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  • Shohei Ohtani: Minnesota Twin?? Analyzing the Impossible


    Peter Labuza

    Imagine sitting down on April 6th for the first Twins game of the 2023 season. It’s still a bit cold for baseball, but the warmth of seeing the team again soothes the cold plastic of the seats. The Astros are in town—not the team you exactly want on Opening Day to get fans excited. But the park is packed because of the name on the mound. The Twins have done it. They've gone and got a front-line starter that is worthy of our attention. And guess what: he’s also hitting clean up.

    Image courtesy of Jeffrey Becker-USA TODAY Sports

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    There are plenty of names that Twins fans know are almost entirely out of the payroll desires of the ownership group, making it easy to dismiss that someone like Jacob DeGrom, Justin Verlander, or Carlos Rodón will be in uniform next year. But given this is a long winter, it is never too early to dream up the impossible. This is where I present to you: Minnesota Twins Starting Pitcher and Designated Hitter Shohei Ohtani

    Although Aaron Judge is almost certain to win the American League MVP award, Ohtani’s out-of-this-world performance likely made for some hesitancy on many ballots. After all, Ohtani not only continued to be the phenom two-way player that dazzled in 2021; he was genuinely both a better hitter and a better pitcher.

    In 2022, he slashed .273/.356/.519 with 34 dingers for a 142 WRC+, which would have made him the Twins best hitter had he played for them this season. Of course, what makes Ohtani impressive is that he threw 166 innings of 2.33 ERA ball including a 1.01 WHIP. Twins fans are (rightly) falling head over heels for both Joe Ryan and Sonny Gray, but both their ERAs shot over 3.00 and neither made it to 150 innings. By the way, Ohtani spent the druthers of August and September as the Angels fell out of contention inventing new pitches to throw and came close to a no hitter.

    If Dave St. Peter wants to complain about falling attendance at the park, what better way to go in on a once-in-a-generation talent? His numbers are already set at a $30 million arbitration, which would be no different than keeping the talents of Carlos Correa. He is Shohei Ohtani. 

    Of course, the question is how exactly would Ohtani fit into the Twins organization, which is not as simple as slotting into rotations and batting orders might suggest. Under Joe Maddon, the Angels employed a six-person rotation to keep Ohtani’s arm loose, which might not be exactly what the Twins want. That being said, much has been made of the apparent depth of the Twins rotation now with a number of prospects finding their legs. That might work well for Ohtani’s needs with some rookies rotating in every month to help fill a void. It would also mean perhaps one less reliever spot, a choice that could certainly backfire. But Ohtani makes up for that too by going long into games as a pitcher, and no longer requiring strategy of DH management after MLB created a specific rule just for him.

    The trickier part for the Twins would be constructing the lineup. The Twins played around quite a bit with their Designated Hitter position in 2021, trying to use it as much for resting players and in particular as Byron Buxton battled through debilitating pain. The Ohtani equation would almost entirely remove that possibility, which means praying for a healthy Buxton to find a place in the field every day or only coming in for the right pinch-hitting opportunity.

    The Twins might then also want to pull the trigger on a Gio Urshela trade simply to place Jose Miranda as an everyday third baseman (or have two platoons with Luis Arraez and Alex Kirilloff doing the same over at first). This is perhaps the flaw that made Ohtani so wonderful in Los Angeles while finding himself in a Sisyphean Odyssey of watching batters who might be better fits at DH struggle in the field. 

    Of course, the big question would be how much is an Ohtani trade worth given the Twins average-ish prospect farm (The Twins placed 18th on Keith Law’s 2022 list). For a possible comparison, look at what the Padres gave up to acquire Juan Soto. In order to get the Ted Williams-esque hitter alongside rental Josh Bell, AJ Preller dealt three of the five top prospects to the Nationals. Soto came with two additional years of arbitration time that the Padres will likely mitigate this off-season with an extension, which meant a higher cost than the one year of service left on Ohtani’s already set arbitration numbers. That might make the trades comparable, but the Padres were giving away players near the Top of Baseball America’s Top 100. The Twins would likely have to say goodbye to both shortstop prospects Royce Lewis and Brooks Lee—and that would just be the start for the pitching-desperate Angels. And at a time in which the Twins are desperate for a shortstop once again, they may find themselves watching magic on the mound while slapping their forehead for every swing and miss they place in another one-year low-cost rental in the spot.

