Why Can't the Twins Spend Like the Padres?

58 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I'm complicated so I see complication in your question. "Real Chance" requires your definition of real chance.

Did the Guardians have a real chance last year? Your answer will determine if we are speaking the same language.  ?

 

As for Jason Tyner... I never want to go back to those days again. We went through a decade of not signing free agents and not developing. It was a decade of treading water with average to below average talent getting every day playing time. I never want to go back to those days again.

I want development front and center. I think there are times to push today but you always have to have an eye on tomorrow. I know Dombroski has won some titles but he left behind rubble in the process. I'm not sure that I want that. Development is the only way to stay bullet proof. The Dodgers are the most bulletproof team I can think of... It isn't the money... Well Yeah it helps but the Dodgers farm is what deflects the bullets. 

BTW... The Padres with all that money spent will still need lightning in a bottle. All 30 teams need that Lightning. 

Did the Guardians have a "real chance" last year? I wouldn't say going into it that they did, but I feel like with what we saw at the end of last year if play like they did down the stretch and into the playoffs and their FO doesn't add to that team, it would be a travesty.

In fact, their fans are probably clamoring for some help to get that roster over the top. 

PS I am in no way saying that spending like San Diego does work or that it is what I want the Twins to do. I just want them to be able to recognize that when they is a shot or they have generational talent around like M&M, Santana, etc. that they do whatever is necessary to help those teams get over the hump, no matter the cost. 

Question is, are the Twins doing a good job of developing players?  If you have good development, then you fill in the gaps with trades/FA.  I'm going out on a limb and say if this season is like the last 2, we go full rebuild.  Also can't have more of your productive roster on the IL than on the field.  We have a few top prospects who are probably at a cross roads. 

Just now, Battle ur tail off said:

Did the Guardians have a "real chance" last year? I wouldn't say going into it that they did, but I feel like with what we saw at the end of last year if play like they did down the stretch and into the playoffs and their FO doesn't add to that team, it would be a travesty.

In fact, their fans are probably clamoring for some help to get that roster over the top. 

 

PS I am in no way saying that spending like San Diego does work or that it is what I want the Twins to do. I just want them to be able to recognize that when they is a shot or they have generational talent around like M&M, Santana, etc. that they do whatever is necessary to help those teams get over the hump, no matter the cost. 

They spent some money signing Bell, which worries me greatly regarding the Twins chance to compete.  If they go into the season without making some important moves, we could be looking at the basement like 2021.  Unless, that is, all the prospects take a big step forward, and this team can stay healthy(not confident)

Can’t be true.  Only large market teams can spend.otherwise the franchise will self destruct.

Why do we act like the TV deal is something outside of the Twins’ control?  Generate more interest in the team.  Negotiate better.  It’s not an excuse, it’s another level of indictment.

And who cares what the rest of the division is doing?  

San Diego lost the Chargers.  The Padres are the only major sports franchise in town.  They get all the corporate dollars and they are selling out all of their tickets.  I bet their tickets cost more then the Twins tickets do.  If Minneapolis could Jettison the Vikings, Wild and Timberwolves, and sell out more expensive tickets and rework the TV and Radio contracts we could spend at the Padres level.

3 hours ago, Shaitan said:

How has it worked out for SD so far?

The made the playoffs this year and the fans seem to be pretty happy with the competitive team that the owners put on the field every night... so imma say that it worked out well.  

1 hour ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Do you think that the Twins low payroll may be the only reason the Twins are still in Minnesota, because the Twins organization, as it exists, is not capable of making much more gross income? If the owners spend much more money on expensive players, but have few fans attending games and have a low paying tv deal, resulting in little revenue and no profit, then the Twins organization will lose money. And if the business is losing money, then the business owners may want/need to sell the business to the highest bidder and the highest bidder may live in North Carolina and want to move the Twins to Charlotte?  So Twins fans who live in Minnesota, be grateful for low spending owners. This is the only reason the Twins are still a Minnesota team. "If your out go exceeds your income, then your upkeep will be your downfall." Sincerely, tarheeltwinsfan, B.A. in Economics, University of North Carolina.

