TFRazor

Thank you for the information. Now can you provide the same breakdown of economic status in those countries you were saying are better? That way we may compare and contrast.

This is pretty dang funny

I don't believe I once questioned your abilities as a parent. I don't doubt that raising children black offers it's own unique challenges as opposed to raising those of caucasian descent and if you feel I was denigrating the work and effort you have expended then I offer my sincerest apologies as that was not my intent. But to quote you from earlier in the thread, "I think you're reading more into than I actually said". Of course you didn't go off on tangents over the last month about everything wrong with America. However you picked this tangent and here we are. What exactly did I say? That interactions between the police and unarmed Black Americans, there's a 0.1% chance that ends in a fatality? Should I have instead said that there was a 99.9% chance that it wouldn't? Should I have included that police officers are 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a Black American male than that same unarmed male has of being killed by the police. Think I'm the problem all you want. It doesn't make you any less wrong. As for you "shaming" me, I'm not going to take it personally. You're pissed at what happened in Minneapolis and rightfully so.

Isn't that the whole point of this article? It's spent the entire time telling us how we should explain to our children that, contrary to all evidence, the police are out hunting down people due to the color of their skin. In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or dangerous, 234 of which were Black Americans. That share of shootings is LESS that what would be expected of Black American crime rates. In 2018 (last complete statistics we have), Black Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders, committed 63% of robberies, and all that despite the fact they make up only 13% of the population. And honestly it's mostly young males from the Black American population so that 13% is too large. Black women are not typically the ones committing the crimes. According to the Washington Post, police fatally shot 9 unarmed Black Americans and 19 unarmed White Americans in 2019. The Post defines "unarmed" so broadly that one of the suspects had a loaded handgun in his car at the time of his interaction with law enforcement but they still put him in the unarmed category. In 2018, there were 7,400 Black American homicide victims. Assuming a comparable rate of police involved fatalities of unarmed Black American, that's 9 out of 7,400. That's 0.1%. Now maybe I don't understand statistics, but it's pretty easy to figure out that a 0.1% rate doesn't equal systemic racism. And finally, on Memorial Day, 10 Black Americans were killed in drive-by shootings in Chicago. I haven't heard a peep about that from you or anyone on this board. "Complicity by silence" perhaps?

Well when you have the "how to respond to the police" talk with them, I hope you also inform them that they are much more likely to be killed by one of their acquaintances or peers within their community than by the police. That is just the reality. And if anyone questions that I've got no problem providing the statistical evidence.

Well considering the person everyone thinks of as a "kneeler" was a guy who praised Fidel Castro, had no problem wearing a t-shirt with Che Guevara on it, and owns socks with pigs dressed up as cops... Sorry, Brees is a better role model.

I've been wondering that as well. I'm not a Minnesota resident so I'm getting most of this through the filter of the for-profit media. I know Chauvin had multiple previous complaints (I think someone here mentioned 17 but I don't know if that's accurate). Were those complaints filed only by black Americans? If not it seems like he is an equal opportunity piece of human waste.

I've always believed that public sector unions should be gotten rid of. They're ridiculous. You're public employees negotiating against the taxpayer.

I have actually read Robert Reich. Sometimes his analysis can be a stretch and he tends to use a very one sided political lens. It's totally his right to do so but it does sometimes cause him issues in his conclusions. You initially said "We have an obsolete Constitution that does not allow for modification", now you're saying "We will likely never see another amendment". Which one is it? Can you modify the Constitution or not? You didn't respond to my pointing out that presidents do terrible crap all the time. You also didn't respond to the point that the policeman still being on the force was due to inaction by voters in Minneapolis. Those are all lovely countries. I've been to a few but not all and would enjoy finishing off the list. However, in all of those countries, if you were to say something that the majority disagreed with you could be tossed in jail. None of them have the right to free speech enshrined in their founding documents. Sorry, they're not better. "I'm ashamed at the mess of a country I am leaving my children and grandchildren - a country that is financially, politically, racially and morally broken." As for this statement, it is your opinion and you are welcome to it. I would just point out that nowhere on the planet do you have a better chance of making things better than you do in the US.

