Velocity Is (Still) a Problem for the Minnesota Twins

A while back I was talking with a former big league pitcher.  When someone else asked about why he was successful without throwing all that hard his response was basically that how hard you threw didn't mean squat.  Rather, you needed to be a pitcher.

Considering he was an old leftie who I believe won more big league games than any lefty ever, enough said about the subject in mine....err, his opinion.

4 minutes ago, roger said:

A while back I was talking with a former big league pitcher.  When someone else asked about why he was successful without throwing all that hard his response was basically that how hard you threw didn't mean squat.  Rather, you needed to be a pitcher.

Considering he was an old leftie who I believe won more big league games than any lefty ever, enough said about the subject in mine....err, his opinion.

Must be Warren Spahn - greatest left hander ever, Milwaukee Brave and my favorite, but never got ranked the best, just won 20 games in each of 13 seasons.  If it was you were a lucky guy.

There are many guys who have succeeded without throwing 95+.   On Baseball Savant I see the speeds of Tyler Rogers, Kyle Hendricks, and Zach Grienke with 4 seam speeds well below 90, yet they are very successful.   What I see at the top is an amazing change in velocity from fastball to curve - DeGrom 99.2 to 83.3,, Cole 97.7 -  83.4.    

To my amazement Griffin Jax had and average 4 seamer at 92.6 and curveball at 79.9 - which should be really good.   Is that what the team sees in him?  John Gant has 92 - 74.7.   Michael Pineda had a 90.6 4 seam and no curve ball, but an 81.2 slider.   Bailey Ober was 92.3 with a 75 mph curveball.    Joe Ryan is the slowest of all these pitchers - 91.2 and had 72.7 curveball for contrast.  Lots of stats, but the results say Pineda Ryan  and Ober were our top pitchers last year.

In order of priority isn't location, movement, velocity the old pitching refrain?

21 minutes ago, Dave The Dastardly said:

In order of priority isn't location, movement, velocity the old pitching refrain?

Yup.  The most memorable short performance by a reliever I can recall offhand was marveling at Tyler Duffey in his first appearance since he got a little heated in New York. The movement on these pitches is mind blowing for not having 'sticky stuff'.

On the flip side, there was Duran early in the year throwing straight gas:

Truth be told there are coaches adverse to velocity, since it generally entails walks with the strike outs.

That said velocity is the third of the three legged pitching stool, but if you don’t have it the first two legs aren’t as effective. If you can’t get a hitting thinking about keeping up with your fastball, your change up just isn’t as effective despite the difference in velocity.

But the big difference maker here is matching consistently low velocity "pitch to contact" pitchers with mediocre defense. Yes we have Buxton, some of the time. But short of that the teams overall defense has been uninspiring for quite awhile. If you don’t have high SO rates by your staff, someone better be turning that contact into outs! 

1 hour ago, mikelink45 said:

Must be Warren Spahn - greatest left hander ever, Milwaukee Brave and my favorite, but never got ranked the best, just won 20 games in each of 13 seasons.  If it was you were a lucky guy.

 

Yes, growing up on a Central Wisconsin farm in the 50's, was a huge fan.  Had to listen to games on radio and got to see one game a year, but remain a huge fan of Spahn, Henry, Eddie and the crew.

He spoke at my son's Legion banquet a few years before passing.  One of the most interesting people I have ever met.  I guess the best description would be a bit crusty, but what a life.  What most people don't know about is his service in WWII and the medal he won for what he did in combat.

Maybe Jim Hoey is still available.

10 minutes ago, roger said:

Yes, growing up on a Central Wisconsin farm in the 50's, was a huge fan.  Had to listen to games on radio and got to see one game a year, but remain a huge fan of Spahn, Henry, Eddie and the crew.

He spoke at my son's Legion banquet a few years before passing.  One of the most interesting people I have ever met.  I guess the best description would be a bit crusty, but what a life.  What most people don't know about is his service in WWII and the medal he won for what he did in combat.

I was a Milwaukee Brave fan and my family journeyed to see them for one series every year.  Loved all those great players. 

You are right - he and Yogi Berra at the Battle of the Bulge.  What a career and what a life.  Without the war he might have won 400, but Koufax and others got their days of fame while he just annually did great.  So consistent that he was overlooked. 

This was an interesting article. Thank you for writing this article, Tom. I believe you are on to something here. The Twins have traded away, given away, lost a lot of flame throwers over the past 5 years. The big question is "Why ?".  A flame throwing swing and miss gives the team and fans more energy than a swing and miss change-up, which fools the batter. I really think many of the the Twins pitchers lack energy on the mound. Gardy used to say, "It's a long season."  That is true, however I say, "It may be a long season, but you can only live one second  at a time. Do all you can to win now, whether it is a cold April day, a drizzly June night, a sweltering day game in Tampa, or the last games in September.. Go all out...every time...every bunt...every batter's ground out to the shortstop. Run to first base, damnit, run. Play with energy. Pump each other up.  Get excited and share the energy. Make every game a "playoff game" in actions and energy. 

