ewen21

They got immunity so they could talk, but nothing came out. No admission, no explanation of what actually went down here. What is the precedent now? The league should start questioning people on the periphery. Start with those who wired up the system if the players won't come clean

I am thoroughly disgusted by the whole thing. It extends beyond the cheating scam. The reaction by the league office, the Astros and people like David Ortiz is almost as disheartening. Even Cuddyer's quotes in the Star Tribune were ridiculous to me. Going after Fiers "integrity" based off when he chose to our the Astros is freaking pointless. What we should be wondering is: Why aren't these players being punished? I really don't want to hear the "we can't prove the level of involvement" because we already know the scam happened. I don't see why key players aren't questioned. I don't see how presumed innocence protects all of the Astros who played on that 2017. Baseball obviously feels it is bad for business getting to the bottom of this mess so they are going to allow the players to skate. This is a big problem for me as a fan. Stealing signs is part of what has gone down in baseball forever. There is a distinction that needs to be made here, though. Perhaps now is the time to put in specific clauses in contracts where owners can opt out. Players can opt out for any reason, so why not owners? If you are arrested and charged with a crime or caught in something like this the organization should have the same luxury to opt out. Let them get the league minimum while they sit on the sidelines. They can either take it or fight it. I don't have the answers, but something has to be done. Heck, let the players union vote anonymously on this issue. Something better than no punishment for the players.

Who cares if the act of exposing the Astros cheating is one of integrity or not? It had to be done. Were his allegations false? No, they were not. So what are we really talking about here? Nothing much beyond your definition of the word integrity and whether or not Mike Fiers has it. Who cares? We might as well talk about whether or not he has cool facial hair if we are going to nitpick about his integrity. What about the game of baseball and how they granted these Astros players immunity and fired non players? Does that register on your integrity meter? If his claims were being disputed by the Astros then it would be a conversation worth having. Ortiz is being a buffoon. Anyone who cares about integrity in baseball should be a whole lot more concerned with what an entire organization did as opposed to the player who "snitched" about it. All Ortiz tried to do was change the conversation. He failed because the Astros are going to be excoriated and sullied on the road and I will love every minute of it. And by the way, you didn't acknowledge the most crucial part of what Ben said with regards to whistleblowers. Ortiz wants the Astros to skate on this AND he vilified Fiers for "Snitching". Ben was very right to say that when we expose those who speak out we are treading on dangerous waters. That went right over your head. Now, you can sit there and say Fiers had no integrity by saying nothing during the 2017 season, but you have no idea how difficult that would have been for him. He would have been a pariah and a turncoat in the baseball world. The way the baseball fraternity is, he really had no choice but to wait until his days in Houston were done (if survival is an instinct he possesses) That is all

I actually have no interest in a debate over the integrity of Mike Fiers, but to call him a "snitch" is utterly absurd. If you want to call his integrity into question and make that into the issue then you are really spacing out there. I don't see where Mike Fiers integrity comes into play unless the allegations he made were in question. They aren't, so please stop.

Well now this underscores the trouble with baseball. There is obviously a "wall of silence" among the ranks with matters such as this. The fact that Fiers spoke up while still an active player who will pitch against this team is fairly incredible for baseball standards.

He has more integrity than any other Astros player from that team if speaking up is your measure of integrity. He is the last guy anyone should be complaining about from that standpoint. So, yes...when you endorse what Ortiz says right there you are singling him out. And no. He isn't in the same group as all the other players who said nothing,

Well, what the heck was Fiers supposed to do? Blow the whistle in 2017 To have a problem with Fiers is ludicrous. What about the guys who never said a word? WHY HIM?? There were a lot of other guys on that roster. You are operating in a vacuum and you just don't make any sense on this one. Sorry man.

Ortiz comes from a place of ignorance here. Get behind it if you feel like you must.