    Then again, what would be more fun than watching a legend in the making? Why shouldn't this front office go into Five Blades Modes?  If anything, an Ohtani trade is a good place to understand and evaluate the strength of the Falvey-Levine regime; because he can shift the balance of a team in so many ways, you can see how different a team would have to build in order to fully utilize his talents. But before he starts mowing down Twins players in pinstripes, it is still fun to imagine the opposite future being possible. 

     

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    One of the few players in baseball that is worth every dollar he is paid.  His unique skillset, his personality, plus the Japanese coverage... Probably truly worth $50m per year.

    Probably would return the value of just about any package the Twins could put together, but the high injury risk of SP just makes it not worth it IMO.

    Fun  to think about though...

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    26 minutes ago, Fezig said:

    It doesn't matter what the Twins would pay because no pitcher in their right mind would want to play for a team that doesn't let it's starters pitch more than 5 innings.

    So. Much. This. 

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    Unless we can extend him, which I have no clue what that extension would look like, as there is no one to ever compare him to, I would not traded for a 1 year rental on him.  It would cost way too much to get just 1 year from, and with only getting a pick back in return after he turns down the QO is not enough.  I would love to have him and sign him long term but doubt we will.

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    10 hours ago, Fezig said:

    It doesn't matter what the Twins would pay because no pitcher in their right mind would want to play for a team that doesn't let it's starters pitch more than 5 innings.

    I am really wondering why the Twins are getting whacked for not letting their starters pitch late into games?  In 2022, the average start lasted 5.22 IP.  Seems to me this is not a Twins issue, but a baseball issue.

    Are there pitchers that are allowed to go longer into games?  Sure.  But those are quality names, higher-end pitchers.  The Twins have no one on their roster proven to handle that workload.

    Sonny Gray?  His 10.00 ERA the third time through the lineup should squash any discussion there.

    Dylan Bundy, Chris Archer, et. al.?  Do we really want more innings from them?

    Joe Ryan (or any Twins system guy)?  Came up through the system pitching 5-6 innings per start.  It is what they know and are used to...

    We really need to chill out on this topic and realize that this is the new norm in baseball.  Seven inning guys are now the outlier.

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    19 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

    I am really wondering why the Twins are getting whacked for not letting their starters pitch late into games?  In 2022, the average start lasted 5.22 IP.  Seems to me this is not a Twins issue, but a baseball issue.

    Are there pitchers that are allowed to go longer into games?  Sure.  But those are quality names, higher-end pitchers.  The Twins have no one on their roster proven to handle that workload.

    Sonny Gray?  His 10.00 ERA the third time through the lineup should squash any discussion there.

    Dylan Bundy, Chris Archer, et. al.?  Do we really want more innings from them?

    Joe Ryan (or any Twins system guy)?  Came up through the system pitching 5-6 innings per start.  It is what they know and are used to...

    We really need to chill out on this topic and realize that this is the new norm in baseball.  Seven inning guys are now the outlier.

    AGREED. Can’t believe how many people in these forums think if our starters pitched 2/3 of an inning more per game we’d still be in the playoffs. Gray, Mahle, Archer, Bundy all have had arm problems plus other issues with their bodies. Period. Ryan was a rookie…..no rookie throws excessive innings, at least not since the 90’s.

    There are maybe 12 guys in MLB that could be considered Aces…..Houston has 2…….3 or 4 are hurt and not actively pitching much in ‘22.

    We just need stable guys that can throw 4-7 innings and have us within a run or ahead when they leave. Expecting Rodon (injury risk) to be Bob Gibson for 3-5 years is fantasy. I’m all for adding “front line starter” but there are no Verlander’s (Aces) floating around without the attention of at least 20 other teams!!!

    As an aside, there is no combination of prospects that are too costly for Shohei Ohtani…….”front end starter” with 2.66 ERA AND he hit 34 dingers and hit .276. He’s 2 really good players in one. Spending prospects to get “2 highly effective contributors” is a wonderful deal if any organization can pull it off!! ……….he’s better offensively than Carlos Correa AND he had a 2.66 ERA!!! $44 million per year for 5 years is a deal!…..maybe 7 years?

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    Our pitchers do not go the third time through the order because they are not good enough to do that.  Ohtani is one of the few aces who can get further into the game as he showed when the Twins played the Angels this year.

