The Uncertain Future of Twins Catching

Catcher as always been a defense first position.  If you get a catcher that can hit and play good defense that is a bonus.  I would prefer not going with both Garver and Jeffers platoon as they do not make a good platoon.  If you want one to be regular guy and other to be backup getting a game or two a week fine.  If you want more of a normal split I would look to have Rortvedt as the second guy.  

I would be open to trading either Garver or Jeffers for the right deal as long as you have a planned backup guy to come in when someone goes down with injury.  

I think the Twins have an excellent future at catching. Garver is still and maybe has just adjusted to the unjuiced ball and covid weird season and Jeffer is still adjusting to the Bigs. Both are fine with high hopes for Rortvedt. Garver is getting older but still our best option at this point. I think Jeffers and Rortvedt need some more time so I'd still like Garver around. 

I agree it makes sense to trade either Garver or Jeffers if it helps the team rebuild quickly. We need to either sign and/or trade for 4 quality starting pitchers somehow. I love Rortvedt's defense and his arm, and am all for giving him a shot. We can get our offense from other positions. I do think Garver could bring back a nice return.

Catchers are really valuable and many are able to last a long time - look at the Cardinals!  So age would not be a critical issue for Garver if he had not been hurt as much as he has.  Injuries take a big toll - ask Mauer.   But a trade of a catcher should bring in a really quality pitcher.  But who has an abundance of SP and needs a catcher?  The Dodgers have the pitching, but also have their catcher.  The Rays always seem to have pitching even if I can't keep track of who their starters are - do they have catching?  Who else?

Miami needs catching and has pitching - the Twins and Marlins line up for a major trade. Rortvedt is a good catcher and can hit .225 and works in a platoon situation. 

Given that catcher is probably the most injury-prone position (except centerfield on the Twins), we really need three catchers. Can Astudillo or someone from the farm be the third if you trade one of the top three?

52 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Definitely worth a call to see if you can pry one of those dudes away, but I don't think Miami is really looking at their pitching as a surplus to move pieces from, I think their plan is to build through pitching like Cleveland.

I agree with this, but I believe the Twins need to attempt to overwhelm Miami with an offer of multiple current MLB players. Unless the Twins are looking to 2023/2024 to compete, they will need to add players to bolster their talent. The offense has not been particularly productive and it seems counterintuitive to subtract several of Jeffers, Garver, Sano, Arraez, Larnach, Kepler, or Buxton, but the path to victory runs through pitching. An important question regards how Miami views Jeffers or Garver and whether two to three additional players might entice them to part with what we need. 

The Twins are pretty obviously rebuilding in 2022 or they wouldn't have traded Berrios. That means trading the older, more expensive player (Garver) as they look toward competing in 2023. Garver will be 32 in 2023. The 2022 catcher free agent market is not good. A contending team will want Garver's bat at catcher.

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

The Twins are pretty obviously rebuilding in 2022 or they wouldn't have traded Berrios. That means trading the older, more expensive player (Garver) as they look toward competing in 2023. Garver will be 32 in 2023. The 2022 catcher free agent market is not good. A contending team will want Garver's bat at catcher.

If that was truly the case, they would have traded more than Berrios.

Also, Garver isn't making that much so the "more expensive" argument doesn't carry much weight in that regard.

Let the roll with both again next year unless we can get a solid pitching prospect for one of them in trade.  Then re-evaluate again next fall.

If the Twins catching "has an uncertain future" [as the article's title suggests], why would you expect to get a decent return in a trade?

We are stuck with it. Garver looks like he is rebounding. Even as a defensive liability, he proved to be valuable with the bat in 2019.

I don't have a list, but I'm sure there are some very good and very expensive FA pitchers available this winter......or do what they always do - take a shot at a lower talent-level pitcher. Target field can be hard on left-handed hitters.........making it a right-handed pitcher park. Lots of them out there.

Someone wrote - getting rid of Berrios meant they are rebuilding. Whether that's true or not...........they are rebuilding a pitching staff. So, maybe Garver is gone. Jeffers [rt hand bat] and Rortvedt [left-hand bat] may be the catching duo of 2022.

Jeffers and Garver isn't an ideal platoon, but honestly it's a pretty good platoon and there's no reason to break it up unless someone really blows them away with an offer.

Jeffers was definitely hampered by the playing time split with Garver, who crushes lefties so much that you do want him in the lineup against them as much as possible.  When Garver was out in June and July and Jeffers got to see a lot more lefties, his OPS was over .800.  If Garver is out, I want that kind of production from his backup, which is not going to happen if the backup plan is like a 50-50 split with Rortvedt and some other defense first AAAA catcher.  Even if Jeffers has to face a lot more righties than is ideal in the second catcher role, he'll probably still provide better offense than Rortvedt in the same role.  I was very pleasantly surprised by how well Rortvedt performed in AAA, but his overall minor league track record is much more in line with his major league numbers.  I think he's still a valuable asset for his defense, and in a platoon with Jeffers or Garver he can face basically all righties giving him as much of a shot to hit as possible.

