kab21

No, that part is absolutely true. My point was that if the pitchers are the 8th, 9th and 10th option then they aren't being counted on to stick. That would be like counting on Turley and Jorge to stick this season or something like that.

this might be semantics but you actually aren't counting on all 3 if they are 8/9/10 on your list. At that point you are usually throwing stuff against the wall and hoping that one sticks. And I find Romero, Jorge, Gonsalves and a rehabbing May to be a lot more interesting (depth wise) plan B's than they have had for awhile.

I see two moves for the Twins A) Trade Dozier or Escobar for decent pitching prospects that could be up by the end of 2018. B-) Trade some mediocre prospect or two for sort of decent starter and/or bullpen arm I would trade Santana for the kind of return that some think is possible. The problem is that everyone makes an argument about why to trade Santana (he's old, he was injured before, he was suspended, he almost shares a name with Magic) and they think that only Twins Daily knows is aware of these things.

No one is expecting Santana to be a sub 3 ERA pitcher. I expect him to pitch like he has for most his career (around a 4 ERA). You aren't adding two pitchers for Santana. In the best case you can get two decent pitching prospects for him that might be decent MLB pitchers sometime in 2018-2020. This team shouldn't be playing 2020. They shouldn't sell the future to play for 2017 or 2018 but signing a good FA doesn't hurt them (only Pohlad's bank account).

Imo building next year's rotation starts with adding one legit good starter and keeping Santana. That gives you 3 good starters and then hopefully one of the 3 prospects (or May after rehab) can claim a spot early next year. While hopefully someone like Hughes (or other stopgap) can not get Gibson'd in the meantime.

The question is just how repeatable that outcome is going forward. I remain quite skeptical of a pitcher that has a 5+ BB/9 rate in 9 out of 12 games this season. Those walks will catch up to him.

The Twins absolutely need to add 1-2 SP from outside the org for next season (or better yet this season). And this is why I don't want to interrupt the development of Jorge, Romero and Gonsalves for this mythical 'they are going to struggle once so let's get it out of the way now' mindset. Bring them up in September is a good idea but not early July. I think these 3 pitchers are the 3 AAA pitchers that you mention needing to add. One of them could even begin the season in the rotation but probably not.

Santiago's pitch velocities tell an interesting and perhaps tragic story. Normally he has been in the 90-94 mph range with his fastball. It dropped 3-4 mph after he pitched in relief in late May. His velocity was back in his first start back after the DL but then dropped to its lowest point (85-90mph) in his latest shelling. I predict he has another DL stint coming up soon. And possibly even something significantly wrong like TJ.

We are talking about 3 young pitchers that are good but not great prospects with 25 (SG), 21 (FJ) and 14 (FR) GS at AA. Promoting them right now is certainly rushing them. Berrios had a lot more talent (Romero perhaps has the raw stuff) and had made 53 GS split between AA/AAA before his August 2016 callup. I don't see how their situations are even comparable.

I don't think it really works like this. Calling them up now doesn't get their rookie struggles out of the way right now.Calling them up now while they are still developing pitches leads to them abandoning those pitches because they get rocked. And then development time lost. Imo calling them up too early delays their eventual readiness to join a rotation contrary to the popular opinion that they are going to struggle anyway so let's get it out of the way now. It just isn't as simple as stated in this thread. I am in favor of calling them up in August or September after they have pitched most of the MiLB season. Romero will obviously have to shift to the bullpen and possibly the others if someone steps forward in the rotation or a trade is made.

I would be hesitant to start including 1st rd picks (Patton or in the future) to make that happen though. It is nice to have a steady influx of young players that can develop in something (even role players). Or an asset that you can toss into a deadline trade. They should have mid level exception to use. I think. That gets them a solid wing player and the 4M (and possibly the smaller exception) to fill out the bench. But even with those there are going to be a couple UDFA earning min contracts I think.

For years the Twins had no SS/MI depth anywhere in the org and continually used mediocre options in the majors. I really can't complain about having too many MI since they are the most difficult position to find and can command a premium in trades since almost every org needs them. And I wouldn't call this a logjam. Gordon is a sure MLB'er at this point but even he isn't a lock to be a starter. Javier, Lewis and Marte have a long way to go before they notice a logjam. Some might move off of SS and some might not make it through A ball. I like the signing and I think the stockpiling shows the foresight to be active in trading prospects (?for pitching?).

They got one of my guys that I wanted. I am not sure what to think about that price though. Seems pretty expensive for Taj or at least more than I expected. By my count the Wolves had 18M in salary cap space (counting Patton but not counting Muhammad). Taj just used 14M of it. That isn't buying much of a backup wing. Like either Muhammad or Rush but not both.

