old 2B that has to be put on the 40 man doesn't have anywhere near the trade value of a 21 year old (top 35 prospect) SS with the last name Gordon, so unless an injury happens and he gets called up and plays like Arraez is trade value isn't going up anytime soon if ever. The same can be said for Romero and Gonzo. As for Dobnak, Thorpe, Smeltzer, Romero,Gonsalves and Poppen none of them are younger than 24 and if you packaged them all in a trade wouldn't get you want you would have gotten for Romero when he was 21 lighting up A ball. I will give the Twins this with Graterol at least they brought him and used him to see what they have, unlike what they did with the other high rated pitches that lost their luster and trade value as the moved up the ranks. Finally - "We had a NEED for every one of these prospects unless we found a better prospective or real alternative." The Twins did have a need that was to help the major league team win, either with their play or helping get better players and so far they haven't filled that need at all. One could say keeping those players cost them Nick Anderson, and a handful of other relief pitchers they had to let go because there wasn't room on the 40 man.(I am not but one could)

Would the Twins ever give up Jorge Alcala and Gilberto Celestino for a relief pitcher?

I read this somewhere else as well, but it seems to me that teams can or possibly still will keep a LOOGY on their team, they can come in at the end of a inning the starter pitchers or to end an inning were the relief pitcher has gotten two outs and has given up a hit or walk. Most relief pitchers end up averaging less than an inning and I think they will continue to do that. IMO

That is not true, they were both top 5 Twins prospects for 3 years, they Twins just didn't take advantage of trading them when they were. Kind of like Gonsalves and Romero. Lets hope the same thing doesn't happen to Gordon or any of the other top minor league players. I am pretty sure back in 2015, Jay, Stewart and Gordon would have brought back something pretty good. In 2016 it probably would have gotten more in return since they were all in the Twins top 5. 2017 might have been a decent return with all three in the Twins top 10, then the bottom fell out in 2018 for Jay and Stewart and 19 seen Gordon drop.

Can't take that seriously if you think Houston wasted prospects for Verlander. He has went 42 - 15 in just over two years, pitched 471 innings with a 2.44 ERA, with 633 K's. I would trade anybody and any prospect(s) if the Twins could get that the next two years out of a starting pitcher and 2 world series appearances in the next three years.

2015 - Wild Card, beat the Yankees, Lost in 5 games in ALDS to the eventual World Series Champion Kansas City (86 - 76) (Dallas Keuchel Cy Young) 2016 - 3rd place in Division (84 -78) 2017- World Series Champs (101 wins) (José Altuve MVP) 2018 - Lost in ALCS to eventual World Series Champs and 108 win Boston team. (103 wins) 2019 - World Series (107-55) (possible MVP - Alex Bregman and possible CY Young - Verlander/Cole) So you guess "IF" they win another world series or two it would be determined successful? I am pretty sure winning the world series or losing to the world series champion 4 out of 5 years (and being in the world series 2 out of 3 years) is considered a success in just about everybody mind. No offense, but you might be the only baseball fan that isn't sure if the Astros plan has been a success or not.

Wouldn't the big difference be that in 2016 Houston finished in 3rd place in their division and in 2017 at the trading deadline they traded 3 prospects (in their top 11) for Verlander won 101 games and went on to win the World Series, then after winning the world series traded 4 more prospects and picked up another ace in Gerrit Cole. Where in 2017 the twins finished 2nd in the division, make some good to great Free agent pick ups following the season, those pick up resulted in a 100 win pace, didn't trade prospects for an ace, got swept in the first round of the playoffs and have to basically fill out a new rotation, not just add another ace?

Is it anymore of a concern that Odo has never pitched 200 innings and only once over 170? Wheeler has average over 6 innings the last two years. (I don't think that is worth 20+ million) but I think Wheeler has been better than Odo the last two years and people are willing to give him 19 million.

I agree with your first point and this is modern baseball, my point is why spend 19 million on that. When you still need 4 innings to finish the game, wouldn't it be better to spread that cost over all 9 innings instead of front loading it? And if this is truly the case, why bother starting him, you could have Thorpe or somebody else go the first two, have him pitch 3 - 8 and bring in the closer to finish it off, that way at least you are spending money later in the game.

I think the difference between the two is the 69 1/3 more innings Berrios has pitched the last two years and being 4 years younger. Odo did pitch really well against the yanks for 5 innings but Berrios pitched 4 innings and gave up 1 earned run. I don't undersell Odo's talent, he is very talented 5 inning pitcher, there really can be no arguing that. I am good with both on the team as well, but as I have pointed out in many other posts, the front office needs to pack the bullpen because they will be pitching close to half of the game when he pitches. (In reality I believe Odo and Berris should be allowed to pitch more pitches thus giving them more innings but the manager or front office doesn't agree with me)

agree 1 year contracts are never bad and if you can get him for 3/45 that isn't bad. The front office justs need to realize you need a bunch of good relief pitchers and a shuttle to AAA to cover the other 4 innings the night he pitches. It is not a surprise the bullpen starts to look bad when you have 4 or 5 starters going 4-6 innings every night.