I also think Garver might start a slow transition toward 1B/DH.  The injuries have started to pile up, and he's proven he has the bat for it.  I hope they leave the DH spot open next year to rotate through Garver, Donaldson, Arraez, and a few others.  That should give Jeffers a bigger role to succeed in.

I don't know if the Twins can get anything for Jeffers, but he is the odd man out for me.  Huge disappointment with the bat this year.  And the little I saw, thought his defense was worse than his bat.  Those of you who watched a lot of games may feel different, if so, let me know.  

So I keep Garver and Rortvedt, while working on a third man either with the Twins (Astudillo?) or at St. Paul.  Ideally, that third guy would have some MLB experience, which La Tortuga has as does Telis.  What the Twins are lacking, however, is that good catching prospect at Hi-A or AA, someone who will be ready to replace Garver two or three years from now.  And those good catching prospects are so very rare.

People seem to forget that Jeffers is also a rookie this year. He only started 18 games as a major league catcher in 2020. In 2019 he caught 17 games at AA ball and 57 games at Adv A. His total time in AAA was the 13 games he was sent down for this year. He was pushed through the system pretty fast.

I think the future catching duo for the Twins is Jeffers and Rortvedt. Garver is a good hitting catcher with power and is probably one of the most tradable players the Twins have.  He is also 6 years older than both Jeffers and Rortvedt. There would be risk in trading Garver but there is always risk in trades. There is also not room for all 3 on the major league roster.

8 hours ago, MN_ExPat said:

If that was truly the case, they would have traded more than Berrios.

Also, Garver isn't making that much so the "more expensive" argument doesn't carry much weight in that regard.

They did trade more than Berrios. They traded Cruz, Happ and Robles. They should have traded Pineda.

Buxton, Garver and Rogers were all injured at the trade deadline.

12 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

But who has an abundance of SP and needs a catcher?

Braves

I like the situation the Twins have at catcher right now. Garver as the starter with Jeffers as the backup and Rortvedt as quality depth. Rortvedt's bat has taken a while to adjust to each level, similar to Nick Gordon, and I believe Rortvedt may be able to make the adjustments to be a serviceable every day or very good backup catcher.

Since none of the three are without significant faults, their trade value isn't sky high so I don't think they're the spot you look when it comes to adding talent.

13 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Garver's bat is good enough that I might now be ok with him moving to full time DH if it keeps him the lineup more.

That is a terrible idea. The Twins would be much better off trading Garver to a team that wants him behind the plate than they would be using Garver as their full time DH. He's still an average defender at catcher. As a DH he loses half his value.

11 hours ago, DJL44 said:

They did trade more than Berrios. They traded Cruz, Happ and Robles. They should have traded Pineda.

Buxton, Garver and Rogers were all injured at the trade deadline.

True, they did.  Won't argue that point at all. 

Keep in mind though, they didn't have to trade Berrios or Cruz.  Teams stepped up and made offers that you'd be stupid to turn down in an off year (Happ and Robles honestly don't count though... both were exceptionally underperforming vets on minor deals that didn't matter if they came or went.  Besides, Gant looks like a much more usable option at this point for the Twins).

• Unless Buxton refuses to resign or extend with the Twins, he will still be here (note, I'm not saying it won't cost a pretty penny, but that's one of those deals you just make as a team).
• Rogers may or may not have been traded.  Had he been healthy, I believe some team would have ponied up the prospects for an over pay for him.  And again, in an off year you'd be foolish not to at least consider it.
• Garver... like many others have said (to paraphrase) healthy or not, he wasn't going anywhere unless a team made a stooopid offer.  Again, if someone had made that type of offer, you have to at least listen to it.

Considering the returns the Twins got for Berrios and Cruz alone, it makes those trades worthwhile.  There's still plenty of talent left at the MLB level that with a couple of solid additions in the off-season, this team will be fine next year.

Unless they aren't... but it's baseball, these things happen.

Edit:

Ok, forgot that Cruz's deal was expiring at the end of the year, so that makes his trade even more of a shrewd deal.

29 minutes ago, MN_ExPat said:

There's still plenty of talent left at the MLB level that with a couple of solid additions in the off-season, this team will be fine next year.

Sure. I bet they can win 80 games if everything goes right. That's a 10% improvement.

The other assets (Rogers, Garver, Buxton) that could have been traded at the deadline were all injured.

The pitching staff has five pitchers returning with a WAR > 0.5. Bailey Ober is currently the staff ace. They need to add 3 starting pitchers as good as Berrios and three relievers as good as Rogers if they actually want to win a playoff series. That's more than a couple solid additions, that's a complete overhaul. To get pitchers as good as Berrios in trade will cost at least as much as they got for Berrios. Signing three starting pitchers that good in free agency will add $75M to the payroll.

2022 is a rebuilding year. If it that didn't happen after trading Berrios it certainly happened when they lost Maeda for the season.

I would expect that with the poor season the Twins had just about anyone is on the trading block.  Unless of course they blame it all on the injuries and they do little or nothing this off season and HOPE things are better next year.  Good luck with that!  As for getting a haul or teams overpaying the Twins in this summers trades:. So far only Joe Ryan has contributed.  Before declaring these deals steals for the Twins let's wait and see if these are prospects or suspects.