"We live in the greatest country on earth" is the laziest possible statement ever. The transfer of money and power to the top 1% has effectively destroyed our democracy and turned us into the equivalent of a banana republic." Just because you believe this to be true doesn't mean it is. Funny how people in these various threads that are calling for systemic change seem really adverse to providing evidence to backup their statements. "We have a president who dispels peaceful protesters with chemical irritants for a fake photo opp. We have an obsolete Constitution that does not allow for modification. We have a policeman with at least 17 complaints of misconduct who murders a handcuffed man in broad daylight, with three of his colleagues watching and doing nothing." We had a President who threw critics in jail without habeas corpus. That was Abraham Lincoln. We had a President who so strongly believed that white's were superior that he aired 'Birth of a Nation' in the White House. That was Woodrow Wilson. We had a President who killed US citizens overseas without a trial. That was Barack Obama. The Constitution is totally modifiable. It's been modified 27 times. They're called amendments. If a policeman has 17 complaints and hasn't been fired, that's not a country problem, that's a problem with voters in that area. If they keep electing the same people to office over and over again who allow that to happen, that's on them. Finally, our country isn't perfect. How could it be? It was created and it is maintained by people. That being said, I'd like to know what country/countries you think are better.

You're response to America is a pretty good place is an article which says the wine is kind of crap and it's more fun to travel with another person? It even says Qatar is a better place to start a business. Do you think that is also true for a woman or someone in the LGBT community? Qatar may not, but a couple of countries around there have a fun game where they toss gay people off of buildings. Totally where I'm going to start my own pizzeria. They also only asked 20,000 people across the globe. Current global population is 7.8 billion. That's means they asked .00025641% of the global population what the best country is. Sorry, that article and study itself isn't worth the server space it is currently taking up.

Well considering you know absolutely nothing about me that is an interesting response to my request for evidence. I wasn’t actually taking it personally until you tried to use psychoanalysis through an internet post. Thanks for admitting that you can’t actually prove what you're asserting is true. You really didn’t help out the cause there.

I wasn’t disagreeing with you on the content but was pointing out that there was probably a better way to form your thoughts because, yes, what you said was most certainly “love it or leave it”

I’m not sure the “if you don’t like it, you can leave line” is really a good tack to take. Because then people can just flip it around and point at the protesters and say the same thing. Would you want someone on here dropping” well if the protesters dont like how policing is done in the country they can move somewhere else”? Just my two pennies

Seriously. What you’re asserting is that the entire law enforcement establishment is systemically racist. You don’t fix that by firing a couple of people. You tear it down and start over. IF that is the case, I’ll be right there with you doing it. All I’m asking for is that you provide the evidence that would show that’s what is required. Now please do me a favor, take a step back. If you were a neutral observer reading this, and saw someone ask for evidence that law enforcement is systemically racist, and the response they received was that the request for proof/evidence was “silly”, and that response doesn’t SCARE the hell out of you then we might as well abandon this line right now because we aren’t going to reach a point where either one of us is satisfied with the outcome.

So me asking you for evidence of your assertion that police are systemically racist is now silly? If you can’t prove the positive, why exactly are you asking me to prove the negative? If I asserted to you that I thought the Twins coaching and recruiting system produced the best ball players in the history of baseball, would you just take my word for it? No. You’d ask me to provide the statistical evidence that led me to that conclusion. If we do that for something as trivial as baseball, you’d better believe I’m going to ask you to provide some cold, hard facts to back up your claim that the entire profession of law enforcement is systemically racist. Also, no one has argued that there are no cops who are racist. Both of these things can be true. There can be cops who are racists in a system that isn’t. Saying, as you point out, that if there’s a few lowlifes in the system, the entire system is now corrupt, is the same as saying since some residents of Minneapolis are twins fans, all residents are twins fans. You are painting the many with a brush that is justified for only the few.

Can you prove statistically that what we have is the latter causing the former? Because if not then no, it isn’t a good working description.

