4 Things We Know After the Stunning Twins-Yankees Trade

I think one thing that also influenced the decision to move on from Donaldson has been the emergence of Miranda.  Two years ago the Twins had no 'elite' prospects at 3rd base.  Now they do.  

Urshela is insurance at short or 3rd if they can't land someone like Story or Miranda doesn't do well.  If they do, then Urshela is a utility guy.

It's a huge if, but IF they did use the money saved from Donaldson to sign Story to a long term deal then that would make Lewis(and Martin to a lesser extent in my opinion) and maybe even Arraez(with Urshela/Gordon as utility) trade chips for pitching.

Sanchez platoons better(offensively) with Jeffers than Garver and since he can also DH(maybe 1st base) you have the bench space to find a true backup catcher.

Long story short-I can see several possible plans.  And no, Falvey saying he doesn't "know" what will happen doesn't make him an idiot.  It makes him a realist.

5 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

I think there was consensus when JD was signed that the window was open and adding another slugger to a team that set a record for home runs might get them not only in the postseason

Was that really the consensus? Some believed it was a signing to save face because they didn't bring any pitching, and coming of the year they did, not spending money would have looked real bad. My biggest issues is they didn't do a trade like Gray on top of the signing JD. That would have made more sense, then trading for him now. I don't like the idea of trading JD to free up money for Story, because that means they will never sign more than one guy, now if trading JD was to sign  Story and free up money to bring on a pitcher, I can agree with that.

26 minutes ago, bighat said:

Good grief. If the Twins would've kept him, as soon as Donaldson pulled a calf muscle this year everyone would be sitting here complaining that the Twins didn't get rid of him when they could have.

I don't agree with that, I think the people that have been begging to trade him and punt 2022 on prospects would have been the ones saying that, which is no different then they have been saying for months.

Too many nags on this site.

Garver is not God's gift to catching.  When was the last time he threw out a runner?  His bat had plenty of holes in it, for prolonged periods of time.

And go back and look at how many posters ripped Roertvedt's bat.

Donaldson, he pulled his muscle in the first game of the year last year, in his first AB.  Would he even play 100 games this year?  That's like $300K a game.

Get a life.  Urshela is better than most people realize.  He's gutty and a hell of a defender.  I personally don't like Sanchez, but I'm not sure he will be around, and as a Part Time catcher, he is probably fine.

Twins have payroll flexibility, Buxton in center, some solid veteran contributors, a young nucleus coming up.  No, i'ts not a perfect team, but, it's a fun one to watch, with a lot of upside potential.  

Covid is over, we hope there won't be a World War, but goddamit, let's play some baseball.

The more I think about the Donaldson trade, the angrier I get. I am of the opinion this trade has made them worse off and it didn't have have to be made. Beyond that, I won't rehash the many reasons detailed by others above.

I do want to comment more on Gary Sanchez.  Where does he fit on this roster?  He can't catch. He is NOT a DH as some have suggested. I assume the Twins had to take on him and his $8 million as a condition of completing the deal, because I can't think of why the Twins would want him. I would much rather have kept Rordtvedt.  Oh...and he and Sonny Gray have a history...https://www.nj.com/yankees/2018/05/gary_sanchez_responds_to_sonny_gray_comments_then.html

Lovely...

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

Calling the Cruz trade a salary dump is extremely simplistic thinking.  Trading a rental in a 90+ loss season for a good pitching prospect is a great trade.

I agree that Cruz wasn't technically a salary dump, and was 100% the right thing to do. I also don't think Berrios was technically   a salary dump, but with that said per sportrac last year's Twins payroll was 120 million and it currently sits at 72 and change. Which IMO means they didn't re-invest that savings (Yet, hopefully) which at the end of the day is dumping salary. So even if they add Story and 20 some million, they have reduced payroll this year by approx 25%. Which isn't a good look, and as of right now made the team much worse.

1 hour ago, rv78 said:

