Twins Sign Shortstop Tim Beckham

13 hours ago, Chachi said:

That was you!?!!!  Nice catch!

I thought I saw you at that game Chachi.

17 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

I'd rather see Palacios  ,,, everyone raves about his defense and his hitting made progress last year in the minors .. 

Palacios is eligible for the rule 5 draft and we could lose him if there is a rule 5 draft this year ...

 

With the 40 man current construction, for every none pitcher that gets put on somebody must go on the 60 day or be cut, so to see Palacios, my guess is Gordon will be gone or more pitching injuries.

Also IMO, I don't think a team is going to take a 25 SS that has a lifetime .715 OPS in the minors (He has been playing AA since 2018) so for him to do what he did at Wichita last year shouldn't be surprising, it should have been expected. Nick Gordon put up better numbers in AA at age 21 and 22.

And for a guy like Palacios, the Covid missed year shouldn't be an excuse, he has been in the minors since he was 17 in (2014), lots of people get hurt and miss a year. He has had a couple of good years in the minors after basically repeating a level.

It is almost sad that as Twins fans we are talking about guys like Palacios being a help or possible solution to a problem. Do other "real" teams talk about losing a guy to rule 5 that was a FA minor league signing?

Beckham?  He hasn't been in the majors since 2019.  Not even worthy of taking up a roster spot in St. Paul.  OH PLEASE.

On 2/5/2022 at 1:23 PM, Rosterman said:

Well, they got their temporary shortstop on the cheap, and got him signed so he can work out early if there is still a lockout. Don't picture them signing anyone else. They think they got the one the need for a...bargain.

Unfortunately, I think you are 100% correct. ?

On 2/5/2022 at 1:44 PM, RJA said:

If this is anything other than a flyer on a depth piece, we are in trouble.

... we're in trouble!

He must not have had many teams knocking on his door.  He will be down the depth chart here, and unless he really plays well, he will not see much playing time here.  I do not expect much from him, other than playing in St. Paul with possible play when injuries hit.  Good luck to him, and maybe he impresses and can be flipped for something later in the year. 

I wonder how minor league signings for MLB veterans works in regard to the MLBPA? If owners went ahead with replacement players, Beckham isn't technically represented by the MLBPA right now is he? Not sure exactly how that works.

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

It honestly blows my mind that people get so up in arms over these minor league deals. Remember when Cave got resigned to a nothing deal and people's heads exploded because he was still on the 40-man and it meant he was basically guaranteed a starting spot and all that then he was removed from the 40-man like 2 days later? I know things aren't exciting with the lockout ruining the offseason, but we need to gain some perspective. These deals happen all the time. They aren't some org altering thing or any sort of guarantee that he's the starting SS opening day. It's a minor league deal with a ST invite. It means nothing. Teams hand them out like candy to get veteran players to take minor league deals. Can we all just relax?

The primary source of consternation at the time of the Cave deal still exists today; he has an inside track to getting innings as the 4th OFer. Rooker doesn't look MLB caliber with the bat or glove, Larnach needs to show some sort of ability to handle off-speed pitches plus his corner D, at least in LF, is suspect, and Celestino was nowhere close to ready last year.

The Twins showed no interest in signing a RH 4th OFer during the pre lockout FA. That doesn't mean they won't, they've got plenty of money, but time and options aren't on their side. 

Barring a major splash at SS, Beckham's only roadblock (if he isn't awful in STP - big "if,") to getting innings at the major league level is a middling journeyman SS a la Simmons. It's highly unlikely we see Lewis in the majors this year, let alone at SS, and Martin seems destined to find a defensive home elsewhere. 

In isolation, if the signings are about bringing in JAG to be minor league depth then sure, whatever. The issue is that they're seemingly a realistic step or two away from "filling," a couple glaring holes on the major league roster, at least currently. 

7 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

...Rooker doesn't look MLB caliber with the bat or glove...

I disagree with that take on Rooker. 

