kab21

Or how about keeping Santana instead of hoping that you can replace him and actually improving the rotation? The target should be increasing the # of good starters instead of treading water. Money shouldn't be a problem since Mauer comes off the books the following season. We really don't know anything about how this front office will operate.

You are going to overpay if you are trading for it or if you are bidding on FA's. This board and you seem to be saying everything is an overpay which means that the Twins will be left to develop a starting rotation and play for 2020+. It would be great to have the perfect deal fall into the Twins laps but most likely that isn't going to happen and if they want to get serious about building a rotation then they will need to ante up even if it hurts.

But if they say no and there aren't other acceptable options then the Twins don't add starting pitching. And that is as bad as a bad trade because this team won't truly go anywhere without adding starting pitching. The Twins are basically in the Sam Bradford situation. That trade was a necessary overpay because the Vikings had no options at QB. But they certainly overpaid in that trade. If you don't trade for it then you are going to have to outbid everyone for one of the few very good starters on the market that each have their own question marks on them.

There are 3 ways to add starting pitching for the Twins: 1) develop it - realistically only 1 (possibly 2) of Mejia, Romero, Gonsalves or Jorge become decent starters and it might take a couple of years of bouncing between AAA and MLB to accomplish it. If this is the plan then trade off everyone (and I mean everyone) and build for 2021 or later. 2) sign a FA - I have been told that the FA pitching market sucks (hopes and dreams) and the Twins won't add anyone good there. 3) trade for it - it is great to say that I would only trade a couple of our best prospects for actual elite starters but what is your plan B in case the very few options are turned down? And I am not sure if the Twins have the prospects for Archer or Stroman even if nobody is untouchable. At some point you will need to pick a path and make a risky move. The other option is to not make a significant addition to the rotation and repeat the 2017 season (and the ones before it).

The Twins already have a rotating starter in the fifth spot and for the most part that starter has been worse than Gibson. So yeah, it's that bad. Once the Twins secure the 5th spot then kick Gibson to the curb but I also have no interest in watching 2 spots in the rotation filled by the latest version Pino, Devries, Albers, Dean or Jason Miller.

Yes, I am perfectly aware that it is expensive to trade for good pitching. The elephant in the room is that this team has two better than average starters (hoping Ervin can withstand father time) and they will not go anywhere (significant) ever if they don't add pitching. And you are right, they aren't 1 pitcher away. That is why I would only target controllable starters (2.5 seasons). The absolutely most important part of the equation if the Twins want to be competitive in 2018-2020 is to first add a 3rd good pitcher because you can't add a 4th good starter until you have a 3rd one in place. So how do you propose the Twins add a 3rd good starter (and potentially a 4th) for 2018? Or do you tear it down and completely rebuild because the Twins aren't one starter away? Picking the middle route and just waiting (hoping) that Twins rebuild the rotation through prospects is going to take awhile or involve a lot of luck.

I shouldn't have even responded to the pointless comment 'what are the odds the Twins sign one'. The response to yarnivek that there weren't any good starters in FA. I disagree with that and your comment didn't add anything.

This sounds like it can work until 1-2 injuries happen and now UDFA's are in the 7th/8th man roles. The Wolves have the bigs to withstand an injury but right now Wiggins/Butler (36 min/gm) and Crawford (24 min/gm) need somebody NBA capable that can fill in for a 20 game stretch if there is an injury. This definitely looks like a roster where the starters will be playing close to 40 min/gm every night. That isn't going to work for a full season and an attempted run in the playoffs.

I find it frustrating when people don't want to trade any halfway decent prospect for good starting pitching. Or sign good starting pitching in FA. At some point you need to get starting pitching and it won't be cheap in prospects and/or salary. If you don't want to do either then you might as well tear down the team and completely rebuild (including Sano) because the Twins don't have the pitching prospects coming up in the next 2-3 seasons to be a playoff team. Losing Gordon would hurt but they can survive without a SS (Escobar/Dozier/Polanco with some prospects lower in the system).

Yes, the odds are not good but this is what I would do. And that is stop running the Twins like a impoverished organization and aim to compete sooner than later since the offense is putting together a good nucleus. It would be similar to the type of offseason that the Wolves had. They were aggressive and there is a lot of optimism for next year.

So your argument is that they don't try? That makes sense... It is getting borderline ridiculous at how people pick apart available pitchers that the Twins could target. And how convenient it is to use Cueto had an off year 2 years ago? He had a 3.44 ERA. Basically any season that isn't Cy Young level is an off year I guess. He is having an off year this year but the sample size (high HR rate) isn't huge yet based on his past track record. Lance Lynn is just coming back from TJ and his velocity, swstr% and K rates are back and he is getting hammered by an absurdly high HR rate. HR rate is a luck stat. Darvish will still be in FA but it seems like you wouldn't even make the call. It seems like there will always be excuses for not improving the Twins rotation. No good FA starters is the latest. Must keep every prospect is also brought up all the time. Keep building for 2020+ and keep Pohlad's bank account full people.

Hughes is there until he is cut. If not him then it will be a backend type. Darvish, Cueto and Lance Lynn beg to differ. It won't be easy (or cheap) or possibly a good idea long term but I am not concerned about Pohlad's bank account. Get some pitching.

Gibson ain't coming back. Sign one FA pitcher to a biggish contract (more than Santana). FA Santana Berrios Mejia Hughes Still a shaky rotation but it is progress. The part that is different from this year is that there are legitimately interesting AAA arms next year that will be ready to be promoted in Jorge, Romero and Gonsalves. May might be ready at some point but it usually takes 15-18 months to be back at full strength. He definitely won't be ready on opening day. But that is a 4th promising arm as plan B next season and beyond. And for the record I am for trading for a pitcher like Gray and bumping each of those starters down a spot. Gray, FA, Santana and Berrios is a fairly decent rotation and I think makes the team competitive in the playoffs.

