Do the Twins Prefer Positionless Prospects?

I think unless a guy is an absolute high end fit at an up the middle position (cf, ss or catcher) I’d prefer guys have the flexibility to play the other positions as much as possible. Having the ability to cover multiple spots certainly is a benefit, not a curse

Most players, I think, change positions after they're drafted. Probably the fewest shifts are made by average hitting catchers. Frequently good hitting catching prospects are moved to other positions. Players drafted at shortstop seem to be shifted the most and the fastest. A good athlete who can hit, run and throw, I don't think needs to waste a couple more years in the minors learning a new position. Get him some experience at 2 or 3 positions. Send him to the pros and let him work himself into a position.

I can see the strategy, but I do like players who fill a position from beginning to end.  Can you imagine Willie Mays playing anywhere but CF?  Eddie Mathews any place but 3B?  I understand flexibility as long as it does not limit your perspective. 

9 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

I can see the strategy, but I do like players who fill a position from beginning to end.  Can you imagine Willie Mays playing anywhere but CF?  Eddie Mathews any place but 3B?  I understand flexibility as long as it does not limit your perspective. 

Yes, I like Hall of Famers too...the really elite athletes often stick at a top position, but an awful lot of the other players move around.

Add Cuddyer to the list of Twins shortstops-who-weren't-shortstops. It took him a while to work his way to being a successful right fielder.

I think this is just a constant part of baseball. Harmon never had a position, at least not until the DH was created. Rod Carew was moved from second to first. Justin Morneau was a first baseman, but of course that's where you put someone who can't really play any other position so I don't think that counts.

Sorry Cody, I don't like the term position-less players when describing players like Lewis. Because it's not true, they are multi-positional. If their main position is blocked then they jump to another one. To me a position-less player is someone who can hit & can play 1B/ DH but if their position is blocked so they're stuck.

But I know what you mean, yet that's a little different from drafting a big bat at SS or CF knowing full well they won't stick. We have to draft athletic types that can field because if we draft a big bat that can't hit, they're stuck in the lower levels.

Players will shift positions based on how they grow into their bodies.  I know that this may not be a popular view, but once their body is set, I have always felt that they should lock into one position and learn it well.  I believe the reason that we see poor defense is that players have not had enough reps at the position they are at.

I get that we need some flexibility and will always have a few utility players, but when you get an A+ player at a position, no need to move him around to gain flexibility at the expense of good fielding.  Since we have adopted this multi-position strategy, how many gold gloves have Twins players won?  Only Buxton because he has remained at CF and become great there.

I cant even imagine Sano at SS.

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Eddie Mathews played 52 games in LF, and 112 games at 1B in the majors, FYI.

Eddie played in 2391 games - I do not think he was a utility player

Position flexibility is more needed now than ever, in part, because teams carry so many more pitchers than they did in the past.  35 years ago a 25 man roster MIGHT carry 11 pitchers but typically was more likely to carry 10.  Either 40 or 44% of  the roster was pitchers.  Now, with a 26 man roster teams are allowed to carry 13 pitchers and seldom carry fewer than that.  Teams are forcing themselves to have more flexibility among their position players.   As far as forcing Lewis to start working at other positions last year, I believe that was a product of his success when he came to the big leagues.  He hit well enough that they knew they would likely need to count on his bat and his glove was not going to supplant Correa at SS last year.  It's entirely possible that at some point he becomes the shortstop and Correa moves to third with Lee becoming the second baseman.  OR any of a half dozen other position combinations involving other positions (and players) all over the diamond.

3 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

I can see the strategy, but I do like players who fill a position from beginning to end.  Can you imagine Willie Mays playing anywhere but CF?  Eddie Mathews any place but 3B?  I understand flexibility as long as it does not limit your perspective. 

I think that in the end it really comes down too who are they going to have at short, who at other infield positions, and who playing corner outfield spots. For now we are JUST FINE with Correa at short though.