Who else are they supposed to sign right now??  Everything is always made out to be a big deal when I'm pretty sure this one isn't.

6 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

To me you're just defining minor league depth. People were all angry last year because the Twins didn't have "depth" to deal with their injuries. Now people are mad that they have former major leaguers in the minors. Cave has no more of an inside track than any other player not on the 40-man. They're going to fill the 40-man before the season starts. They're not going to cut someone to put Cave on it over Rooker, Larnach, or Celestino.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, though. They didn't sign Beckham to be their starting SS or waive Cave with the intention of him being their 4th OFer. I'm thoroughly confused by the idea that signing Beckham is bad if you expect their move is to sign a "middling journeyman SS" and you don't think Lewis or Martin are the answer at SS this year. Signing Beckham has no impact on, and makes no statement about, them making a "major splash" at SS. Either they're signing Story, a "middling journeyman," or making a trade. None of those things are impacted by Beckham. If you don't think Lewis or Martin are the answer you should be happy they added a former major leaguer between them and the bigs to give more cushion.

Is the better move for a team that says they want to compete to have no former major leaguers in the minors as depth for injuries to guys on the 40-man? That doesn't make even a little sense to me. Why is it bad to have former major leaguers (who, by the way, had at least a little success in the majors) in the minors? I don't understand how it's a bad thing in any way, shape, or form.

Depth isn't just a body to plug and go. Rob Refsnyder was depth, he could step in and hold water. Dobnak or Thorpe, that supposed first line of defense for the rotation, weren't depth, they were just bad. All depth isn't good depth right? There's fat that can be trimmed from the 40 man if the Twins choose to do so, but more likely injuries will allow to them to avoid making any such decision. Seeing as how the Twins opted to bring Cave back, despite how bad he was, I'd argue he probably does have more of an inside track.  

To be clear, I'm not claiming the Beckham move impacts who starts opening day at SS.

If a guy like Beckham is supposed to be a last resort ("depth") but the only thing standing between him and the starting SS position is another low ceiling potential bust then he's not really a last resort. We saw this with the pitching staff last year; guys were put in position(s) where the team needed them to punch above their weight and when they couldn't it was a disaster. 

Has anything this franchise done during the offseason struck you as a move that a team determined to compete in '22 would make? I'm not arguing that former major leaguers have no place in the Twins' system. I am saying that low ceiling/rock bottom floor guys with clear paths to playing time do nothing for the present or the future. 

16 hours ago, bean5302 said:

I disagree with that take on Rooker. 

He's a negative defender in both corners, and you can't K 33% of the time and rock a sub .700 OPS if that's the case. 

On 2/5/2022 at 2:26 PM, Sconnie said:

That or a potential scab

You brought up an interesting point, Sconnie. Because we have plenty of AAA SS depth with Gordon & Palacio and aquickly advancing Lewis and Martin plus Javier has to be hungry. Or even compitition at utility it seems we have a lot. So what's up with this addition? Only sensible answer is scabbing, Yes we have some possible MLB depth at these positions but all but Palacio are on the 40 man if MLB clubs decide to go with AAA players, Beckham would be our depth. Also we are very shallow at CF, we don't have any true MLB ready  CFer, anyone close is on the 40 man. It only makes sense to prioritize seeking out viable true CFers but so far nothing. The Twins are in love with Cave (who is no CFer) and they want no competion for him in that scenario, They'll give him every opportunity to produce some stats that they can cherry pick to pitch at an easily influenced Twins fan base.

A strike and MLB clubs playing scabs can not end well. But it seems that the Twins are positioning themselves for that possibilty.

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Who do you suggest the Twins, or any major league team, sign to minor league deals that are significantly better than Cave and Beckham? I'd honestly like a list of players you think would be willing to take a minor league deal with a ST invite that have had better seasons than Cave and Beckham have in the majors. Who do you want them to have as depth? Who should be the non-40-man roster players in the minors that will get you excited about the Twins depth?

