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  • Safe or Sorry: The Twins Have Two Pitchers to Question


    Ted Schwerzler

    The Minnesota Twins are one of the most forward thinking front offices in baseball. They employ a bevy of intelligent people that use ample amounts of information in order to put the best team on the field. Now coming to the final month, they have two players that couldn’t be from more opposite schools of thought.

     

    Image courtesy of Jeffrey Becker-USA TODAY Sports

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    This offseason Derek Falvey made former Los Angeles Angels pitcher Dylan Bundy his first pitching acquisition when he was signed to a one-year deal worth $6 million. An $11 million team option was tied to 2023, and the hope for the Twins was that they could recapture the 3.29 ERA (and 2.95 FIP) that had Bundy finish 9th in the American League Cy Young voting during the 2020 season.

    That would be a difficult task considering how bad he was last season for Los Angeles. Bundy owned a 6.06 ERA along with a 5.51 FIP. He was allowing two homers every nine innings, and he pitched in just 90 2/3 innings. The velocity actually ticked up to 90.8 mph last year, but the whiff rate dropped below 10% for the first time in his career.

    Still, Minnesota’s plan was a value play. Bundy, alongside the eventual signing of Chris Archer, represented an opportunity to squeeze something out of nothing at the back end of the pen. To date, Bundy has thrown slower, struck out fewer batters, and his Statcast page makes Minnesota look warm in January. 

    Capture.PNG.9206e54fb9615887a98c837ca8b54bce.PNG

    The notable reality here is what’s happened. Sure, Bundy doesn’t put the ball by anyone, and his start is hardly worth making note of. He does generate a strong chase rate and limits walks, but based on expected outcomes, regression should hit him hard. Yet, it hasn’t. He owns a FIP in line with his ERA, and an expected ERA of 3.98. No matter how you cut it, the stuff doesn’t match the results, but the job has gotten done. I wouldn’t guess Minnesota is itching to hand out the $11 million in 2023, but they’ve got to be happy with the surplus value this season.

    On the flip side, there’s Emilio Pagan. Acquired from the San Diego Padres for Taylor Rogers just before Opening Day, Pagan was picked as a closer type with hopes of regaining his 2019 stuff with Tampa Bay. It began with a poor first outing against the Seattle Mariners, and the reliever has never recovered.

    Pagan is under team control through 2023, certainly part of the allure in acquiring him. He can be tendered a deal through arbitration and won’t break Minnesota’s bank. The problem is that the results have culminated to the tune of 5.04 ERA, 2.0 HR/9, six losses, and seven blown saves. In short, he’s largely been the difference between winning or losing the American League Central division.

    The reason Pagan continues to be given a leash is that everything except the results says he should be good. Velocity is up, his xFIP is just 3.30, he owns nearly a 36% chase rate and gets whiffs 14% of the time. In an age where velocity is king and misses matter, Pagan checks those boxes. His Statcast page shows a nearly inverse result of Bundy’s. Pagan has everything going for him until wood meets leather, and then it’s an absolute nightmare.

    Pagan.PNG.feaf420aa872d052400199c040aa8af6.PNG

    It’s been a very interesting situation for the Twins to manage this year. Rocco Baldelli has constantly been hamstrung with a bullpen including an unusable pitcher in Pagan. He’s been kept around on the hopes that tweaks will lead to expected or desired results becoming reality. Bundy isn’t the piece you build around, but he’s not the reason you lose now. Pagan is the type you hope to have become an asset, but you’ll take your lumps along the way.

    This season Minnesota may have tied themselves to the wrong horse for long enough that it bites them. An analytical approach is how you seek to gain value and create sustainability, but there’s more than enough room for hiccups along the way. For a team threading the needle so tightly, we’ll have to see whether whatever happens in 2023 was worth whatever took place in 2022.

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    Excellent article.
     

    I didn’t want him, but Bundy has been a pleasant surprise.

    However, IMO Pagan is the absolute worst kind of pitcher you can have around. Someone whose “stuff” looks so good that he keeps getting innings despite the fact that he fails at a pitcher’s actual job-getting outs.

    Sad truth is, he was less effective at getting outs than Duffey or Smith, but those guys were cut for ineffectiveness. The even-worse pitcher stays around to keep sinking the team because he looks better failing.

    “Stuff” can be deceiving.

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    Ryan Pressley's results badly trailed almost all of his metrics during the season that he was traded to Houston. Next thing you know, he's a reliable late-inning guy--often a closer--for a team in the World Series. Not saying Pagan will turn out to be like that but this helps me to understand why the team is willing to keep him on the roster.