4 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Do you think the Cards should move Jordan Walker to RF? He's a better prospect than anything in the Twins system and the Cards are moving him from 3B to RF. Gunnar Henderson is maybe the best prospect in baseball and the Orioles moved him from SS to 3B when he got to the bigs. And now may move him back to SS. Corbin Carroll could also make an argument that he's the best prospect in baseball, and could win GGs in CF, but he moved to LF when he got promoted. Manny Machado came up as a SS. Trea Turner came up as a SS, moved to CF, moved to 2B, then moved back to SS. Fernando Tatis Jr came up as a SS and is now moving to RF. Juan Soto has bounced back and forth between LF and RF. Kyle Schwarber came up as a C. That's all just off the top of my head. This is just how promotions and roster construction works.

Lewis and Lee may have had shots at being big league SSs, but now the Twins have a platinum glove winner there. Same reason Walker is moving to RF. That Arenado guy in St Louis is pretty good at 3B. I think the moving around of players is too big of a discussion point in general. It's incredibly normal. And fielding a grounder at 3B isn't that much different than fielding them at SS or 2B or 1B. There's nuances to playing positions, but if you can play SS, you can play 3B.

The general idea is you keep guys as high on the defensive ladder as possible, for as long as possible. It's why Martin has been getting reps at SS when almost nobody expects him to stay there. Give him a chance to show what he can do at the top of the ladder because even if he has to slide down a few spots in the bigs he'll have been working on the skills it takes to play those other spots well. It's easier to move from the IF to the OF since being truly good at fielding grounders takes more skill than getting to and catching fly balls. Some guys simply can't judge fly balls well enough, but most elite athletes can. So teams keep guys on the dirt as long as they can (like Walker for the Cardinals) before moving them if they're blocked in the majors. Lee will continue to get time at SS because it's the highest spot he has a chance to play on the ladder. Once his bat is ready the Twins will move him to 3B or 2B if that's what's needed based on the roster.

Teams aren't trying to create utility players, they're trying to keep guys as high on the ladder as they can for as long as they can. Or they're trying to find a spot that the guy could succeed (Julien being the example there). They move the guy around some early in their careers to see what they look like in different spots, and give them an idea of the highest spot on the ladder they could succeed. Then they give them time to work at 1 position (Julien at 2B last year). Then they reassess and make adjustments. It's not all about how their bodies develop. And it's not done on a whim. The guys making these decisions are incredibly good at scouting players and seeing things that give them hope, or doubts, about a player's ability to stick at certain positions.

You make great points, but some are forced to move due to deterioration in their current position.  Like the conversation that CC4 may have to move to 3B at some point.  Nobody moved CC4 there because they happened to not have a third-baseman.

Another point... how did the Sano in the outfield work.  They forced him there and eventually to 3B and FB because they needed him in those spots not because he was proficient there.

Like I said, I agree with several of your points but I still do not like players playing multiple positions.  Maybe over their career due to necessity, but not all over the place in the same year.  Just my humble opinion.

6 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Sorry Cody, I don't like the term position-less players when describing players like Lewis. Because it's not true, they are multi-positional. If their main position is blocked then they jump to another one. To me a position-less player is someone who can hit & can play 1B/ DH but if their position is blocked so they're stuck.

But I know what you mean, yet that's a little different from drafting a big bat at SS or CF knowing full well they won't stick. We have to draft athletic types that can field because if we draft a big bat that can't hit, they're stuck in the lower levels.

All true ...

A positionless player is one that has no defensive value at any position they try to play them at. DRS would suggest Sano but I am not going to look to see who else fits that description and Sano is still waiting for a team to sign with

9 hours ago, big dog said:

Yes, I like Hall of Famers too...the really elite athletes often stick at a top position, but an awful lot of the other players move around.

Add Cuddyer to the list of Twins shortstops-who-weren't-shortstops. It took him a while to work his way to being a successful right fielder.

I think this is just a constant part of baseball. Harmon never had a position, at least not until the DH was created. Rod Carew was moved from second to first. Justin Morneau was a first baseman, but of course that's where you put someone who can't really play any other position so I don't think that counts.

Killebrew played 1B for the last 6-7 years he played defense, through ‘73. DHed in KC…..Oliva DHed in MN. He played LF some - a fair amount at 3B until Rollins was a plus there. Vic Power was gone Killebrew moved to first to preserve his legs - tore a leg muscle stretching at 1B & that move lost him a 1/3 of a season or more in that move.

Anyway, guys that age or get hurt and have reduced range end up at 1B. Luis Arraez - Ernie Banks - yes, Rod Carew - etc……..,,bottom line is, flexibility is great.