I wouldn't want our team to imitate SD. Spending money isn't the solution to all our problem. It's how we evaluate players, which effects our drafting, trading, promoting & signing FAs. It's ability to reconize our problems & resolve them. Also the ability to see our needs & the ability to evaluate players who fit those needs. Ability to pull of good trades to fill those needs. The ability to develop & coach those players. To be more efficient.

I rather model teams like CLE & TB who are effecient, they are never far from competing. Once you are efficient then you can spend a little more if need be. To spend a little more on a player you'd like to keep, a FA that fits your needs, bring in a needed coach. You may say that's CLE & TB are low level but big shot LAD are doing the same thing but they are able to spend more.

That's where I want to be, but maybe do it a little better.

Yes TV deal is the biggest blunder of the organization. 
 

No one can just tune in to the game for an inning or 2 or 3 multiple days a week.  Or even catch part of a game at a local establishment. which turns into excitement generated for the team.  That in turn brings fans to games.  If the twins play an exciting Tuesday night game literally no one but the serious Twins fans even know about it. 
 

Bally sports ( the Twins originally signed the deal with Fox sports who was forced to sell) is the worst TV group to for baseball.  Their unwillingness to work with the internet TV providers for there gambling purposes has robbed millions of potential baseball fans for watching baseball through the country.  The last thing baseball needs is not giving access to watch game to you fans.  Who are the majority or internet tv subscribers.  
 

the twins and the many other baseballs teams should refuse to negotiate with Bally sports at the end of this deal because of this.   Baseball needs as much access for the young generation as humanly possible if they want to survive in 20 years!  

3 hours ago, Trov said:

I still say team building comes down to player development.

Yep. And, probably more important, accurate scouting.

1 hour ago, adorduan said:

so what? if they can't win games who gives a crap if they are still on the roster...

How many payoff teams were starting players in August that are similar to Cave, Beckam, Contreas or Celestino consistently? Would the Phillies have made it to the series with Cave in left, Contreas in right and Celestino in center? IDC what team it is if you're starting you 50th-60th best prospect/player you're not going too far in the playoffs.

To make the playoffs in 2022 the Twins would have needed 10 more wins. WAR 1 win = $8 mil. So, $80 mil to be the last playoff team. How does that make sense? Now IF this group (healthy) can get into the playoffs and by chance win a single series at $130 mil. That says 10 more wins ($80 Mil in payroll) will likely get you to at least the ALCS. 

Ownership isn't committed to winning. 

And you wouldn't take that trade off for a world series victory?!

3 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

The Nationals are the current example of the rubble. The majority of their fans seem to be upset with the trade of Soto. 

 

44 minutes ago, High heat said:

Yes TV deal is the biggest blunder of the organization. 
 

No one can just tune in to the game for an inning or 2 or 3 multiple days a week.  Or even catch part of a game at a local establishment. which turns into excitement generated for the team.  That in turn brings fans to games.  If the twins play an exciting Tuesday night game literally no one but the serious Twins fans even know about it. 
 

Bally sports ( the Twins originally signed the deal with Fox sports who was forced to sell) is the worst TV group to for baseball.  Their unwillingness to work with the internet TV providers for there gambling purposes has robbed millions of potential baseball fans for watching baseball through the country.  The last thing baseball needs is not giving access to watch game to you fans.  Who are the majority or internet tv subscribers.  
 

the twins and the many other baseballs teams should refuse to negotiate with Bally sports at the end of this deal because of this.   Baseball needs as much access for the young generation as humanly possible if they want to survive in 20 years!  

I agree. Bally Sports has severely hurt the entire MN sports fanbase. And I mean across ALL sports. I haven't been able to watch a single MN sports team, outside the Vikings, for over 2 years. Not being able to watch the Twins hurts the future fanbase. If kids don't see the sport, they don't wanna go to the games and don't get to purchase the apparel of the team. Lost revenue right there. 

