Greglw3

Every commentator with baseball knowledge has piped in that Urshela is having a spectacular defensive season. Have you been watching the games? And sorry, there is no metric that can measure defense range, the SABR metric UZR? is worthless based on my experience. I think that you have to go all the way back to Brooks Robinson to find a better defensive 3rd baseman than Gio Urshela. We agree to disagree on this but we couldn’t disagree more. But that’s what makes it interesting. Two Twins fans looking at the same player with 360 degrees different opinions. I know, however, that we both sincerely want what it takes to make the Twins a World Series Champion. Heck, I want 1972-1974 Oakland A's kind of success and think it’s possible building around Urshela, Correa, Buxton, Arraez, Polanco and hopefully Larnach, Kirilloff and Miranda although all 3 might not stay if 1 is traded for a top level pitcher.

I’ve sensed that the Twins FO and everybody around believe that Miranda will hit. Latroy Hawkins emphasized this. He’s just in the beginning of his rookie year. Remember how Sano wa s thought to be lacking defensively at third when he first came up. I’ve seen some really poor defensive play from Miranda but also some flashes of a good defensive player. Remember the play at first where he angled into foul territory to avoid collision and shorten the distance to the ball? Painful as it would be, I’d rather trade Kirilloff for a true #1 starter. Also Martin could be available. For me Urshela and Correa should be fixtures for at least the next 5 years with Buxton and Arraez. Lewis and Celestino are both special talents. If they’re going to trade a guy with 5-6 years control, then the #1 coming back, Castillo, Montas or Mahle needs to be extended. I think a World Series Championship is possible this year if Gray and Ryan are moved to #2 and #3. So let’s do it!!!

I believe that Urshela and Correa are two of the main reasons why the Twins have turned it around and are winning now because of their gold glove caliber defense and strong hitting. They are winning players from winning cultures/organizations and should both be extended as part of a potential WS level team. Also add in Sanchez as I read or heard that he also came in and set about imparting "winning culture" habits by talking to some players as needed.

I believe that the Twins will sign Correa t a long term contract and that they can’t afford not to. It’s similar in importance for them to sign Correa to a long term contract as it was with Buxton last offseason. Correa is a franchise player. For those of us who remember, it would be akin to letting Lyman Bostock walk after the 1977 season. Correa likes it here and has expressed an openness to negotiate a long term contract with the Twins. They Twins must extend him and in doing so, they will have a vastly greater chance of winning playoff games and advancing to the World Series and winning it.

I agree, Kirilloff for the long haul and even the rest of the season seems a better bet than Kepler. How about an OF of Kirilloff, Lewis and Larnach when Buxton’s not playing. I like Arraez at 1B. My belief is that there is no better option than a .358 hitter with a .445 OBP (at any position, really). Kirilloff could DH some, especially since Jeffers at DH has been a colossal weakness. And play 1st some but Arraez needs to play every game and bat leadoff. I happen to think a top 2 of Arraez and Celestino would be awesome. Both high average and both very high on base. Depending on whether Buxton can make a big improvement, A top 4 of Arraez, Celestino, Correa and Kirilloff could intrigue. Then Larnach and Sanchez the Urshela. Then you need to fit Lewis in. I believe the Twins should sign Correa long term and play both Lewis and Correa in the same lineup for the long haul. I think trading Kepler well would be a good start. I also love Gordon and think the Twins need to keep him because he’s - and Chris Archer said this recently, even if just dazzled by one game - he called Gordon a 5 tool player. He does have power, when you consider triples and HRs. He generates a lot of bat speed with that whippet quick swing.

Ultimately, I like and OF of Lewis, Kirilloff, Buxton, Larnach and Celestino than any OF with Kepler. I could be wrong.

That trade simulator must have sprung a gasket. No way Laureano is worth that much relative to Montas and Kepler. He has a .691 OPS right now.

You mean Kepler and Martin and not Lewis and Miranda, right? I think Lewis and Miranda have a chance to be the equivalent or reasonably close to it of Gaetti and Hrbek on the 1987 Twins.

I think it’s far less complicated than all that. I think it’s likely his ankle is bothering him again. I thought I heard that mentioned from at least one credible Twins person.

I would not move Royce Lewis. He has superstar written all over him and we have 6 years team control. My proposal for Montas would be Kepler and Martin. If they don’t want Martin, then maybe Wallner. If I gave up Kepler and Wallner, I’d want an agreement from Montas to extend and maybe another player like Laureano. I think they should try something along those lines.

Ladies and gentlemen, he’ll be here all week!

That is the truth * 10,000!