I can understand the desire to get out from under Donaldsons contract. But doesn't that directly point to the FO making a mistake signing him in the first place? Did they think he would bring them a ring and just now realize he is deteriorating quickly? That his contract will be a detriment going forward? Short-sightedness is again, a mistake. Is trading for Sonny Gray really that good of a move? He's 31 and has had only 1 good season, 2019 in the last 6 and even then he only pitched 175 innings. Hardly a work horse or an Ace. Bailey Ober is the only Starter that is in the rotation this Front Office has drafted. Can we admit, so far they have failed. They had to trade for Maeda and Joe Ryan, have signed worthless Free Agents in Shoemaker, Happ, Martin Perez, Bartolo Colon, and others who are washed-up veterans. You will probably be able to add Dylan Bundy to that list. I feel that Falvine has taken the Terry Ryan approach and has decided to try to "Catch Lightning in a Bottle" or use the old "Hope and a Prayer" method. Now we trade away the best hitting catcher in the league and a first round pick in Petty for a decent SS and another prospect and then turn around and get a terrible hitting and fielding catcher and average 3B/SS in return for that SS, losing a really good young defensive catcher in the process. Seems we have gone backwards and for what? Money. Unless that money is spent for a top SS or Starting Pitcher "IN THEIR PRIME" and not some aging veteran this FO is making really bad moves and doesn't know what they are doing.

It's okay to admit a mistake.  I trust you more if you admit your mistakes.

2 hours ago, bighat said:

Anyone consider that maybe the Twins simply don't think Donaldson has much left in the tank? Or they believe his injuries are only going to get worse? Or both? If someone told you that Donaldson would play 90 games this year, would you take the over or under?

It wasn't just Donaldson's contract the Twins were unloading. Josh is an aging superstar who is both extremely vocal and injury prone. What I'm saying is, maybe unloading Donaldson didn't "downgrade" the Twins lineup as much as you think it did. At least consider it.

Are you assuming the Yankees are dumb?

3 hours ago, AKTwins said:

ESPN+ likes the trade for the twins.  If they sign Story, this makes sense.  Reading between the lines, it does not appear other teams are willing to give Story the huge contract to play SS.  Seems to be a perfect match, he can play SS in MN and the Twins have the money.  Maybe a little discount for him to play SS.  In a way they would trade Donaldson contract for Story’s contract, but would obviously owe more the long run for Story.  But story is around 7 years younger.  Seems like a good swap.
 

If they trade for, and extend, Manaea or Montas it makes even more sense.  For catcher, I think the FO believes a veteran defense first catcher is the same as Rortvedt.  Maybe they think Chris Williams will be ready.

Don't under estimate Chris Williams.  He may be one of the at least 3 catchers which will be necessary for the Twins, even assuming there are no serious catcher injuries this season. 

Nick - you nailed it.  I am completely on board with you. Now we have a question at 3B and I hope Urshela is not the new SS. We are weaker at C which is a premier position, we have now done all kinds of maneuvers in hopes of getting someone as good as Berrios and have failed, even losing our number one draft pick.  We have a catcher that NY was happy to get rid of who has seemed to lost his hit tool and is a lousy catcher.  

Will the Twins splurge on Story and then look to dump his contract in the future?  Is Story really that good when he is not at Coors field?  "For his career, Story is hitting.302/.367/.605 at Coors Field and.242/.310/.437 on the road." 

An interesting article and a wide variety of comments that all omit a most important point of inquiry. Baseball will have record revenues, a new CBA was signed, and the curse of Covid looks to be completely lifted. This should result in terrific optimism for businesses involved in the entertainment industry, including baseball.

The omission is any reference to the Twins expected potential budget. Target Field was built with public funds with the express promise by Jim Pohlad that the Twins would use the increased revenues to field a competitive team. The franchise has had strong earnings and slowly increased the budgets with a particularly increased expenditure after the Falvey and Levine hires. A low budget from the conservative Twins fans put a 2022 roster at around $130 million. It would be easy to justify a $150 million team. The Josh Donaldson signing was the first foray into spending for the Twins and before the trade with the Yankees their bottom line was near $100 million. This left room for an additional $30+ million to spend using the conservative numbers. I myself built my version of a 2022 team at $120 million. All of the talk about the problems with a contract such as Donaldson's doesn't work when you look at the numbers. When I read these comments I wonder if the Twins are tipping toward $150 million and look at the numbers. Nope, they are not. If the Pohlads had paid for Target Field with their own money it would be entirely their own deal. There should be some minimum of consideration of this history. 

There were a number of free agents available this year. The Twins signed Dylan Bundy. While it is possible that Trevor Story could be signed, this seems unlikely if Story sticks to leaked numbers like 6/$120 million. It is totally possible that solid trades could be made, yet no two pitchers would add any more than $18 million (Manaea, Castillo) as a maximum and the best trades would only add near $9 million (Montas, Lopez) to the expense sheet. All of these moves and keeping Donaldson would have still left the team with a roster around $130 million, the preferred number by Twins Daily. 

What is the direction or plan for the Twins in consideration of their possible budget? What are the numbers and justification? It is impossible to have any suggestions or justify any cuts unless there is some idea of a general range of where the limits of spending stand.

