ewen21

I think what we should infer from his post is that he doesn't believe we should be looking for a third baseman because we already have one.

Let's say we signed Ryu and appeased a very vocal segment of the fanbase. Is this guy going help get us over when we've played like we are lobotomized in the playoffs in each of last four appearances? Doesn't that need to end? We had more than enough offense and yet again we went into a coma. Is this about getting a shiny new present or is about reality? Ryu pitched one game in the postseason and he went 5 and gave up two runs. Is this guy a needle moving talent? Maybe he has electric stuff, but he has all kinds of durability problems. I already highlighted my concerns about him and I thought we were right to pass on him. No one should be surprised if he doesn't make it through season given his track record, age and physical stature. So when I see all sorts of anger about not signing him I don't get it, Big picture, last season was disastrous to me. It felt great all summer and then we proved that we are still stuck with the inferiority complex, indifference, false sense of accomplishment or whatever it is. We had as good a chance at breaking this embarrassing streak. All we had to do was win a game and we could not. It was like no one wanted to acknowledge the gorilla in the room going into it and some people were even thinking it was the right time to play the Yankees. When I questioned it, the mindset was that this team had nothing to do with all the other teams and that is a mistake because now they are no different. I don't want to hear about this significant gap. Not last year. The Yankees pitching was not any better than ours and they were missing Domingo German (their best performer last year). We had the "Bomba Squad" against their middle of the pack staff and we didn't show up. Terrible at bats, dismissive mindset about the history and then they were quick to write it off as "short series" and "anything could happen" and "successful season" As a fan, I am more ticked off about the result at the end of last year than I am this off season. I did not see us as realistic suiters for Cole. Wheeler and Bumgarner had their preferences and Ryu is just too risky. To quote Rocco, "I am not frustrated at all" Let us just go with Graterol and see what he can do. It is time for Byron Buxton to stop being half a player. He needs to be more durable and he has to be more consistent with the bat. Let's not start comparing Kepler to Yelitch and believing that he has the same potential. Kepler really disappointed at the end of the season. The FO constructed a very good team last winter with some smart mid-level under the radar moves. FOr whatever reason, there exists a toxic mindset in this organization where players are confused about what success is. Last year was no success

Fine, then they were right not to invest the dollars in him. I would not go over two yeas with Ryu I will concede my earlier point about the large Korean community having an influence on him. Scrap that if you want.

I couldn't disagree with you more. I have been through this enough times: He's pitched more than 90 innings just twice in the last five seasonsHe is overweight AND has a long history of time on the DLHe will be 33 and it is very likely he could have a sharp declineI don't know how a guy like this warrants a 4 year deal. We will see how this plays out, but I think it is an insane signing by Toronto. Very VERY risky given his injury history, lack of durability and age.

I don't see it to be like that at all. First of all, none of the young players we have are comparable to Mauer, Morneau and Santana. Not even close. Also, the level of ":dumpster diving" was far more egregious during the Ryan years. Signing Boone, Cirillo, Nevin when they were DONE. Signing horrendous free agent starting pitchers. At no point did he sign guys as talented as Odorizzi or Pineda. They are not great, but they aren't the cow flop that Ryan troweled out Cron, Gonzalez, Schoop, Cruz contributed 104 home runs and cost us about 39 million dollars. When did anything resembling that happen during the 2000s? In the 2000s the best players were the young guys and they had no help. Last year we a very deep team. And this myth about the pitching being not good as the reason why we couldn't get out of the first round is trash. We ranked 9th in ERA last year and the Yankees were 14th. It is not the fault of the GMs we got nowhere in the playoffs. The Yankees were missing perhaps their best pitcher in Domingo German and we could manage only 7 runs in 3 games. That isn't going to get fixed overpaying a couple of free agents. There is a culture problem and I think it starts with Baldelli. He is the same as a guy like Michael Cuddyer who would sing "Doo Dah Doo DAH" about how the Twins had successful seasons after getting embarrassed in the playoffs. How is it that gets ignored and we have scores of folks going bonkers about us not signing guys we had virtually no chance of landing (and are grossly overpriced) Makes no sense to me. None

That would be what Terry Ryan did. Ramon Ortiz, Sydney Ponson, Jason Marquis..... Granted, Bailey and Hill are not great, but they are a step above what used the be the GARBAGE Ryan would sign. Last winter these GMs did a brilliant job assembling a team that went on to win 101 games without breaking the bank. The players were the ones that screwed it up in the end. I think the anger directed at the GMs is a little misplaced. I think guys like Buxton and Kepler should be scrutinized as well for being AWOL the last two months. Lots of praise gets showered on both and yet they were nowhere to be found September and October

Lot's of people are calling this offsesason a failure without any trouble. I find it somewhat troubling that as many people havent labeled last season a failure after that 3-and-out. Seems rather inconsistent from the fans. I am not saying you or anyone in particular are a person who called last season a "success" and this offseason a "failure" .. I have a problem with those who are doing that.