Gibson is the Twins #4. All of these pitchers that aren't getting a shot can be used as the 5th starter (like Jorge was). I also think that people are getting ahead of themselves with how ready they think Romero, Gonsalves and Jorge are. They are good prospects and Romero has great stuff but they have between 15 and 23 AA games started. Promoting now is really risky and could lead to a loss of development time which is important for next season. The additional problem with Romero is that I expect him to get shut down early or shift to the bullpen. I am hoping that he is brought up to the Twins bullpen. And things can be worse than Gibson.

I would not remove Gibson from the rotation until there is someone holding down the #5 spot. The Twins don't need 2 revolving doors. And if you don't look at advanced stats (they are terrible) Gibson was adequate in June after his demotion. Make no mistake about it though, he has been awful. I have no expectations that anyone else is better though and those other options are going to get plenty of chances. This is how bad the Twins rotation depth is. This is also why I am in favor of trading a top 20-ish prospect for a backend starter. Or for trading for Gray.

The A's will certainly find a better pitching prospect or OF prospect than the Twins can offer. But I think they still target the best overall prospect group. The problem with saying 'I'm not sure Gray is that guy' is that 'Who is that guy?' is then an unanswerable question. If a pitcher had 2.5 years of control and didn't have the Q marks that Gray has then Gordon/Romero (one example) isn't even half of the package. Nick Gordon has started to cool off and still has a really high BAPIP. I think he is quite overrated by this board. He is a very good prospect but overrated. Trading Buxton is an interesting dilemma. I think he will follow Gomez and Hicks paths towards being a late blooming All-Star. In fact I think Buxton still has a better chance to be an All-Star level player than Gordon. I wonder if Gordon/Jorge/Granite could get it done. They would probably want Romero or Gonsalves though.

He should be a middling pitcher but I still think he hurt something in that extra inning game. His velocity dropped after that and it cratered in his last start.

Strong addition to the bench and great value on the contract. He might not be ideal but that is what you get when you pay bargain basement prices in FA. Great starting 5. Very good bench with Jones - Crawford - Gibson getting the bulk of the minutes. Bjelica give it a little depth. Patton gives it a project. Aldrich is there (for now). I think they still need another backup wing (like Rush?). What does this mean for the cap and the exceptions? I believe this took them up to the cap and their options now are to use the smaller exception (3.5-4M), trade Aldrich to free up cap space or use the bi-annual exception (8.5M). I assume they want to retain the bi-annual exception so they can use it next year or they won't be able to sign anyone to fill a hole. The exceptions are a little confusing.

Tired? Perhaps it is due to his workload. I wouldn't call the experiment failed. He has struggled lately for sure though. I think you underestimate the length of time needed to stretch out his arm after relieving for 3+ months. And I think you skip the issue of also needing RP'ers.

Is anybody actually really going for it (with regards to GSW)? Money is a complete non issue. They are spending it (all of it). The Wolves can't just start dealing draft picks away though. They are setup (even if Butler leaves) for sustained success but to do that they need to hit on a draft pick (role player level) every now and then to fill holes.

They gotta get someone obviously. If they go for Miles then it won't be cheap and they need to clear some salary. The Wolves are a rumored landing spot for Jamal Crawford also after his buyout.

The point is that every year people start penciling in draft picks prematurely. The bust rate for late 1st rd picks is quite high and if that happens then it isn't really a black mark for the front office. And 2019 is probably the most optimistic timetable for all but elite level draft picks to stick in the MLB. There are of course exceptions but that is why they are exceptions. Vargas is so frustrating since I have been a big Vargas supporter. I think he can be a .800+ OPS, 25+ HR bat but he has pretty much run out of chances in MN. Especially on a team with Grossman and Mauer playing (and starting most games) the way they are. Vargas doesn't offer anything but hitting and if he isn't hitting then someone else should be up.

Rumor is that CJ Miles would like to come to the Wolves but it would likely require a sign and trade involving Aldrich and the OKC pick. For Miles I would be alright with that. I am hesitant to trade picks to dump Aldrich but Miles is a good fit and fills a big need. The pick likely ends up being in the 20's in the next draft also so that is a reasonable price to pay.

I am trying to contain my enthusiasm since I thought last year's Wolves could go .500 and battle for the playoffs. My enthusiasm this year is really high but at the same time it is hard to put the Wolves into the top 3 or 4 in the West. It could happen but the West is really good. The Wolves will also be near the bottom in 3 PT attempts again since none of their 4 starters (not Dieng) are bulk 3 pt shooters. I also need to see their remaining bench moves because right now Jones, Question Mark Man and Gibson are getting the bulk of the reserve minutes. If they suffer any type of injury then things can get ugly fast since there is no depth. I think I put the Wolves 8th in the NBA during a pre-class discussion with a couple of students that know NBA basketball. GSW CLE SAS - sticking with them despite so many issues HOU BOS OKC - no depth TOR MIN Many teams in the this tier. And that even looks optimistic since that last tier is deep. A lot could happen there. But I am really excited about the Wolves. They could take a big step up since they have two All-NBA level players.

No team (or at least very few) in the majors has that kind of depth. Usually starters 8, 9 and 10 are cycling through one spot in the rotation by the time it gets that far. Or at least if you are talking about a good #5 starter. The Twins problems this year (and many others) is that they are cycling their depth (which aren't very good) through at least 3 spots in the rotation. Both the MLB rotation and the MiLB prospects/AAAA callups (the 6th-10th guys) have been awful for quite awhile. At least next year it is likely that they could have 3 strong prospects in AAA to call up. That is progress.