Nick, I agree 100% with your article about this fluid situation which the Twins FO has created.  Trading Donaldson was a necessary salary dump. Even though Donaldson had some good numbers, I feel there was more going on. I also feel the Yankees were looking for a trade to part ways with Sanchez. I feel that the 2022 Yankee dugout will provide plenty of fodder for the NY and national sports reporters. In fact, this would be a wonderful season to be writing a "tell-all" book about this 2022 Yankee team. It should be a dramatic season in the Bronx, if one  likes middle school drama, which I don't.

1 hour ago, bighat said:

About 20 teams in MLB would be happy to have Sanchez splitting time at the C position on their teams. Having a catcher with 30+ HR power who can DH on off days - along with a blossoming Jeffers - isn't exactly "blowing up" the position. That's my opinion, at least.

I’ll take the under on 30+ HRs this year - no matter how many ABs Sanchez gets at C or DH. On the other hand, if something happens to Jeffers and Sanchez is forced to play a lot of innings at C, I might take the over on 30+ passed balls.  

22 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

No way of knowing from my chair but the one that thing that seems (almost) obvious is this:

The Twins have been trying to move Donaldson's contract for probably awhile now and they finally found a taker.   

The other assumptions that I have (with no way of knowing) are not quite as obvious: 

Does this scenerio seem possible -

1. The Twins were looking for a SS

2. The were talking with the Rangers about IKF and probably were not talking about Garver originally.

3. The Yankees were looking for a SS and also talking with the Rangers about IKF. 

4. In order for the Twins to beat the Yankees offer for IKF (Whatever it was) Garver became the new ask.  

5. Once the Twins acquired IKF... The Yankees started talking to the Twins about IKF. 

6. The Yankees were probably well aware of the Twins desire to move the Donaldson contract and agreed to take on the money in order to acquire the shorter term SS they needed.   

7. The Twins would have insisted on Urshela being part of the deal because someone would have to play SS if they couldn't replace IFK. 

8. After this new found opportunity and abupt change in gameplan... Falvey and Lavine quickly realize that they needed to make a phone call to the agent of Trevor Story because they were not expecting to move the Donaldson contract and now they have the money to fill the SS spot.  

9. The agent of Trevor Story probably knows that the Twins really need a SS now. 

10. Knowing the Twins need a SS. The agent of Trevor Story is probably trying to drive the price up and is having conversations with the media to float the impression that other teams are also interested in Trevor Story when there will be very few teams interested in him at the contract he is trying to get. 

11. We will have to wait this out but the Twins pretty much have to sign Trevor Story now and I don't believe Story has a lot of options left that will allow him to stay at SS. 

 

BTW... the inclusion of Andrus in a deal to lessen the price of a Starting Pitcher with Oakland was something that I thought about. It's a possible solution however... there are some things that really bug me about that idea. 

Andrus is really struggling and simply doesn't look like an MLB player anymore. Taking your financial gains and giving up 15M to Andrus just to get a deal done for a SP cheaper doesn't address SS and the Twins were clearly trying to address SS to contend. 

After giving up Garver to solve the SS problem and not trading Garver for a prospect. Then trading a highly ranked future pitcher for Sonny Gray are the actions of a team that is trying to contend.

If they are trying to contend and they clearly are. The newly found money from the Donaldson trade has to go somewhere and Story is the most obvious answer in the current team context.       

If Story does sign with someone else. Then... I don't know how the Twins dig themselves out of it.    

 

 

Yeah I don't love Andrus either but given what they got with Simmons they can probably work around him.  That 15M next year is gonna hurt though and from what I see he actually has negative trade value right now which tells you just how bad he is.

I agree it is a waiting game right now.  Story can't sign until Correa does because teams that miss out on Correa could up the ante for Story.  Once Correa and Freeman sign things should move pretty fast on the FA side I would think.  

Have to believe Oakland has a lot offers to choose from on Montas and I doubt the Twins win that one but it is fun to dream.

Not that anyone cares or thinks about or remembers my comments on the TD, but I have been very vocal about moving JD and using the cash to sign a SS.  I was happy if it happened before the season or if we kept JD until the deadline to tutor Miranda or to see if we could get into contention.

If Story (or Correa lol) is signed (which I fully expect), this trade could work out well. Essentially our left side is Urshela and Story replacing JD and IKf. In both cases we have Miranda on the way at 3B. I think that in 2022 and certainly in 2023 that we are better off.

The cost was losing our defensive catching depth. I was ok with losing Garver for IKF as I envisioned Jeffers and Rortvedt as a strong complimentary duo behind the dish for several years. No we have a hole. Hopefully it gets solved.