    I would entertain signing him ONLY if we can extend him.  I agree, he is not worth what we would have to give up for a one-year rental.

    What he is is a player that would entice fans to come to the ballpark every day that he is in the lineup.  The increased fan interest and revenue may alone be enough for the Twins to have sincere consideration.  Just retain at least one prospect shortstop and sign a stop gap until he is ready.

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    3 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

    I am really wondering why the Twins are getting whacked for not letting their starters pitch late into games?  In 2022, the average start lasted 5.22 IP.  Seems to me this is not a Twins issue, but a baseball issue.

    Are there pitchers that are allowed to go longer into games?  Sure.  But those are quality names, higher-end pitchers.  The Twins have no one on their roster proven to handle that workload.

    Sonny Gray?  His 10.00 ERA the third time through the lineup should squash any discussion there.

    Dylan Bundy, Chris Archer, et. al.?  Do we really want more innings from them?

    Joe Ryan (or any Twins system guy)?  Came up through the system pitching 5-6 innings per start.  It is what they know and are used to...

    We really need to chill out on this topic and realize that this is the new norm in baseball.  Seven inning guys are now the outlier.

    I'm happy to see the sanity here. 

    You are going to have to climb much farther up the ladder and get the ear of Grandpa Manfred and Uncle Clark in order to get the Twins to pitch SPs deeper into games. 

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    Ah, the joys of the off-season. The time that dreams are made...and destroyed. I'd give up Lewis in a heartbeat to get Ohtani but it won't happen. I wouldn't touch DeGrom who appears to be slowing down from multiple injuries. Verlander would be good but would need kid gloves to not be overworked. Rodon would be nice but we can't afford him. I've said it before that today's game is a bullpen game and, if a team doesn't have a bullpen that can go out there almost every day and pitch 3-4 innings of shutdown baseball, the team won't win. Thus, we need to make sure we have 6-8 top bullpen pitchers because we can't afford the top starters who may go past the 6th inning.

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    I HATE dreaming of the 'impossible' with this team. The Twins, need to get started NOW on working deals. I know the season hasn't officially ended, so we can't make any 'deals', but we CANNOT be last to get started again this year! And, just to remind everyone, we had a shot at signing Rodon last year, just dragged our feet and didn't. Signed on March 11th to a 2yr $44mm deal. Felt it more important to sign Buxton (already under contract) to a 10-year deal. Buy the way, he played just 92 games and just 57 of those in CF. But we did get Dylan Bundy all locked up before the lockout. 

    And this notion of 'platooning' Arraez and ANYONE is just ridiculous! What else does this young man have to do to prove his worth on this team? He played in 144 games and batted .316! The anointed one [Buxton] played in just 92 games and batted .224. I know he hit 28 HR's, but how did that help us, down the stretch? Get Arraez in the lineup and LEAVE HIM THERE!

    Stick with what makes sense; if Correa wants to come back, let him. I don't think he will have two bad seasons at the plate, and I had no issues with his defense. If he chooses to walk, then get Lewis back in here, and sign a veteran to back him up [injuries] and be a utility player. Throw money at a top line rotation guy [DeGrom] and fill the back end with our youngsters [Canterino, Varland and Woods Richardson].

    There will be no lockout this year, so the idea that an agent is going to gift their elite client to the Twins [Correa], is a fairytale. The team needs to start realizing who they can do without (both on AND off the field) and get to work, fans are waiting.

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    Correa was a free agent. Shohei is not. Carlos "only" cost money. Ohtani would cost similar money, every farm hand we have, a few major leaguers and perpetual Executive Producer credits on all future Pohlad movies. For a rental player I might add.

    I am channeling Dana Carvey doing George Sr. in saying, "Not gonna happen."     

     

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    I do not think Ohtani will be a Twin next year. I also am not sure what a trade package would be. If the Angels decide they cannot pay him, there is no way they can expect to get back equal value. No team will trade their ace and best hitter. So the Twins might not have to give up as much as you might think, but no way are the Twins going to sign him.

     

     

     

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    On 10/31/2022 at 9:40 AM, Fire Dan Gladden said:

    I am really wondering why the Twins are getting whacked for not letting their starters pitch late into games?  In 2022, the average start lasted 5.22 IP.  Seems to me this is not a Twins issue, but a baseball issue.