I think the criticism of Boshers is a little premature. I have been quite critical of the Twins recycling through 89 mph uninspiring relievers with mediocre MiLB K rates but Boshers has had strong K rates and some decent success in the minors. He is 29 and his velocity is off this year but he is more interesting than half a dozen of the guys so far.

I wouldn't call these low money signings but it seems like pitching is best acquired in a quantity of mid-tier signings. Ynoa - 800K Thorpe -500K Jorge - 330K Romero - 260K I really can't fault the Twins for their int'l signings since the Sano era of aggressiveness began. They have 4 pretty good pitching prospects listed above. It is still early but Javier, Minier and Diaz have done well enough so far. And I don't really care what position Marte plays. Optimistically he is 5 years away. A lot can happen in 5 years as far as team needs.

I don't really see the point of getting rid of Adrianza to make room for Granite. The moves that could make room for Granite A) Option Vargas - I am a big Vargas supporter and think he could be a .800 OPS 25-30 HR DH/1B but he is not doing well. Option Buxton - Yes, his defense is awesome but we are halfway into the season and he is OPS'ing .552. That is Drew Butera's career OPS. That is how bad that is. Granite definitely wouldn't be as good defensively but Kepler and Rosario are still plus defenders on the corner. He has been given 3 months and his hot month was a .701 OPS. I don't have high expectations of Granite. He looks like Revere statistically but Revere put up 4 .300BA/.700+OPS seasons. I can live with that as a 4th OF'er or until Buxton takes the role back.

I also got see one of his bullpen games in CR that year (one of my few trips home to MN). Looked it up - 5/29 Eades started and Jorge relieved. I remember wanting to see Stewart but my schedule was busy. No reason to make a 40 man move for a spot start in a doubleheader. I still think (more like hope) we see Romero in August in the bullpen. My bad - he is on the 40 man. This is a singular spot start and imo it is the perfect situation to call up a prospect that is likely still a year away. There is no pressure to pitch well enough to stay up since that isn't an expectation and he gets to be in the big league clubhouse with everyone.

I have no idea what to think of Philly. There is a lot of talent there. It reminds me of the over optimism of the Wolves last year but I want to say they could win 35+ games in the East. Or more. Of course the main issue will be Embid and Simmons's health. If those guys only play 25 min/gm for 50 games then a lot of that enthusiasm is gone.

Yes, the East could still salvage the offseason if Hayward moves to Boston and Lowry/Ibaka both stay in Toronto. Both of those would be competitive teams out west but probably battling for the 3rd-6th spots. After that it will take an offseason miracle to turn anyone else into a legit team. Wizards have a little potential. I still don't really agree with the pursuit of Millsap. He is great but it will come at the expense of anything resembling a bench. I would much rather collect 2-3 good bench pieces (and not trade any picks or Patton to jettison Aldrich) like CJ Miles, Tucker, Patterson, Ingles, Korver, Gibson, etc... Should the Wolves focus on defense or outside shooting with their remaining acquisitions? For the prices they can pay (if they want 3 pieces) then they probably aren't getting both. I would love to see an outside gunner but I think I prefer adding a couple of blue collar defenders like Tucker (still shot 35% on 2.2 att/gm).

They named the article McEnroe... and the media has been blasting him for the comment so it is exactly about him and being politically correct. Yes, there is a broader issue but if they want that broader issue to be discussed then they should focus on that broader issue.

I am not sure the Wolves would have enough cap room if they signed Millsap and dumped Dieng for no salary. Yes, theoretically enough but they still have a roster to fill out.

I would specifically say that everything that you are talking about has nothing to do with McEnroe then. He is making a comment based on physical match ups. This appears to be another example political overcorrectness where McEnroe can't say she is the best women's tennis player ever without it being a lightning rod for being politically incorrect.

What does the commentary have to do with McEnroe's comments? They have taken his point out of context. Serena Williams isn't the best tennis player ever. She has dominated her era of women's tennis more than any other player male or female but she isn't better than the top men.

And then there was Teague https://www.canishoopus.com/2017/6/30/15906840/nba-free-agency-timberwolves-reach-agreement-with-jeff-teague-ricky-rubio-tom-thibodeau It looks like the Wolves are winning this offseason with these moves. Teague is a better fit for the offense. Not perfect but better and they picked up an okay-ish draft pick (when they likely lose theirs).

This is accurate but not really a true description of his MiLB career. It is the result of TJ at 23 yrs old. He still only has 70 IP at AA/AAA and 260 IP overall. And Melotakis sneaking through waivers probably returns to one of the first points made in this thread. There is more to this story. The no back-to-back games info was something substantial when combined with the velocity loss. I at least have gotten my main complaint answered with the Boshers (awhile ago), Busentiz and Hildenberger taking roles in the bullpen right now. These are guys with MiLB success (both ERA and K rates) and/or velocity. A lot more interesting than several of the pitchers that have been brought up (and added to the 40 man) so far this season.