Who needs to mindread here? He dressed down Fiers for being a "snitch" so that means he should not have told anyone. Why is he reserving all of his anger for him? What about the players who said nothing while it went on? That would be the whole damn team. You are giving Ortiz too much credit. If you want to defend his logic then go ahead and jump the shark

The part of what Ortiz is saying shouldn't be something that overshadows the real issue. That is the problem I have with him. He is angrier about that than he is about what the Astros did. While he might be right questioning the timing of Fiers breaking this, how in the heck is that more important to him than what Houston did to the league? How in the hell is the truth wrong? What's the alternative? Don't "snitch" and just allow it to continue? That is a load of garbage and you don't believe it for a second. I don't give a damn about Mike Fiers. You can question Fiers' integrity all day and long but it doesn't alter the state of evidence here and it really isn't anything significant. What is more bothersome is this "cone of silence" some players want maintain on such matters. Ortiz leads the charge and that is very very disappointing to me because he was one of my favorite people in baseball for many years. Screw him

How about David Ortiz turning the tables and ripping Fiers for being a "snitch" Nice. It was "snitches" who gave up the guy who shot him. I am so sick and tired of this mafioso/ghetto mentality of "snitching" being the worst thing in the world. What the heck. We are just supposed to sweep lies under the rug? For Ortiz (a guy who is someone I have liked and respected for years) to come out with this malarkey is quite disheartening. He is making a bigger deal about Fiers he is what the Astros did. That is straight up dumb and you wonder what motivated him to say what he said.

Do Wah Diddy —Manfred Mann (What are we doing?)

This goes far beyond your typical rule bending/breaking. These players have received zero consequences from the league. I would like to know why you are against people laying into these players.

Well I just tried to break it down, but rest assured these folks will keep up the analogies and generalizations all the while ignoring the pertinent facts. The most disheartening thing to me are that people are going with the notion that this is baseball being baseball. The attitude dictates, "there's cheating in baseball and that is just the way it is. How is this any different? Why are you making a big deal?" As if you are a dork for questioning integrity anymore. I don't get it. Somehow, to some, I am getting on my high horse with this. I would like to know you, I or anyone is being overly judgmental about this? I get there are different levels of dishonesty, and in my almost 50 years of watching baseball and attending games, nothing comes close to this with regard to dishonesty. Not even steroids. And to make a comparison to pitch framing? Wow

And indeed. he should be.

If you are going to have that opinion and the thrust of your argument then you aren't allowed to be uniformed: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/01/astros-cheating-buzzers-allegations-player-reaction-altuve Players are angry about this and in some cases far angrier than most of what I have seen here. What bothers me are those who are telling folks to "stop complaining about it" That is the only reason I have weighed in on this topic. I got tired of fans who insist the players should walk and it should be swept under the rug.

y I agree with you, but what about how much we see from people who are now basically complaining about people for taking these players to task? This idea that it's cheating and cheating goes on in baseball all the time, etc...so it's business as usual in baseball. What? This is different. We have not seen a scandal like this in the modern era of baseball. There was talk about the Dodgers and Giants in the early 50s having some elaborate system, but not anything on the order of this has happened during any of our lifetimes (been following baseball since 1972). As it is they won the World Series, are getting paid millions and millions in guaranteed money, aren't giving a dime of that back, aren't being punished and basically have immunity on this matter.... All that and somehow when you read baseball message boards there is no shortage of people who want to rip those for ripping these Astros. What is there to defend here? Their right to set up an elaborate and very dishonest cheating scam the likes we haven't seen? Believe me. I loved it when the Astros wiped out the Yankees and Dodgers. Those are two teams I despise. If they are not going to face any consequences and keep their job, their check, and not deal with a suspension then nothing should prevent them from being excoriated and sullied by the fanbase. It's really disappointing to see people go on about how "there's cheating in baseball so let's move forward" and act as though one gets on a high horse by ripping these guys. Imagine if we advanced in the playoffs, played them and lost. I am certain some people would be singing a different tune.