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    To me Bundy is definitely the better of the two.  Who knows, maybe they will both be back.  Maybe they will both be gone.  To me Pagan is the prime example of analytics and projections gone mad.  Does whiff rates, missed bats,  spin rates really matter if you can't get anyone out.  Duffey and Smith were released due to ineffectiveness but we're both better than Pagan.  Whatever happened to the "eye test" evaluation of players.  Anyone that watches must realize he is terrible.  He has been very directly involved in 13 of the bullpen losses.  But Pagan and Baldelli say he's pitching fine.  What games have they been watching?  Pagan should have been released a long time ago.  Baldelli should go right with him.

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    It shall be all about the money.

    Is BUNDY worth $11 million? I would think not. He was a good bargain pitcher for half THAT amount. COnsidering the trouble the Twins were having in drawing interest from free agents. Glad we didn't get stuck with...Pineda.

    Is PAGAN worth $5-6 million? At this point, I would rather reinvest in Fulmer, if he is interested. Pagan is arbitration, so you have to pay him. If the Twins release him, I don't see him getting that, or even a multi-year deal, as a free agent. You can always carry a pitcher as a reclaim project, but the Twins had three that they couldn't trust in the end that promised better stats than they gave us. Two are gone (Duffey and Smith). Both of those pitched, I feel, better than Pagan, yet I don't miss either. As said, would reinvest the money in another.

    The Twins also have to take a hard look at DOBNAK shortly. He got bombed in his first AAA offering. Quite frankly, the Twins could run him thru waievrs and outright him to AAA St. Paul this season. Doubtful that anyone will absord his long-term contract. He would still be a abckup possibility going into 2023, but not eating a 40-man spot. I ee no reason to add him to the Twins roster for a run towards the post-season, especially with Peacock and Moran pitching better at St. Paul.

    It is all going to boil down to money. URSHELA has been a good player for the Twins this season. But can you take the $8-9 million you might have to pay him and put it elsewhere. Does he bring anything special to the table. Of course, that hunges on who plays first base (Arraez or Miranda). But the real question is the $35m of CORREA, that is one nice hunk of change. The Twins can afford another year of that dollar, and Correa may wish to build up his worth (is the shortstop market better for 2024 for him than next season...considering). When would Lewis be abck? Is Palacios are worthy write-in for much of a season? Should Lewis be groomed for shortstop or elsewhere, considering the Twins have Lee, Martin, DeAndrade on their top prospects list, too. Who knows if they will finally give up on Javier?

    And SANCHEZ is going to free up a hunk of change. Happily he is a free agent. Do the Twins attempt to bring him back, or will he be able to still demand $10m or so.

    PAGAN and BUNDY will both probably be gone. I'm not sure I would gamble that PAGAN would comeback strong to even be a tradechip if the Twins have a rough 2023. Lopez is the closer going fourth. Duran could be the future closer if the Twins don't try to make him a starter (would you?).

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    I have to believe both will be gone at the end of the year. I like Bundy's style for the most part.  I like the way he attacks hitters despite the lower velocity fastball.  I think he is a solid 5th starter but honestly I think the Twins will pass on bringing him back next year.

    Pagan just hasn't been good in a long time and I would hate to lose a player in Rule V to save Pagan.  The Twins need to build a solid pen and he just doesn't have that great of control and he allows HR's like no one I have ever seen out of the pen.  It is past time to move on and give him a fresh start.

    The Twins are going to have some tough decision to make at some point on the 40 man.  They traded for Mahle  and have Gray and Ryan locked in as well.  They have Maeda,  Winder, Paddack, Ober and Dobnak set to come back from the IL and will count against the 40 man at some point and then they have Balazovich, Enlow, Strotman, Sands and Henriquez all sitting on the 40 man currently as dead weight.  If they want to keep them then they need to add SWR, Canterino and Varland as well. That is 15 pitcher's right there not even including the pen taking 40 man space.

    Hopefully they choose the right arms as we are going to need better arms to compete with Cleveland next year.  I don't think Bundy, Pagan or Archer are difference makers for this team next year so if it were me I would let them go.

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    13 minutes ago, Rosterman said:

    Duran could be the future closer if the Twins don't try to make him a starter (would you?).

    Tough question, the most innings he ever pitched is 115 in 2019, so would it take him a year or more to build up to a 150 inning pitcher? I can't see him being more than a 5 inning type pitcher next year, like Ober has been and would they really double his innings next year?