    Are there pitchers that are allowed to go longer into games?  Sure.  But those are quality names, higher-end pitchers.  The Twins have no one on their roster proven to handle that workload.

    Sonny Gray?  His 10.00 ERA the third time through the lineup should squash any discussion there.

    Dylan Bundy, Chris Archer, et. al.?  Do we really want more innings from them?

    Joe Ryan (or any Twins system guy)?  Came up through the system pitching 5-6 innings per start.  It is what they know and are used to...

    We really need to chill out on this topic and realize that this is the new norm in baseball.  Seven inning guys are now the outlier.

    If players like Joe Ryan are the norm in which they can't go beyond 6 innings in the minors then we can understand why there are fewer "quality names, higher-end pitchers. In speaking with a former Twins coach, the problem is the game is run by people who've never played and look at the game through a computer. If modern athletes are better conditioned than players even 20 years ago there's no reason the modern player can't go more than 6 innings and throw more than 100 pitches. 

    I'll take Sonny Gray's 10 ERA with a chance he can bring it down compared to an average reliever that couldn't cut it as a starter. 

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    3 minutes ago, Fezig said:

    If players like Joe Ryan are the norm in which they can't go beyond 6 innings in the minors then we can understand why there are fewer "quality names, higher-end pitchers. In speaking with a former Twins coach, the problem is the game is run by people who've never played and look at the game through a computer. If modern athletes are better conditioned than players even 20 years ago there's no reason the modern player can't go more than 6 innings and throw more than 100 pitches. 

    I'll take Sonny Gray's 10 ERA with a chance he can bring it down compared to an average reliever that couldn't cut it as a starter. 

    So many things I disagree with here:

    1) You are assuming that a pitcher conditioned in today's era can last better than a pitcher conditioned 20 years ago.  There is no data to support that.  Pitching is inherently violent on the pitcher's body.  Many things factor in to their ability pitch longer, including genetics.  On one end. you have guys like Chris Archer that basically need the entire day to get their body to pitch and on the other hand you have Terry Mullholland that would take 5 pitches to warm up and could throw 75 pitches every day with no ill effects.  There are many arguments being made that today's pitchers are over-conditioned, putting more stress on their bodies.

    2) You are forgetting that today's batters are also different.  More informed, better prepared.  Knowledge and strategy play a much bigger part in today's game.  Throwing more pitches in a game is predicated on those being SUCCESSFUL pitches.

    3) Not knowing which coach you are speaking with, but it sounds a little like sour grapes.  Times constantly change.  If he truly believes that people who have never played the game can't adequately diagnose and strategize players and situations, then he shouldn't be coaching.  Use every tool at your disposal to gain the advantage.  This includes computers and personal experience.  

    4) Even the worst reliever has an ERA around 5.00.  You are saying you would take Sonny Gray's 10.00 ERA over that?  I thought you wanted to win...

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    44 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

    So many things I disagree with here:

    1) You are assuming that a pitcher conditioned in today's era can last better than a pitcher conditioned 20 years ago.  There is no data to support that.  Pitching is inherently violent on the pitcher's body.  Many things factor in to their ability pitch longer, including genetics.  On one end. you have guys like Chris Archer that basically need the entire day to get their body to pitch and on the other hand you have Terry Mullholland that would take 5 pitches to warm up and could throw 75 pitches every day with no ill effects.  There are many arguments being made that today's pitchers are over-conditioned, putting more stress on their bodies.

    2) You are forgetting that today's batters are also different.  More informed, better prepared.  Knowledge and strategy play a much bigger part in today's game.  Throwing more pitches in a game is predicated on those being SUCCESSFUL pitches.

    3) Not knowing which coach you are speaking with, but it sounds a little like sour grapes.  Times constantly change.  If he truly believes that people who have never played the game can't adequately diagnose and strategize players and situations, then he shouldn't be coaching.  Use every tool at your disposal to gain the advantage.  This includes computers and personal experience.  

    4) Even the worst reliever has an ERA around 5.00.  You are saying you would take Sonny Gray's 10.00 ERA over that?  I thought you wanted to win...

    1) The assumption is generalized over all sports and for that matter, all aspects of life. Better conditioned people in general perform better than those that aren't.

    2) I didn't forget anything. Do pitchers not have the same opportunity to analyze hitters tendencies? Knowledge and strategy go both ways.