48 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Sure. I bet they can win 80 games if everything goes right. That's a 10% improvement.

The other assets (Rogers, Garver, Buxton) that could have been traded at the deadline were all injured.

The pitching staff has five pitchers returning with a WAR > 0.5. Bailey Ober is currently the staff ace. They need to add 3 starting pitchers as good as Berrios and three relievers as good as Rogers if they actually want to win a playoff series. That's more than a couple solid additions, that's a complete overhaul. To get pitchers as good as Berrios in trade will cost at least as much as they got for Berrios. Signing three starting pitchers that good in free agency will add $75M to the payroll.

2022 is a rebuilding year. If it that didn't happen after trading Berrios it certainly happened when they lost Maeda for the season.

I think the Twins could get by just fine with just 2 top of the rotation arms. With Dobnak, Ober, Ryan, Gant, Winder and Balazovic potential starters out of next spring, I don't see the need for a 3rd free agent. Maeda is still a question mark for mid season. The semi-experimental procedure to add a brace to his elbow could have him back as early as June (though I'd take odds he's not back until much later, if at all).

The bullpen had good pieces this year and it showed in the second half. Rogers, Alcala, Gant, Duffey, Minaya, Moran and Thielbar all had FIPs of 3.51 or lower. Most of those names should be back. Adding a couple arms to replace Colome and Coulombe can get the Twins to where they need to be on that.

While the Twins shopped Buxton and Rogers hard, they had made what they felt was their best offer to Buxton and Rogers was going to be expensive. I don't really know what the front office's plan was, but for teams out of the running, it's standard procedure to price check their top trade assets. I don't recall any analysts really having a clear view what the Twins' plans were, and I know as a casual hack, I had absolutely no clue, haha.

I think you're taking a bit of an overly pessimistic view for the moment. Just have to wait and see what happens. If the new CBA is signed before the old one expires, we'll know the Twins' intents before mid December, I'd think.

It's a fun paper exercise on values, who is wanted, trade partners, etc.  Bottom line as a fan, all the comments are a good gauge on what we would like to see happen.  I don't see Garver and Jeffers being moved.  Garver has issues with injuries, Jeffers filled in quite nicely, regardless of the .198 avg to date.  He is strong behind the dish, has some easy power and is serviceable.  Rortvedt is solid behind the dish but I don't see see his bat being better than the other two.  I"m not hung up on righty/lefty options to give guys a break.  Jeffers hit lefties fairly well this year and Garver can hit both options. If we play the spreadsheet statistical managerial role of Rocco we are in trouble.

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

I think the Twins could get by just fine with just 2 top of the rotation arms. With Dobnak, Ober, Ryan, Gant, Winder and Balazovic potential starters out of next spring, I don't see the need for a 3rd free agent. Maeda is still a question mark for mid season. The semi-experimental procedure to add a brace to his elbow could have him back as early as June (though I'd take odds he's not back until much later, if at all).

The bullpen had good pieces this year and it showed in the second half. Rogers, Alcala, Gant, Duffey, Minaya, Moran and Thielbar all had FIPs of 3.51 or lower. Most of those names should be back. Adding a couple arms to replace Colome and Coulombe can get the Twins to where they need to be on that.

While the Twins shopped Buxton and Rogers hard, they had made what they felt was their best offer to Buxton and Rogers was going to be expensive. I don't really know what the front office's plan was, but for teams out of the running, it's standard procedure to price check their top trade assets. I don't recall any analysts really having a clear view what the Twins' plans were, and I know as a casual hack, I had absolutely no clue, haha.

I think you're taking a bit of an overly pessimistic view for the moment. Just have to wait and see what happens. If the new CBA is signed before the old one expires, we'll know the Twins' intents before mid December, I'd think.

That is a very rosy take on a very inexperienced starting rotation and a mediocre bullpen. Even with that optimism you're just adding two top line starters and two top line relievers instead of my plan of adding three of each. Adding those players as free agents is still going to cost $65M in payroll.

This pitching staff is really bad, only better than the Orioles in the American League.  In 5 seasons for this front office the best free agent pitcher they have added is Michael Pineda.

4 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Sure. I bet they can win 80 games if everything goes right. That's a 10% improvement.

The other assets (Rogers, Garver, Buxton) that could have been traded at the deadline were all injured.

The pitching staff has five pitchers returning with a WAR > 0.5. Bailey Ober is currently the staff ace. They need to add 3 starting pitchers as good as Berrios and three relievers as good as Rogers if they actually want to win a playoff series. That's more than a couple solid additions, that's a complete overhaul. To get pitchers as good as Berrios in trade will cost at least as much as they got for Berrios. Signing three starting pitchers that good in free agency will add $75M to the payroll.

2022 is a rebuilding year. If it that didn't happen after trading Berrios it certainly happened when they lost Maeda for the season.

Then we agree to disagree.  So be it... but you make me sad.

And when we speak of you, we may still speak fondly, for we are nothing if not forgiving and generous.