Again, the issue is the role. If the Twins are willing to plug in Martin/Lewis at SS, or move Polanco it's a different story, but those options seem unlikely. As it stands, Beckham is a tweaked hamstring in April away from being the starting SS. If he's in AAA all year and truly just minor league filler then it doesn't matter. Your Plan B, particularly at SS, should be actual depth, not just a warm body.

4 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Again, give me names. You want better depth. Describe what that actually looks like. Which players better than Tim Beckham are you wanting as the backup SS for the MN Twins? Who says Plan B isn't Martin, Lewis, or Polanco? That's your assumption, not mine. What legit ML SS is going to be willing to go to any ML team and be the utility infielder or the AAA SS to start the year? Give me examples of what depth moves the Twins should be making. I mean you listed Rob Refsnyder as real depth before. That's 100% 20/20 hindsight to list him as real depth but suggest Tim Beckham isn't. Go look at their career stats. Refsnyder has negative WAR for crying out loud. Beckham has a career .733 OPS. Not out of this world, but lightyears ahead of your desired depth of Refsnyder and his career .618 OPS.

Whoever they sign or trade for, Polanco, Martin, Lewis, hell even rotating Gordon through if we're going full tank mode. That's 4-5 names on the team that do more for the Twins present/future than Beckham. It certainly could be. Of course, that's why you find a utility option, or ideally turn to someone in house.

Sure, Refsnyder cratered in the 2nd half after returning from injury, and maybe he's a bad example, but he was also option D behind Buxton, Cave, and Kepler. If that's Beckham's role, option D, then fine, it's already a dumpster fire by that point. Nothing the Twins have done or said suggests any of the prospect options are in play, we can hope they're willing to consider moving Polanco.

That leaves us with an option B who has been a below average defender at the position the previous 5 or so years. The last time he was on a major league field (2 years ago) he was getting popped for PEDs, and the season prior to his usage was on par with the Refsnyder career OPS you dislike. 

22 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

If you think Polanco, Martin, Lewis, and even Gordon are better depth then what are you even complaining about? Tim Beckham has been a league average hitter over 5 ML seasons. Is your argument that he was juicing that entire time and never got tested until 2019? He's certainly not a good defender at SS. Can't argue that. But, again, he's a proven MLB hitter on a minor league contract. How is that in any way bad? How is it bad to have league average MLB hitters as depth in your minor leagues?

So Cave was bad depth and Refsnyder was a bad example of depth, and Beckham has had a better career than both, but he's also bad depth? I seriously don't understand what you want out of depth players.

The difference in our stances seems to be that you're at least somewhat convinced this is it. This is the last depth move they make and they'll go to him the second there's any need at SS. The comment you originally responded to from me was literally me saying there's no reason to assume that and people who complained about the Cave deal were immediately shown that their assumptions were wrong and he was waived from the 40-man.

So I'll end this back and forth where it started. There's a lockout so no big signings are happening so I get that there's more emotion tied to these minor league deals, but there's literally no reason to think this signing is some sort of sign that the Twins are expecting to rely on Tim Beckham in any way, shape, or form in 2022. And even if he's a main part of their depth plan, he's much better than any other depth options they've had recently. As a backup infielder you can do much worse than a league average hitter with legit power. And he's not even their backup infielder, he's not on the 40-man and, unless he lights up spring training and others flop, he'll start the year in the minors. The options for improvement on your AAA, depth infield signings is quite small and that's why you've yet to provide a single name that would be a better signing right now. We want Drew Maggi back instead? Depth pieces like this are often bad glove, solid bat or solid glove, bad bat. That's why they're depth pieces. This is a bad glove, solid bat infield depth guy. Palacios is a solid glove, bad bat infield depth guy. Now they have one of each. Not a bad place to be in the middle of a lockout.