Nick Gordon hit .271 in the month of May and plays spectacular defense in LF. Since May 12, he is hitting .289. Using OPS+ to evaluate Gordon is meaningless because it skews pretty heavily toward power hitters. But power hitter or slugger is just one role on a team. It’s not Gordon’s role. He should maybe be compared against all leadoff hitters since that’s closest to his natural role. Gordon has so many ways to help. A stolen base. A great catch that saves runs. 1st to 3rd. Triple potential. And an ability to play probably 5 positions well. I would not even think about letting him go.

Gordon has been worth a lot for the Twins with a respectable .258 BA, very good speed and bunting ability and superb defense in LF. If he’s let go, he’ll be snapped up so fast, it’ll be alarming. I’m ready for Lewis’ return and permanently. Not as sure about Kirilloff. I think the wrist is still hurting and what happens when the cortisone shot wears off? Another one maybe? The Twins OF situation is getting to be a backlog of talent, which, I guess is good! If I’m honest, I would catch Sanchez most and not DH Jeffers but use that slot for someone like Celestino or Lewis or Kirilloff. I would consider Lewis the #1 CF on Byron Buxton off days and #1 LF on other days. Larnach can get at bats in LF and DH.

I’d bring up Lewis and hopefully for the long haul. Maybe 15 years. Your reasons are the right ones.

I think if he hits .280 - .300 and has an OBP over .400, he can be fine in LF. Last time I looked he has OBP .377 and 18/20 SB. But there’s also a major glut in LF with Gordon, Larnach, Lewis. I don’t think Lewis plays 3B when the Twins have probably the best defensive 3B in the league. Oh, and then there’s Kirilloff. I kinda think Lewis could get enough AB at all 3 OF position, 2B and DH. We’ll see how it all plays out.

With respect, I don’t think you saw Mike Hargrove play regularly enough to realize the extent and extreme of his ritual between every pitch. I lived in Ohio at the time and my brother was a Guardians fan so had heavy exposure to it. The YouTube videos have enough cutting to underrepresent the Human Rain Delay. I would submit that from 1970-2022, he is the slowest batter by far over the course of the game and that there is no one that I know of in MLB now that comes close. Maybe send in an e-mail to current Cleveland TV broadcaster, Rick Manning, to see if he agrees. Hargrove stands and stands and fiddles and stands alone. Obviously this is my opinion but when my brother and I think of someone that slows the game, we always come back to Hargrove and his hideously long delay between every pitch. I’ll admit that a select few pitchers may approach Hargroves delay tactics - they are usually less talented and throws lots and lots of balls.

Byron Buxton is Mike Hargrove? Jorge Polanco is Mike Hargrove? Gio Urshela is Mike Hargrove? Carlos Correa is Mike Hargrove? Gary Sanchez? Nick Gordon? Max Kepler You said EVERYONE is Mike Hargrove but I just named 7 Twins who don’t come even close to Mike Hargrove in an intricate ritualistic extreme type of delay on every pitch,

I watched all those old games when they happened. You either never saw Hargrove when he playedi have no knowledge of Hargrove. Anyone who saw his career would tell you in no uncertain terms there is NO ONE in today’s game remotely as delaying on every pitch as Hargrove. How could I be inventing a game existed that never existed when I followed baseball religiously in the 1960s but especialy in the 70s 80s. Your knowledge of the game is off if you think Seaver, Matlack, Koosman and George Stone (Stone was the 4th starter and 12-3 2.80) were not a better quality pitching staff than any now. Same with Catfish Hunter (21-7 2.04), Vida Blue(6-10 2.80) , Ken Holtzman (19-11 2.51), Blue Moon Odom (15-6 2.50) (they carried the A’s to 3 consecutive World Series)! And the Orioles had two pitching staffs that would be #1 in baseball today. The first was in the 1971 when Jim Palmer, Cuellar, McNally and Pat Dobson (the whole rotation won 20 games), The second was when they had Palmer, Flanagan, Steve Stone and Scott McGregor. That rotation consisted of 3 Cy Young Award winners and a 20 game winner in McGregor! Name me a rotation like that today! It’s not ignorant, that pitching was better 50 years ago, it’s factual. The examples I cited are irrefutable. Those kind of staffs don’t exist today due to expansion which often sees AAA pitchers pitching in the majors. Anybody who follows baseball knows that so many fringe pitchers that never could have pitched in the 70s or 80s are playing due to 12 expansion teams being added. And the part about velocity has nothing to do with it. There were Goose Gossage, Mark Littel, Juan Berenguer, John Hiller, Nolan Ryan, Koosman, Seaver, Vida Blue. They didn’t show the public pitch speeds like they do now. How do you know how fast he threw? How fast did Ryan throw? I do not agree that todays players are better. The rotations I named above prove that the 20 team format concentrated much more pitching talent on single teams than today. Stronger than Mike Schmidt, Jim Rice, George Foster, Cecil Fielder, Reggie Jackson? really? Faster than Maury Wills, Rickey Henderson, Tim Raines, Willie Wilson, Campy Campaneris and Rod Carew. Na I’m just telling you my opinion.