Now on the other hand, if the plan is Urshela at SS, well …..

3 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Not that anyone cares or thinks about or remembers my comments on the TD, but I have been very vocal about moving JD and using the cash to sign a SS.  I was happy if it happened before the season or if we kept JD until the deadline to tutor Miranda or to see if we could get into contention.

If Story (or Correa lol) is signed (which I fully expect), this trade could work out well. Essentially our left side is Urshela and Story replacing JD and IKf. In both cases we have Miranda on the way at 3B. I think that in 2022 and certainly in 2023 that we are better off.

The cost was losing our defensive catching depth. I was ok with losing Garver for IKF as I envisioned Jeffers and Rortvedt as a strong complimentary duo behind the dish for several years. No we have a hole. Hopefully it gets solved.

Now on the other hand, if the plan is Urshela at SS, well …..

I too felt Donaldson was no longer a fit and Story's OPS and Donaldson aren't that far off and Story is younger and plays a position of need.  If they do manage to get Story spending on an up the middle position makes more sense than spending at 3rd where we have several prospects who can play there in the future and as noted Miranda could be ready this year,.

I upgraded my whirlwind summary in the forums - day 5 - I put in the NYT reflection on the Yankees which has them giddy over their infield rebuild (with our players) and then from today's tribune - Baldelli says Urshela will be given a chance to be SS.  So we have an infield rebuild too and I think the Yankees are happier. 

One cannot read any posting here and elsewhere without seeing Story's name mentioned in probably more than half of the comments.  I ask, what is the love affair with Story?  The numbers I have seen indicate he is average to mediocre away from Coors Field.  If that is true, why would the Twins want to tie themselves to a contract both bigger and longer than Donaldson's?  I just don't understand the love affair many of you have with this guy and hope like heck the Twins don't sign him.  

The FO is thinking a year ahead. Their goal for again being competitive is 2023, not 2022. Dumping Donaldson and his contract had to happen in order to open up opportunities for younger players like Miranda and underused players like Gordon and Arraez; the guys they'll need to be competitive in 2023. We weren't going to be competitive in 2022 with or without Donaldson.

Now if they can dump Sano, and with the DH coming to NL they should be able to find a taker, Kirilloff can settle in at first, and Larnach, Celestino and Rooker get more AB's and experience in the Bigs and we find out which players are going to help in 2023 and which ones aren't.

Players and managers have to think in the "Now". Executives have to think in the "Future". So I'm cutting the FO some slack. One last time.

4. The Twins now have all kinds of flexibility to make at least one HUGE move.

Can we please put a stop to this argument? The Twins had this flexibility even without paying NYY to take Donaldson. Besides the incredibly affordable Buxton extension, they made no other free agent signings this offseason. We could have strengthened our infield defense and our catching considerably just by not making that trade, and then possibly even added Story to boot. We should be looking at these transaction from this lens as well, because these C and INF holes are going to bite us hard in 2022 - right when we're trying to get our much-promised "pitching pipeline" ready for MLB success.

4 hours ago, bighat said:

maybe unloading Donaldson didn't "downgrade" the Twins lineup as much as you think it did.

That's possible, sure. But losing Kiner-Falefa (or Garver) and Rortvedt undoubtedly did downgrade us. Defensively and offensively. People seem to forget that Urshela also has hamstring issues, which is no doubt why the Yankees unloaded him on us. And Sanchez can't hit or field.

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

7. The Twins would have insisted on Urshela being part of the deal because someone would have to play SS if they couldn't replace IFK. 

You have many interesting thoughts in your comments but it was likely the Yankees who  suggested  Urshela because he is an expensive utility player. Both Polanco and Gordon on the current roster are better at shortstop than Urshela and we  want Polanco at 2B and we want to use Gordon as a utility if/of. The Twins could have, at the very least, held back Rortvedt whom I believe to hold potential going forward. 

14 minutes ago, Dave The Dastardly said:

The FO is thinking a year ahead. Their goal for again being competitive is 2023, not 2022.

Dumping Rortvedt and Kiner-Falefa for nothing is not a move that strengthens our chances in 2023, no. If Donaldson wasn't performing, he could have been put on the IL, which would still give Miranda an opportunity. Plus, Donaldson possibly could have mentored him. If Donaldson did do well but the team stunk in 2022, he could have been traded at the deadline (maybe even for a lottery ticket prospect) and the Twins could have eaten the final year of salary.

I fail to see how anything that happened in this last trade was forward thinking.