I respect what you are saying, but I’m highly skeptical about what he can bring anymore and I’ve always liked the guy. Heck I was half hoping he’d put Perkins in his place back in his Oakland days when Perk popped off on him. Then again, I’ve watched baseball since 1972. We just don’t see many players do very well into their mid-30s. I’m not saying he’s going to suck, but it’s really hard to swallow this “price point” of his on principle. Two good years maybe for 9 figures? I think I’ll pass

"Strong history of durability" amounts to five seasons of getting the qualifying plate appearances and one of the last three to be exact. He has done that once since he turned 30. He's not the same guy at 34 that he was 27 to 30. I am about facts as well, Chief. Last year there were 17 position players who reached 400 PAs at the age 34 and over. Just of them had a WAR over 2.0. Nelson Cruz led the way and he is a rare exception. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=400&type=8&season=2019&month=0&season1=2019&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=34,58&filter=&players=&startdate=&enddate= Joey Votto has power and plate discipline and his numbers dove at age 34: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vottojo01.shtml Robinson Cano had durability that makes Donaldson's durability barely noteworthy. He fell off and so did his durability right around 34/35 years old: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/canoro01.shtml Same thing with Miguel Cabrera: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cabremi01.shtml Same thing with Albert Pujols: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/pujolal01.shtml I am not "vastly overstating" concerns about age. What I am saying I would bet against him having even 75% of the durability he was able to boast during his prime years. This is based of tons and tons of historical data over decades. .

What do you mean explain? Durability is a finite thing when it comes to athletes. He is a 34 year old third baseman who has had made the qualifying number of plate appearances once in the last four seasons. He had four seasons in a row with the qualifying number of plate appearances before last year. Those were ages 27 to 30 . Do you expect this to just start happening again because it's happened before? Tell you what....I wouldn't wager on that happening more than once again. Batteries last only so long, candles last only so long, cars and machinery last only so long ….and so do baseball players. Most don't even make it to 34. Just about anything that does work depreciates and wears out. This isn't a AA government bond we are talking about, Chief. He is a 34 year old baseball player. This isn't rocket science.

I am not making the freakin offers. I am just telling you something and I am convinced you still do not understand it. I think the FO gets what I am saying and you don't

I am on record in this thread with my theory as to how money doesn't matter enough of anymore once you get into 9 figures. These are baseball players. They aren't running a major operation, with hundreds and hundreds of employees and all sorts of responsibilities. They just have to play baseball and they don't even need to do it well because the money is guaranteed. Donaldson is set to earn 9 figures and he has already earned 80 million. What the heck does 10 million more even mean to him? Honestly. That kind of money doesn't have the sway that it would for a guy looking for a one year deal or a two year deal. So please....don't talk to me about Lance Lynn, Odorizzi or whomever. That is on a totally different level and is nothing to do with what I am saying and the effect that a guy like Donaldson is experiencing right now. This idea that says...."Man, If we only give him 10 million more than everyone else we would have him!" is futile and it isn't even necessarily true. He is going to play where he wants. Isn't that what being a free agent is all about? The dude lives in Mobile, Alabama and is from Jacksonville, Fl. He's spent his time far away from home in Oakland and Toronto. YOu don't think MAYBE he'd like to finish up closer to home? You don't think MAYBE he's just using the Twins and has no desire to play anywhere but Atlanta or some team with REAL playoff pedigree? Come on now.....please

Dude, it's like you're dancing with no music playing. Neither were poised to earn 9 figures like Donaldson is right now so they are completely irrelevant to my point And Mike, I keep repeating it because of posts like this. I SPECIFICALLY talked about guys looking for the big multi-year deal approaching 9 figures, the silly money.....and he brings up Lynn and Cruz. Really???

I didn't say ALL OF THEM will. I am saying for the upper-echelon guys it's becoming more about where they want to play than it is the money. They already have their money. When you talk about guys who have already earned, 50, 60, 80, dollars and more looking for a multiyear deal they care more about where they end up than a guy like Lance Lynn on a one year deal. You seem to understand what I am saying, but I am stunned by the level of incredulity demonstrated here. Simply put, the players make too much damn money and this is the side-effect. If you are a supporter of the player's union and their right to be free agents then I don't want to hear any complaining about how the FO can't sign guys. I am not saying you are, but there are a number of people playing both sides of that fence and they don't even know it.