I would never want Martin Perez back on the Twins - very streaky and when he’s bad, he’s very bad and it can last for months.

They should do the opposite and sign Correa long term. He’s already with Sanchez and Urshela taught the Twins a ton about winning and created a winning culture They can have Lewis and Correa in the same lineup.

I don’t know. I’ve been watching all that time. At the time of my first game Killebrew, Zolio Versalles, Jim Kaat, Cesar Tovar were the Twins big stars. I think by and large, the game hasn’t changed in terms of people abusing time limits. There is nobody remotely close to as slow as Mike Hargrove in the batters box. A lot of times, hitters do call time now but it’s because the pitcher was too fast. The spate of those occurrences is unparalleled in my lifetime. And who can forget Gaylord Perry endlessly staring in, the getting some grease from wherever, then standing there and stroking his greased up hair either as a psychological ploy or to get even more substance on the baseball. You may be right about a pitch clock for 60 years but I, as an avid Twins fan, have never seen a pitch clock in MLB and never heard a baseball announcer refer to one in at least 20 years. Never heard Dick Bremer or Roy Smalley, Justin Morneau or any announcer talk about a pitch clock that’s not being enforced. What has added to times of play far more than the few who dawdle on the mound or at the plate is a supreme improvement to the game put in about a decade or more ago and that’s the challenge rule. With multiple challenges in one game and occasions where it takes a long time for NY to make a decision, some games may be expanded by 20 or more minutes. But the rule should be kept. Another difference is that back in the good old days (when I was a kid, there were 10 in the NL and 10 teams in the AL, no playoffs - just the best team in each league went to the WS), the amount of teams playing was smaller by over 1/3. When baseball kept expanding, that brought about a whole lot of pitchers who would not have been in baseball before. They walk people, give up generally more hits. Then when you had staffs like Cuellar, McNally, Palmer, Pat Dobson, the Orioles complete rotation, you had high quality pitchers that sometimes went out and pitched 2 hour games or a little longer. Why? Because they threw strikes, had better quality stuff and could make quick work of an opposing team. The same could be said of the Mets rotations with Koosman, Seaver, Jon Matlack and maybe Gary Gentry. A very high quality rotation that I would argue made for shorter games. One more is the dominant A’s in 72-74 with Catfish Hunter, Vida Blue, Ken Holtzman and swing man Blue Moon Odom with Rollie Fingers closing out games in probably 1/3 the time of the Twins’ Pagan for example.

I think there was only 1 Hargrove. I don’t see baseball within light years of having a league full of Hargroves. I don’t know of many batter delayers but do occasionally see a pitcher who works slow,

Did you or have you seen Mike Hargrove who stepped out of the box took off his batting gloves and put them back on while leaning on his bat and more rituals, then got back in for the next pitch. He was 'The Human Rain Delay'! As a traditionalist and a big fan of baseball history going back to the New York Knickerbockers Baseball Club of the 1850s, I value the lack of a clock in baseball games. Most of my life fellow baseball enthusiasts including nationally prominent ones have relished the fact that "There’s no clock in baseball" and cited that as the one thing that other sports didn’t have that made baseball a relaxed, yet compelling thing of beauty. I think there’s a reason why the song "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" has the line "I don’t care if we ever get back!". I saw a game in Columbus, I think where they had that big ole 30 second clock ominously counting down constantly throughout the game. Did it speed up the game? Yep! Did I enjoy the game more because it was speeded up? No. I detested it. I think the powers that be in baseball are way too worried about the pace of the game. When it’s summer and a team is playing reasonable well, most teams will have either sellouts on the weekends or 30,000 fans or more. Why? Because they love baseball the way it’s always been played. Without a clock or other artificial devices in a nearly obsessive attempt to speed up the game - no matter what the cost to the rich experience of experiencing a game without an expanding list of gimmicks to make it shorter. So, I’m against it but am powerless to do anything about it. It seems MLB thinks they will attract more fans if the game is shorter. In other words they’ll like it more if they get less of the product instead of more! What? For those not prone to be baseball fans, they wouldn’t come if they had 2 balls and 1 strike limits. For those that love the game that provides a timeless, almost meditative experience, especially in games where the game is pulsatingly close and you are lost in it, I think most could do without a pitch clock. As Ernie Banks used to say to demonstrate his love for the game, a game like no other, "Let’s play two!"

Two words to confirm what you’re saying about Arraez at 1B. Rod Carew. Won the MVP as a high average hitter playing 1B in 1977.