I am going to try to explain it to you, but this will be my only attempt so please read this The difference between using technology and pitch framing is that one is an art that comes from a player's ability to make pitches better. The other teams and the umpires have knowledge of what pitch framing is and how it happens. Umpires can become aware of who is a great "pitch framer" and adjust accordingly. Stats are used to show who the best and worst pitch framers are. It is out there for public consumption. The key here is there very up front knowledge of this practice and the other team and umpires are aware of it. It happens on the field and players doing the framing are getting no help from anyone. With this scam the Astros ran the entire team was complicit in this by keeping it a secret. This was a system that employed cameras which relayed real time video to someone who then relayed messages to a player via a wired a device taped inside his uniform. The player was given real time information (something that could never be accomplished through hand signals) about what pitch was coming. As Curt Schilling explained the other day, this system would have killed him because if everyone knew his two seamer was coming they wouldn't have swung. Now they are geared up for tow pitches. To get this in place there were layers of duplicity to this and the other team's pitcher had no way of defending himself against it because they did this without the other team's knowledge. Had the Astros informed the other teams of this there isn't an organization that wouldn't have blown the whistle on them. This was a highly elaborate scam which operated on many levels and if it were ever discovered during a game players would have been ejected, probably the game protested, and lord knows what else. The fact that you wonder why it's viewed so differently from pitch framing only illustrates the lack of depth and understanding this argument you presented has. It assumes ignorance. It attempts to use generalizations to equate two different things. It shows the details I and others have presented go over your head for some strange reason. Either you understand it or you don't. That is on you, my friend. I cannot break it down in more elementary terms for you.

I did not even read the rest. THIS is what the HECK this organization has to do. I am so sick and tired of the free agent pitcher charade year after year. It is beyond stupid to sign guys like Cole or Strasburg. All this squealing and whining about it made my stomach acids flow. How stupid would it be to pony up all that money for a guy like Cole and then turns out to be a dud? A vast majority of the time you don't come close to getting the value for your dollar. Can we raise some damn pitching just once? We have to be among the worst teams in the last twenty seasons with regard to drafting and developing pitchers. We didn't draft Liriano, we went rule 5 for Johan. All we have is Garza and Berrios (throw in Gibson if you want, but big whoop). In twenty years!!!! Enough of this free agent ace garbage. Please let's learn how to draft and develop pitchers so we can have stable of cost controlled young arms.

Thanks for the enthusiasm and for hearing me and some of the other fans out on the title. I happen to think our pitching is not that bad. The bullpen seems to have some pros and our starting staff is much better than what we have had over the last 10 seasons