Lewis - Lee - Julien - Rodríguez - Martin all options at 2B is a plus. 2-3 of those guys being possibilities at 3B &/or corner OF is great as we fill out the roster for ‘24. GOTTA be better if guys can play BIG chunks of a season at their primary “position to be” prior to promotion into The Show to get them comfortable. 

In my humble opinion, this thread may be the silliest I've read on TD.  The primary goal for any team should be to put players at whatever defensive position that provides the most benefit for the team.  Who cares what position they played when drafted?  Once they sign a contract, it's management's responsibility to determine where they best fit.

7 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Nobody called him a utility player. That's kind of my point. You said "can you imagine Eddie Mathews playing any place than 3B?" And he did play places other than 3B. An entire season's worth of games at other positions. He's not an example of someone who filled a position "from beginning to end." Because the vast majority of players don't just get drafted at 1 position and stay there their entire career. Unless they're already at, or near, the bottom of the defensive ladder.

That's kind of my point here. Players not playing every career game at 1 position doesn't make them "positionless" or "utility players." It makes them baseball players. The Twins aren't trying to make everyone utility players. Players playing a little bit in other places is normal baseball that's been taking place for decades. It's why I think it's a topic that's discussed too much. People seem to think it's a new phenomenon. It isn't. This isn't even directed at you, really, but you made it easier to prove the point with the Mathews example.

The title of this article is click-bait, and misleading. I mean it doesn't even really match the narrative of the article. Then the article goes on to try to make it sound like the Twins are bouncing guys all over instead of just developing them at 1 position. It fails to explain that this is what the vast majority of players go through. The Twins aren't trying to create positionless, or utility, players. They're developing players the same way every other team does.

Not anything new, to the Twins or any other team.  Need only to look as far as Harmon Killebrew.  Played 1B, 3B, LF & RF and no more than 44% of his career games at any of those positions.

16 hours ago, TaterTot said:

I think that in the end it really comes down too who are they going to have at short, who at other infield positions, and who playing corner outfield spots. For now we are JUST FINE with Correa at short though.

I think you are right - SS is the key like C and CF.  If I had to rank the importance of positions I would go:

1. SS
2. C
3. CF
4. RF
5. 3B
6. 2B
7. LF
8. 1B

This off because I am only looking at positions and P would also be the key to success.  I rank 3B over 2B because I think there is a reason that it is called the hot corner.  In the past when ground balls were more common 2B would be higher because of the double play.

Most players drafted, or signed are either SS or CF, if they are not college players.  Only pitchers or catchers out of HS are really put into a position.  Some college guys start to get more put into a position of 1b or corner OF, but that is because they are bat first guys.  Look at a guy like Cuddy, who was drafted out high school as a SS, or Sano who was signed as a SS.  Neither were expected to stick there in majors.  Cuddy moved to 3rd then was decent OF.  

Really, I would say no team likes to lock a guy into a position, because then they may get put behind someone and you decide to trade someone or let someone walk because and settle for a lessor player at a different position. Also, if a guy can play CF, they better be able to play either corner. 

Positionless players is not a good term when grouping these players together. I am fine with Lee, Lewis, Salas, and Martin being grouped together. Each is a high end athlete still holding out out hope of reaching the majors as a shortstop, probably the highest value defensive position other than catcher. Rodriguez is similar as a potential CF who will likely be an above average corner OF as he grows. Julien doesn’t fit here. He is more accurately lumped in with Sabato or other truly “positionless  prospects”. That is not to say he has no value, just that his value comes primarily from offensive production. The same could be said for Rod Carew and Louis Arraez, two players who performed quite well for the Twins. 
it is not likely that the 3 shortstop prospects will all play that position on a regular basis in the bigs. There is a good chance none will if Correa’s ankle holds up. However, all three have the potential of being above average defensive players at other key positions (2B, 3B, CF). 
Just a closing comment regarding youngsters starting out at SS. I recall a comment made a few years ago, following the signing of two young Ss’s. Sano will outgrow the position, but Polanco is good enough defensively to hold his own in the majors right now. Right about Sano; probably overly optimistic regarding Polanco. It can be very tough to predict the defensive home for teenage and early 20’s players. Body development and physical breakdowns play a very big part.