Chargois is a good example of the struggles of a pitcher with velocity. Injuries and command issues can lead to doubt and it is tough to pitch without confidence. Managers need to pick their spots in how they show faith in a player, which is complicated.

When I was growing up playing the game our pitchers would get schooled in two primary things; throwing strikes, and changing speeds.  Just making up numbers here, a pitcher today that can throw a fastball at 92, a changeup or slider at 82 and a curve at 72, and throw them for strikes will keep a hitters timing off by mixing up the pitches, regardless of the count, as long as he can throw them for strikes.  But you do need a staff of pitchers who have different velo rates as well; when you change pitchers you also change velo rates and spin rates, which can also throw off the timing.  A good mix of pitches by each pitcher and a good mix of velo and spin rates in the staff as a whole is a good combination.  As much as I love the guys who throw 3 digits, IMO we don't need as many as we might think.  Go for control, velo variance and spin rates that compliment each other, and you have a good staff.  

15 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

Chargois is a good example of the struggles of a pitcher with velocity. Injuries and command issues can lead to doubt and it is tough to pitch without confidence. Managers need to pick their spots in how they show faith in a player, which is complicated.

So true. Which is why managers are not simply someone who reads where some stat sheet tells him where to play his SS?  There are different personalities involved. Some can handle certain stresses and some can’t, despite seemingly identical talents. It’s the managers job to discern these differences and put the player in his best position to succeed. 

It has seemed apparent to me for the last 3 years that the front office sees a market inefficiency in prioritizing deliveries, particularly deliveries with deception. They want pitchers like Cody Stashak, Kenta Maeda, etc. Joe Ryan's unremarkable velocity that's extremely difficult for hitters to pick up is, what I would assume, this front office's Holy Grail.

From there, after acquisition they can work on unlocking a couple extra MPH with Wes Johnson on his lower half biomechanical tutoring. It adds roster flexibility by cheaper to do it this way. Most other teams are understandably obsessed with velocity, so they're more willing to part with someone like Maeda or Ryan. It's a clever angle which worked well in 2019 and 2020.

Intuitively, focusing less on velocity would theoretically lessen injury risks, but 2021 certainly does NOT back that idea up. 

55 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Of COURSE velo is important. It's obviously not the only thing that matters, but a fastball on the corner at 98 is just better than the same fastball at 91. To argue otherwise is ridiculous. 

Missing velocity has been pretty evident in where the team is with closers. It seems we haven't had a really strong swing-and-miss closer for a long time.

Movement to me is the key, along with command.  A 98 MPH fastball with no movement will eventually get hammered.  A 93 MPH fastball with a lot of movement is a big issue to batters.  With Mario Rivera most players knew what was coming, with the movement they still could not hit it. 

20 minutes ago, Harrison Greeley III said:

It has seemed apparent to me for the last 3 years that the front office sees a market inefficiency in prioritizing deliveries, particularly deliveries with deception. They want pitchers like Cody Stashak, Kenta Maeda, etc. Joe Ryan's unremarkable velocity that's extremely difficult for hitters to pick up is, what I would assume, this front office's Holy Grail.

Yeah, I think this is also why they love tall guys like Bailey Ober whose arms are so long that they add a couple of mph of "perceived velocity." I think they see that as basically a bargain when they can get a guy who gets the same results without the actual (presumably expensive?) mph stat.

I'm definitely attracted to this strategy because it feels cleverer and more sophisticated than just chasing the guys who can throw hard. No idea how well it actually bears out.

I would expect the disparity to be similar if it only reflected bullpen innings, which I would think are where velocity has really impacted the modern game, save for Degrom and Scherzer types.  

Watch the playoff bullpen arms. The teams still playing. Go get us some of them. I could feel the energy as Chicago marched their bullpen arms in. I am 3000 miles away. The fans were energized too. 

It's not that velo is the end-all, but it allows for a much larger margin of error when pitching. This is why it is important. 

You need variety. Look those cereal snackpacks. Sadly, you also have one or two that nobody really wants to see on the mound.

I’ve always been a big believer in velocity, admittedly too much even. That’s why I was sad to see us deal Robles at the deadline for nothing, get rid of Graterol(that ended up a good trade) and now lose Colina for nothing. I really do think signing high velo guys is the only way our bullpen is competent next year. Not saying we need everyone to throw 100+, but one other guy that can match Alcalas velocity would be great. Also, before Rogers injury he was consistently 96-97 with the sinker, and I remember very distinctly on opening day he hit 98. If that development continues for next year, I think it will turn out very good.

28 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Looks like the Twins were dead last in avg fastball velo in 2020 while having a top 5 staff and 24th in avg fastball velo in 2019 while having a top 10 staff. 2019-2020 Twins pitching staffs had more WAR (according to fangraphs) than any other AL team and only behind the Dodgers in all of baseball while being 26th in fastball velo. Not sure that shows a great correlation.

Nice reflection - too true.