I sometimes don't see the point in what people refer to as "optimism" when it comes to talking about our favorite sports team because honesty and reality ultimately wins out. How can we really feel this way in our heart of hearts if we are going to be completely honest about it? I suppose it is nice to have an optimsitc view and hope for things that are very unlikely and I suppose it is also nice to line up all the positves in something and cast aside the negatives. That being said, I think once again the front office has done a great job giving this team a chance to win. It wouldn't be their fault if we don't get very far. I think we can say that we are the favorite in the Central without being arrogant or overly optimistic. Beyond that anything more is a bit much. For me it all boils down to..."what is this group going to do when/if they get there?" A playoff berth is honestly nothing more than a shot at what should be the goal. With this franchise it seems to me the goal is reached once the division is won. I remember a thread late last summer that basically said..."Bring on the Yankees" Well....we got 'em and look at what happened again. We can talk the talk in February about how we have a "nightmare" of a pitching staff for the rest of the league. What matters to me is where the hell is this team's soul, brains and guts in October. I am so sick and tired of all the overly bold optimism. After what transpired a few months ago it isn't warranted. It is one thing to feel some optimism, but it quite another when optimism overrules honesty. We had a decent pitching staff last year (contrary to popular belief). It was not the pitching that disappointed me so much against the Yankees even though they weren't competitive. It was the offense. We were so bombastic and yet when everything on the line the offense went radio silent. I really don't care who we have on the mound if we are going to fall flat like that again. Couldn't we score more than seven runs in three games against a pretty average major league pitching staff? What about that? If we are going to honest about things we had a slightly better than average staff last year. It was every bit as good as the Yankees staff. A lot of people here were ready to compare our offense to the Yankees offense last year (and that was fair). So why the deep gap between us in the post season? It isn't because they are they THAT much better and if we lose to them in three straight again it won't be because we didn't sign Ryu or some other "stud" pitcher. It runs way deeper than that. It is about a mindset. It is the mindset that dictates no matter what we are still good. Eh. I have had enough of that. I had enough of it as soon as Michael Cuddyer pronounced 2010 a "successful season because we won the Central" This mindset still exists in the person of Rocco Baldelli I like Nash and have given him props for his articles, but after years and years of watching this team, I find it hard to be bombastic about what we have. I would rather be conservative and temper my enthusiasm. I give this team a chance to go all the way. It's just the mindset of Baldelli really gives me doubts. It is the same junk we heard in the past. Proclaiming the season "successful" after being washed out in the first round. Had it been the very first time we got there in 25 years then I can accept that. I cannot accept it as a fan who has seen virtually every single pitch and at bat in the 2003, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2010 and 2019 playoffs. Six times in a row we are out in the first round and we are now talking about 15 playoff losses in a row. If we are going to run articles that proclaim our pitching to be a "nightmare" for the rest of the league we should at least give space for a post like this when you consider the history. I am not quite over the latest October nightmare so please forgive my tone. Sorry Nash. I appreciate the enthusiasm, but it is hard for me to get behind that notion. Not now (although I would love to be proven wrong)

We can't seem to raise a starting pitcher if our lives depended on it. Before Berrios the best we had was Garza and he was traded away. If we cannot draft and raise competent starting pitchers to fill our rotation we are destined to the same fate.

Precisely, and I was pretty angry about that at the time. It make no sense at all to give up on a guy who hit 20 home runs, drove in 75 runs and hit 272 and was a leader. To discard him the way the Twins did was shameful and this isn't hindsight

Of course I have improved my lie...both in the rough and elsewhere The thing is, there is a certain amount of accountability that goes with baseball. They sign contracts, make tons of money, must not cheat, etc.... If asking cheaters to face consequences makes me a choir boy than so be it. At the same time, I can be vicious if someone crosses me. If provoked I might just eat someone's family tree and fart saw back into their face before I embark on a full on assault. Gary Carter was a choir boy and he'd eat your heart right our of your chest if it meant wining a ballgame. Marwin, I think, is a whimp. I saw him yukking it up with the Yankees as they kicked our teeth in. How freakin wimpy is that? And when he called time as Severino went into his windup he was wayyy too emphatic in his apology. He was like "My bad my bad!!!" What the heck. After that, I already had an unfavorable view of him. Add to it the fact that he's a part of this Houston thing and I say discard him unceremonious. We can do without him and I would eat that money too. Call me crazy. I might just be!

If I don't want Gonzalez (or any other Astros on the team) this is "holier than thou"? Do you think this guy is coming from a place that is "holier than thou"?? https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/video-indians-mike-clevinger-has-perfect-response-to-how-astros-scandal-is-more-significant-than-fans-think/ar-BBZ4gza PLENTY of players don't appreciate this scandal and why have any taint from it when we don't have to have it? Sorry, but I am in a career where I am scrutinized and if I do something questionable like Gonzalez and his teammates did (over and over again--not just once) I would be fired. Playing professional baseball is a privilege. Three managers and a GM have caught consequences for this. Are you saying the players shouldn't take any heat for it? Shouldn't the players also be held accountable for this? To heck with him. Discard him like a broken part in a machine. Find someone else in the snap of a finger.