     

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    Pitcher A:

    image.png.5d3205a97d09e39ce0b6df4c5d0027f6.png

    Pitcher B:

    image.png.6b3447d60d3f1396db874eb45a684dfc.png

    Pitcher ?

    image.png.364530e96f362bc10b0b3eeb246cea5e.png

    (The start date is June 12 for all three pitchers. The dates just indicate the first time they actually pitched after that point.)

    Q: So, based on the last couple months, which two would be your choices to start the first two games of a playoff series?

     

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    A: If, like me, you chose A and B, you chose Bundy and Gray over Ryan.

    Point being, I don't get the Bundy Hate on TD (not necessarily in this thread, but elsewhere). He's arguably been our best starter the past two months, and we'd probably be out of the race without him. 

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    I have a naïve hypothesis about Pagan, so let me share it and then you all can shoot it down.

    Given his shaky control, he throws 4-5 pitches in most at-bats. The metrics other than actual contact ones are decent. Maybe this is because in each at-bat he throws 3-4 really good pitches, and they count in many of the non-contract metrics (velocity, spin rate, etc.) but all too often he gets behind in the count and mixes in a meatball that gets killed. Batters know that they can wait for the hittable pitch and then crush it, or maybe take a walk, Does this make sense to anyone except me?

    When I was teaching budding economists, I always stressed the need to look beyond any single summary statistic about the economy to try to interpret what was consistent with the multi-dimensional data available. (Great current example: GDP is stagnant but the labor market is very hot.) This seems like a similar case of needing to look at exactly what each metric is saying rather than just seeing a lot of blue or a lot of red on the chart.

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    2 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

    Ryan Pressley's results badly trailed almost all of his metrics during the season that he was traded to Houston. Next thing you know, he's a reliable late-inning guy--often a closer--for a team in the World Series. Not saying Pagan will turn out to be like that but this helps me to understand why the team is willing to keep him on the roster.

    Could it be Houston is better coaching and player development.  I would give the Twins 1 star

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    15 minutes ago, PDX Twin said:

    I have a naïve hypothesis about Pagan, so let me share it and then you all can shoot it down.

    Given his shaky control, he throws 4-5 pitches in most at-bats. The metrics other than actual contact ones are decent. Maybe this is because in each at-bat he throws 3-4 really good pitches, and they count in many of the non-contract metrics (velocity, spin rate, etc.) but all too often he gets behind in the count and mixes in a meatball that gets killed. Batters know that they can wait for the hittable pitch and then crush it, or maybe take a walk, Does this make sense to anyone except me?

    When I was teaching budding economists, I always stressed the need to look beyond any single summary statistic about the economy to try to interpret what was consistent with the multi-dimensional data available. (Great current example: GDP is stagnant but the labor market is very hot.) This seems like a similar case of needing to look at exactly what each metric is saying rather than just seeing a lot of blue or a lot of red on the chart.

    I think you're on to something.  I also noticed this trend with Pagan.  Good stuff center cut will still get hit and if you cannot hit the corners then the eventual outcomes are a walk or a barreled up ball.  That's what happens to Pagan.

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    8 minutes ago, rv78 said:

    I would say Ryan's numbers are skewed a bit due to Rocco keeping him in the game against San Diego when he gave up 10 runs.

    Fair enough -- take out that one and Ryan is at 3.44 during this period.

    But if you also let Bundy take out a clunker, he falls to 3.07. 

    (But to clarify -- my point isn't so much about Ryan struggling, but about that Bundy has actually been better than he's given credit for.)

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    5 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

    Fair enough -- take out that one and Ryan is at 3.44 during this period.

    But if you also let Bundy take out a clunker, he falls to 3.07. 

    I did not find the clunker you are referring to from Bundy in the last 2 months. Also, you have to take into consideration which Team they are facing? Ryan's clunker was against a playoff caliber team. Has he pitched more games against those kind of teams verses Bundy? Or has Bundy gotten the luxury of facing bad teams more often like KC and Det, more so than Ryan? Lots of variables to consider.

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    If spin rates and pitch velocity were the only things that mattered, Pagan would be great. He's not. You can have the best spin rate in the world and the highest velocity in the world, but if the hitters know when and where the ball is going to be, they're going to put it in the seats. Very few pitchers are Mariano Rivera who can throw a single pitch with devastating results.

    Deception is important. If hitters know what's coming, they're going to crush it.
    Placement is important. Hang a curve in the meat of the strike zone and hitters will crush it.
    Velocity is valuable. Obviously, faster means less time to react.
    Spin rate is valuable. The faster is spins, the more it moves, but when it moves can depend a lot on the grip and throwing motion. If a ball consistently moves in a nice arc, hitters will crush it. Later break is much better.