    3) No sour grapes at all. He, like many other baseball fans and longtime baseball people, don't like the way the game has changed. Times change but that doesn't always make it better. That's not to say tech shouldn't be used, but it shouldn't be the only assessment.

    4) You're saying the 10 ERA is static. No chance at improvement? Gray has the skills to be able to lower that ERA. I guarantee that with a few more starts that extend beyond the 6th inning he'd be able to improve upon that. 

    5) Why was attendance down this year? While trying to attract the computer geeks and data heads the Twins have forgotten the fans that have followed them since the 60's and 70's. That and the high criminal element of MPLS.

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    25 minutes ago, Fezig said:

    1) The assumption is generalized over all sports and for that matter, all aspects of life. Better conditioned people in general perform better than those that aren't.

    2) I didn't forget anything. Do pitchers not have the same opportunity to analyze hitters tendencies? Knowledge and strategy go both ways.

    3) No sour grapes at all. He, like many other baseball fans and longtime baseball people, don't like the way the game has changed. Times change but that doesn't always make it better. That's not to say tech shouldn't be used, but it shouldn't be the only assessment.

    4) You're saying the 10 ERA is static. No chance at improvement? Gray has the skills to be able to lower that ERA. I guarantee that with a few more starts that extend beyond the 6th inning he'd be able to improve upon that. 

    5) Why was attendance down this year? While trying to attract the computer geeks and data heads the Twins have forgotten the fans that have followed them since the 60's and 70's. That and the high criminal element of MPLS.

    1) The assumption is that newer is better, which isn't always true.  Many pitchers have attributed injuries to excessive weightlifting, which has become a staple over the last few years.  Many areas have improved, but that does not mean they are better physically prepared to pitch.  I have yet to find any information that says that pitching is less injury prone now than it was 20 years ago.

    2) Both pitchers and batters have better access to information.  But a more generalized acceptance of the use of that information for batters (especially the self evaluation part), has excelled over the years.  Pitchers have spin rates, batters have exit velocities, exit angles.

    3) Change Bad!  I guarantee you if said coach had this information available to him at the time he would have used it.  Or he would have been the only coach not using all tools at his disposal to win.

    4)  Sure, he can improve.  Everybody can.  Doesn't mean you should chance it.  Twins are up 6-0 in the 6th?  Give him 15 more pitches.... If it is close, take him out.  Sonny Gray's success this year is 100% based on how he was used.  The Twins played to his strengths and pulled him out when they did because of his history.  He should be worshiping the ground they walk on because he will get paid after 2023.

    5) I keep seeing this argument.  It is totally wrong.  The Twins saw an average spike in attendance of about 6500 per home game this year over last. (FWIW, the Twins, and all of baseball really, need to attract the younger generation.  The fans from the 60's and 70's are dwindling and not being replaced by younger ones)

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    This is simply the wildest of wishful thinking and speculation.  The Twins should get Ohtani, Judge, Rondon, Verlander, Contreras and Correa all lined up for next year.

     

     

    ....and then I woke up.

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    3 hours ago, Fezig said:

    In speaking with a former Twins coach, the problem is the game is run by people who've never played and look at the game through a computer.

    Pretty inaccurate view you were given.  Derek Falvey pitched in college ball.  Thad Levine played college ball.  Rocco Baldelli skipped college ball but went on to finish third in the AL Rookie of the Year.  I don't know who else your coach friend has in mind that runs the team, or what axe he feels the need to grind.  I have my complaints about the FO but the stereotype of guys with thick glasses at the computer screen, incapable of understanding what athletes do from personal experience, is far off the mark.

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    2 hours ago, ashbury said:

    Pretty inaccurate view you were given.  Derek Falvey pitched in college ball.  Thad Levine played college ball.  Rocco Baldelli skipped college ball but went on to finish third in the AL Rookie of the Year.  I don't know who else your coach friend has in mind that runs the team, or what axe he feels the need to grind.  I have my complaints about the FO but the stereotype of guys with thick glasses at the computer screen, incapable of understanding what athletes do from personal experience, is far off the mark.

    Players and coaches go to different teams. Because he was a former Twins coach doesn't mean he's done in baseball and not working for a different team or still involved in baseball. I've also talked with someone with ties to an MLB scout. The scout says the same thing. 

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