I've already told you why. When we get into high price tag, big earner, multi-year deals players hit a saturation point. What the HECK is the difference between 90 million and 110 million? Certain players are starting to earn so much money that 10 and 20 million dollars can't even sway them. Bumgarner admitted he left money on the table and it's likely his agent and the union wasn't all too happy about it, but he spoke the truth. This isn't about GUYS DON'T WANT TO PLAY IN MINNESOTA. It is more about these high price tag free agents tend to have other preferences and they make so much damn money now that 10 or 20 extra million doesn't even move the needle. Those other dudes you mentioned didn't have the same kind of leverage. Pretty elementary stuff

That’s the problem. Any team can do that in baseball and baseball players get absurd amounts of guaranteed money. There comes a point where money doesn’t matter as much to the players and other factors play into it. If we were talking about the difference between 60,000 and 80,000 that’s significant. When it gets into the silly numbers (where baseball is now) other factors start to play into it more and more.

I’m not saying NO ONE WANTS TO COME TO MINNESOTA. I’ve looked at each FA signing this winter and each FA seemed to have a preference. Minnesota wasn’t one of them. And that’s no “excuse” It’s just reality. The way things are set up we are one of the many teams at a distinct disadvantage and it goes further than just money—although money is big factor

I defer to your formidable knowledge of Korean, but I must say I’m stunned that you reject the notion that Toronto’s fairly large Korean community had little to do with his decision. If he were a fluent speaker of English I’d not even bring it up. He isn’t. This is born out of the same notion that urban enclaves form to give immigrant groups an easier transition. All kinds of ethic groups have done this from time immemorial. Another 10 or 15 million likely wasn’t going to land him. And had we done it that would have proven to be a mistake.

Korea is in Asia, Chief. I know that Toronto has a very large Asian population, but more importantly, it also has close to 100,000 South Koreans. He doesn’t speak English. He speaks Korean. You can doubt the importance of this fact all you want. Why would he not want to be in a place where there is a community of people who can feel at home with and socialize with? Another place that wouldn’t have surprised me is with the Mets. There is perhaps an even larger Korean community in Queens. You can get on your high horse and insist this isn’t a factor. I tend to be more open to things like this whereas you are a “money talks” kind of guy. I believe in that to an extent, but it’s not EVERYTHING. You’ll learn eventually.

Do you think we should have went higher to get Ryu?

Let's say we signed Donaldson to the 4/110 deal he wanted and we outbid Toronto and signed Ryu to 4/100. Would that have satisfied you?

It's going to be cold tomorrow. THat's speculation, too. HOnestly, man. You seem utterly incredulous too what the guy just said. I tend to believe that if you have 6 or 7 million dollars tucked away and aren't a complete stooge you can write your own ticket. I am willing to bet Donaldson isn't the greedy pig you assume that he is. I am willing to bet his family and his personal desires go beyond just money at this point. The guy has money already. He has a killer pension. What don't you get?

"the narrative" was not created by me and I am not beholden to it. At no point did I weigh in on Ryu wanting to stay on the west coast, but I can totally see it. It is not "spin job" to say it makes sense Ryu ended up in Toronto. Not to me, at least. There are a lot of Asians in Toronto. I know this. I have lived in upstate NY for almost my whole life and have met my share of Ontarians. Ryu going to Toronto makes sense to me. I don't feel the need to explain it to you any further. As far as overpaying for a free agent, when I am inspired by a particular player that I think fits and makes sense I will call for the Twins to overpay. You have called for them to overpay for ALL OF the five guys discussed this winter. That is your strategy and it makes no sense to me. Battle on, though....I like the emotion. Would have liked to see you join me after the 3-and-out but I guess that didn't upset you quite as much as not signing free agents this winter. That is just odd to me, but I respect the fact that you complain--even if I don't think it makes any sense at all for each of the five guys we did not sign Not one bit of sense.

Guys making more money than God isn’t a excuse. You just don’t get the implications of players making crazy money and what it’s done to the game. If a guy like Donaldson from some jerkwater town in Florida already has earned tens of millions of dollars and is assured an amazing pension anyway, what is the difference between getting 90 million and 120 million at the end of his career? He’s already earned over 80 million. Cut out the taxes and pay his agent and he still has earned at least 30 or 40. What if he just wants to play near home? He’s married and he’s got enough money for a couple of generations of Donaldsons. Ever think of the possibility that baseball players are so rich these days that 10, 20, 30 million doesn’t make enough of a difference? He wants to use other teams against the Braves to jack up his price. Do you not get this or do you just want to throw tantrums all the way until the season starts? ALL you have done over the last month is complain daily about how the Twins aren’t paying every single free more money than everybody else in the market. In every single case you have advocated for the Twins to outbid the entire market for each of the last five big free agents. Well guess what? It’s not happening. And furthermore, Donaldson isn’t going to put us over the top. Donaldson and Ryu together wouldn’t have. Scream all you want now. I’m done talking about Josh Donaldson

That is exactly what he is doing because that is how the system is designed