I think I've been pretty clear that I don't feel it's likely the Twins plug any of those options in at SS. Martin, Lewis, and Gordon seem like pipe dreams and I don't believe the team wants to move Polanco off 2B. Beckham hasn't even played in the majors the last 2 years, he juiced in '19, and he wasn't close to an average hitter in '18. Maybe we have different definitions of league average. 

They gambled on a Cave bounce back and lost last year. He was solid in '18 and '19. Right now, yeah, he's bad depth. Beckham's had a longer career, at least at the major league level, but I'd stop short of calling it better. If he was coming off a run of three year run (2018-2020) like Cave was last year then maybe this would be a different conversation, but you've already acknowledged his defensive issues and the I guess we'll agree to disagree on his offensive prowess. What do I want out of depth players? Be part of the team's plans moving forward, or have some sort of plus quality that aids the team in the present. I don't see Beckham doing either. 

Yeah, I don't see them signing a starting SS and a utility player capable of covering the position, at least with Gordon and Arraez on the roster. Do you? Honestly, are you convinced they'll move Polanco or reverse course on the prospects? They still need to spend on at least 2-3 rotation arms plus the bullpen. 

I don't know why the scope for a backup SS needs to be narrowed to the discard bin. Other avenues exist. I gave you options on this team that would be better in one way or another. I'm not digging through 29 other rosters + farm systems to compile a list of replacement level SS, or arguing what FA IFers are available/willing to play part time. If the validity of anything I've argued is predicated on said list than you win. 

20 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You can't have it both ways. Either they have options on this team or they don't. You don't get to list Martin, Lewis, and Gordon as better options and then say they aren't options. And I have every expectation that Royce Lewis will debut and play SS for the Twins at some point during 2022 if they don't sign Story or trade for a long-term SS. And both Gordon and Polanco played SS for the Twins last year so writing them off completely seems misguided at best. In fact Simmons was the only SS on the Twins roster to start 2021 which gives every reason to believe Polanco was their Plan B for a long-term injury at SS since they had nobody in the minors with the track record of success that Beckham has.

Beckham's OPS+ over 5 major league seasons is 98. He's almost the exact definition of league average. He had an .876 OPS in AAA last year. That could drop by 100 points in moving to the majors and he'd still have been above average.

I don't need names of current FAs. Give me an idea of a guy you think would be willing to take a minor league contract who would be a significant improvement on Tim Beckham. Ehire Adrianza? That type of guy? He's had an OPS+ of 100 or better 1 time in 9 seasons and that was a 103 in 83 games for the Twins in 2019. Better glove for sure. But his career OPS+ is 84. That's the level of player we're talking about here. He signed a $1.5M deal with the Braves last year at the age of 31. Beckham got a minor league deal this year at the age of 32. One is a solid glove/bad bat utility infielder. The other is a solid bat/bad glove utility infielder. Your expectations for minor league contract players are far too high. He's minor league depth.

So, like I said at the beginning, we need to have some perspective when we're talking about these deals. The offseason isn't over. We have literally no reason to believe Tim Beckham will be anything more than the Saints opening day SS in 2022. If the lockout ends and the Twins don't trade for or sign a SS better than him then you can freak out. Until then all he is is minor league depth. And as far as minor league depth goes he's better than your typical AAA SS.

Do I see them as options (Gordon only in another totally lost season?) Yes. Do I believe the Twins do? No. What's the controversy? Please, Gordon couldn't get reps at SS despite the season being over and Simmons being the worst offensive player in the league. I hope Polanco is, and if/when Lewis debuts at SS I'm right there with you cheering him. 

His only decent offensive output in the last 4 years was the season he juiced. I really don't care about early careers numbers. We aren't going to agree here.

Why are we fixated on a washed vet signing a minor league deal?

I have no doubt the Twins start someone else at SS opening day, but that was never my point right? Precisely why I bolded the part about perspective. I've said my peace on depth vs. bodies. Maybe you're right and Beckham is plan D,E, or Z. I hope so....