As a parent, my son has always asked, "Why don't we get to watch the Twins on TV?" As a coach of the sport, I see my players repping more SD, LA, NYY, PHI, MIA, BOS, and CHI Sox hats than I see MN Twins hats. Why is that? Those teams are on TV. Our team is not on TV. 

I honestly think a good thread on here would be... who of us die hard fans pay to watch our Twins on TV.  I'm out of market..so I pay up for the mlb network. I also purchase merchandise and attend spring traing. Probably an unpopular opinion here...but feels like many on here are unwilling to spend to watch our team either on tv or in person..but like to bemoan about our lower payroll.  Either support the team or dont..I'm ok either way.  But if folks are unwilling to spend for tickets or TV access then please don't complain about payroll

45 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

2002

It ended a 9 year playoff drought for the Twins 

We lost to the Angels who had ended a 14 year playoff drought and the Angels went on to win the World Series. 

Adam Kennedy who hit 7 home runs in 474 AB's during the regular season hit 3 Home runs during the ALCS. @glunn

In 2002 the Angels were 15th in payroll at 62M... The Twins were 27th in payroll at 40M,

What does this have to do with the 2023 Padres payroll? ?

 

IMO their spending puts them a lot closer to winning a WS than the Twins. That's the goal, right? Winning a World Series?

2 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I wouldn't want our team to imitate SD. Spending money isn't the solution to all our problem. It's how we evaluate players, which effects our drafting, trading, promoting & signing FAs. It's ability to reconize our problems & resolve them. Also the ability to see our needs & the ability to evaluate players who fit those needs. Ability to pull of good trades to fill those needs. The ability to develop & coach those players. To be more efficient.

I rather model teams like CLE & TB who are effecient, they are never far from competing. Once you are efficient then you can spend a little more if need be. To spend a little more on a player you'd like to keep, a FA that fits your needs, bring in a needed coach. You may say that's CLE & TB are low level but big shot LAD are doing the same thing but they are able to spend more.

That's where I want to be, but maybe do it a little better.

Well said Doc.

Looking quickly through some recent attendance numbers it seems like the Padres and Twins were pretty close in 2017-2019. The last three years there has been a growing gap. In 2022, the Padres pulled in more than a million more fans than the Twins. The Twins were in 1st place most of the season and the Padres had some issues. It appears that the Padres fans are more excited by the brand of baseball played by their team than the Twins fans are for their team.  Butts in seats still means something. So a better media deal and a million plus extra fans creates a gap between these two teams in their finances. 

I would suggest that station to station baseball, poor fundamental play, and management style turned off some Twins fans. In any event, the front office needs to figure a way to get more people into Target Field in 2023. My two cents is to field a more exciting team.

5 hours ago, adorduan said:

I'll take the rubble for a couple of championships.  we get rubble and we don't even win anything.

Man... I'd take 30 years of constant rubble for another World Series championship. I watch these other fan bases and the ride to a championship and I'm just so dang jealous. 

9 hours ago, Dave Overlund said:

To me it doesn't have to be either $140 or $235. There's a lot of room in between. If the Twins don't want to spend $200m every year I can accept that. But there should be peaks to go with the valleys because what they are doing now isn't working as far as winning or attendance is concerned. 

I know it is a 'chicken and the egg' situation but to me 'if you build it, they will come.' In other words, if the Twins spent up for a few seasons and won a few playoff games Target Field would be the hottest ticket in town all summer. If you look at the attendance by season there is a direct correlation with winning going back to the Metrodome days. 

The Twins averaged more fans per season every year from 2002-2009 at the Metrodome than they did last season at beautiful Target Field. 

If you want to run the team as 'small (or mid) market,' you are going to make small (or middling) revenue. Gotta spend some money to make money. 

Nyoman are wrong on the spend money to make money. It comes down to “Just win, baby. In the early part of this century the fans came out for a winning team that they were not spending money on.