I don't think anyone on here is refusing to acknowledge that there's a problem. It seems as if everyone agrees that police brutality, indeed brutality of any kind, is wrong. The disconnect seems to be on the cause of the brutality. There are those that believe it stems from a racist system that targets a particular minority because of their skin color. Others believe the problem stems from that fact that some people (and please forgive my swearing even though I know it's going to come up as an asterisk) are *******s and huge pieces of human excrement who work their way into positions of authority where their evil deeds can affect people. Again, there is no disconnect on the problem. It's on the cause. I'm just afraid that sometimes we can forget that.

Excellent thank you.

Serious question, are you guys planning on donating the money you're getting from the ads I'm seeing on this article to an organization that's trying to affect change? Seems like it would be appropriate. Also is there a list anywhere of such organizations so people could donate?

Ok so just running down the list: "First, the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964. Pretty much everything you listed in the first sentence was illegal 55 years ago and some of it was disappearing 65+ years ago." Yes. We are making progress. After all, if what I listed was disappearing 65 years ago, then by definition we are making progress from where we were before. Also the Civil Rights Act. Again. Progress. "Nowhere did I mention intent; in fact, I very intentionally avoided that word because I don't believe most people are intentionally racist. I'm not assuming people are working from any bad motive other than "comfort". It's awful to feel like individual inaction has led to larger consequence and that discomfort leads to... well, what we see in this thread. And it should feel awful to realize we're all part of a system that perpetuates this violence. That doesn't mean everyone here is a white supremacist in the making, which is why I specifically used the King quotes I selected." If we are a part of a system that perpetuates violence, then logically, the only way for that system to continue is for it to create more people willing to do said violence. Now by context, I assume that you are saying that you believe race is the determining factor on why that violence is being done. If I'm wrong then you have my apology. Now, if the system of violence based on race is perpetuating itself by creating new members who are willing to partake in the system, then yes, You are saying that everyone who joins the organization in question (ie. Cops) is a white supremacist in the making. You believe that the system is creating racists. Hence it could happen to anyone who joins. Why else would they be doing what they are doing? The only logical assumption left is that people are joining said system (ie. Cops) because they either already are racist or because they want to join a system of perpetual violence. That equals intent. You can't have a system without intent. "The point of the article, and my King quotes, are that a person doesn't have to run around screaming the N word to help prop up a system that literally puts its knee on the neck of a black man whenever it feels like it and almost never faces repercussions for doing so." As far as I'm aware, the man responsible for this act is in jail. Where he belongs. He's going to go to trial and I'd be willing to put money on the fact that he'll be found guilty and go to prison for quite some time. As are the men involved in the shooting in Georgia several weeks ago. As is the cop who shot the unarmed black man in South Carolina a couple of years ago. That's how the system is supposed to work. Your premise that there's a system of police targeting people with the intent to do them harm just isn't true. "So, instead of ignoring the problem, let's find our own individual ways to be better. Consider prioritizing politicians who try to enact real change instead of lip service, donate time and money when you can, speak out both publicly and privately to friends and family about how things need to change, be whatever change you can be. There is no right (or perfect) way to do this but if we all help in our own ways and stay pointed in the same general direction on this issue, change can finally come to America." I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this. The issue we come across is that not all agree with your premise that there is a system that is causing these ills. Some believe that what this shows is that there was an ******* who got a power trip from having a gun and a badge. He did something evil and he's going to pay for it. Some find the act of apportioning one man's blame onto a population at large just isn't right.

55 years ago black and white people had separate schools, water fountains, places to sit on the bus and the list goes on and on.... We had a man of African descent elected by the majority of the American people as President for two terms. He left office just 3 years ago. Did we forget that already? Is that "little" progress? Suggesting that people have racist intent, even if it's subconscious, is insulting. It's insulting because the person being accused of subconscious racism has no way of proving they aren't. You can deny until you're blue in the face but the other person will just go, "Well that's what you say, but deep down you are." No wonder these types of convos usually hit a wall. Assuming that the people you're working on a problem with have bad motives because they disagree with your starting premise does nothing to help find a solution. It's soft bigotry. It's ugly. And it should stop.

I personally think he's in. Won't be first ballot but he'll get there.

Thank you for sharing this with us.

Thank you. You've put my thoughts into words much better than I could.