    Bundy may not have huge velocity, but there's a big velocity and movement separation between his pitches. Lefties struggle to figure out whether it's a changeup, curve or a 4 seamer and righties need to figure out if it's a 4 seamer, sinker or slider. If they all look the same coming out of the hand, it's just a guessing game. Guess wrong and it's a strike or mediocre contact. Because Bundy doesn't issue free passes, and he can get away with allowing more hits. WHIP is what's important and Bundy's WHIP is 1.21 (good enough).

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    27 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

    Fair enough -- take out that one and Ryan is at 3.44 during this period.

    But if you also let Bundy take out a clunker, he falls to 3.07. 

    (But to clarify -- my point isn't so much about Ryan struggling, but about that Bundy has actually been better than he's given credit for.)

    Your post is interesting.  Thank you. I would tend to look at season long statistics, or those that are most current--last 3-4 weeks--as every player/pitcher has up and down periods with respect to their performance.  The thing every manager would like to avoid is starting a pitcher who is struggling currently, hence the most recent data is relevant.  This in no way detracts from your premise about Bundy--I have been a critic and I agree with you that he has done better than he is given credit for.   

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    It is surprising to me that so many people look at this like a video game. These are real people with real human emotions. That is critical to what happens, especially in big situations no less playoffs. Pagan has an extemely low probability of ever being a clutch pitcher again. Its like giving your poor driving teenager the keys every night and being surprised she keeps getting in accidents because she got 100 percent on her driving exam.

    I cant remember sacrificing so much (loss after loss). Also is cruel to Pagan. Getting booed off the field half the time you walk out there cant be fun at all. He clearly cares a lot. Just failing FAR to much.

    If the season ended today I would look back at this season as the year Pagan cost us a playoff spot. Thats on him, but its also on Baldelli and the Front Office.

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    I've always been a big fan of Bundy and was really glad the Twins grabbed him this year. My guess is that they give him the 1m buyout and try to resign him for more than 4m but less then 11. Other teams might be interested in him, too. 

    I was ok with the trade that brought Pagen here even though the results haven't been great so far. I can't see this team letting Pagen go at this point though. He's cheap enough where they can't really let him go and I'm sure they think that he's really close to turning the corner.

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    2 hours ago, IndianaTwin said:

    Pitcher A:

    image.png.5d3205a97d09e39ce0b6df4c5d0027f6.png

    Pitcher B:

    image.png.6b3447d60d3f1396db874eb45a684dfc.png

    Pitcher ?

    image.png.364530e96f362bc10b0b3eeb246cea5e.png

    (The start date is June 12 for all three pitchers. The dates just indicate the first time they actually pitched after that point.)

    Q: So, based on the last couple months, which two would be your choices to start the first two games of a playoff series?

     

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    A: If, like me, you chose A and B, you chose Bundy and Gray over Ryan.

    Point being, I don't get the Bundy Hate on TD (not necessarily in this thread, but elsewhere). He's arguably been our best starter the past two months, and we'd probably be out of the race without him. 

    This is interesting and I agree Bundy has outstripped my expectations. However this time period does cherry pick Ryan's worst stretch after COVID. 

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    46 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

    I've always been a big fan of Bundy and was really glad the Twins grabbed him this year. My guess is that they give him the 1m buyout and try to resign him for more than 4m but less then 11. Other teams might be interested in him, too. 

    I was ok with the trade that brought Pagen here even though the results haven't been great so far. I can't see this team letting Pagen go at this point though. He's cheap enough where they can't really let him go and I'm sure they think that he's really close to turning the corner.

    Three yeas of these results. Worst WPA of any RP over that time. He's not turning a corner. He's not. 

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    This was a fun post with fun to read comments.  Keep it coming.  And I think Bundy has done a better than expected job.  I would be fine if he is here next season.  I would be surprised if his option is picked up.  But not too surprised.  I think a 1 year 8-9 million is right for him.  That is close enough to 1 million the Twins might just pick up his option. 

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    7 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

    I do not see the Twins picking up Bundy's option at $11MM. It's just too much to pay for even a solid #5. I also think Bundy might turn this season into a 2 year contract somewhere. It's tough to gauge what the market will look like.

    Bundy would have been a lot cooler if we had called him either Al or Ted

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    6 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

    Ryan Pressley's results badly trailed almost all of his metrics during the season that he was traded to Houston. Next thing you know, he's a reliable late-inning guy--often a closer--for a team in the World Series. Not saying Pagan will turn out to be like that but this helps me to understand why the team is willing to keep him on the roster.

    Our analytics and coaching staff just needs to find better Stick 'Em products.

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