Catching Curiosities

Call up Garner! What are the Twins waiting for?

I am having trouble with this comparison.  I enjoy it and I am a big catcher stat skeptic, but here are the weaknesses that need some explanation.  Both Santana a good pitcher and Hughes, a bad pitcher, have better BABIP when throwing to Giminez.  That is a telling stat, more than ERA where the bullpen can add to the numbers.  The opposite is true for the other pitchers. but why?  Who were the opponents?  When did Mejia pitch to Giminez - was it before or after his seemingly significant turn around?  I too, want Garver called up, but the real question is who is better between Giminez and Garver?

The problem with statistics is they can be bent to mean many things with different variables, as mikelink just pointed out.

I like Giminez as a teammate from all I've heard, he offers some versatility, and is not horrible at the plate either. Still, the numbers offered and Barber's ability offensively, and all the positives we've heard about his defense, I think its about time for his turn. I've said before, I wonder at some point if there will be a team needing catching help and Giminez might be moved. Agreed the team could do well with all 3 on the roster, with Garver sort of taking Vargas's spot. (Though I'm still not sure I'm willing to give up on Vargas just yet).

The data used takes a large sample to stabilize when it is a single pitcher. I don't see how to use ERA, slash stats and BABIP in splits with any value. Given their dependence on each other, are they saying anything different?

There might be data that is useful.

I wonder if first strike % is significantly different? How about 0-2 and 1-2 counts? What is called? What is the result? How might Castro sequence a pitcher differently than Gimenez?

What do the varying strike zone maps look like? Do they vary by catcher for the same pitcher?

Strike out rate and walk rate are among the first that stabilize. I don't know if in a split we will have enough data at full season. Once we control by a single pitcher the split sample gets pretty small. Those would be the only two that are easily available to us but it might take a few years of data. Any conclusion would be hindsight by that time.

I had not thought of Gimenez as a potential trade target, but I suppose it could go that way. One should not get too excited at what the return would be, however, as he would be a 2.5 month rental.

The numbers Garver has put up and maintained this year in AAA are very promising. Nonetheless, I suspect that we won't see him until September, if then. Gimenez is one of Falvine's 'guys' and we are seeing some evidence that those players are nearly bulletproof when it comes to a roster position (Belisle, Breslow, Haley).

  On 7/23/2017 at 1:56 PM, drock2190 said:

Call up Garner! What are the Twins waiting for?

  On 7/23/2017 at 3:49 PM, Danchat said:

You need to spell his name right or else they'll call up some scrub named Garner but not Garver!

Well if they call up Jennifer Garner then team morale might pick up a little bit?

But...can Garver pitch in a mop up roll????? Maybe he should start throwing BP just in case...until then stick with Gimenez

  On 7/23/2017 at 3:49 PM, Danchat said:

You need to spell his name right or else they'll call up some scrub named Garner but not Garver!

And next up for the Twins Jim Rockford

  On 7/23/2017 at 2:15 PM, mikelink45 said:

I am having trouble with this comparison.  I enjoy it and I am a big catcher stat skeptic, but here are the weaknesses that need some explanation.  Both Santana a good pitcher and Hughes, a bad pitcher, have better BABIP when throwing to Giminez.  That is a telling stat, more than ERA where the bullpen can add to the numbers.  The opposite is true for the other pitchers. but why?  Who were the opponents?  When did Mejia pitch to Giminez - was it before or after his seemingly significant turn around?  I too, want Garver called up, but the real question is who is better between Giminez and Garver?

I agree that relievers' performance has a big influence on a pitcher's ERA. (Witness Gibson's last two starts.) But it doesn't seem like this would matter so much for catcher's ERA because teams rarely change catchers in the middle of an inning when the reliever comes in. If the reliever gives up a bunch of inherited runs, that's on the same catcher's watch.

  On 7/23/2017 at 3:49 PM, Danchat said:

You need to spell his name right or else they'll call up some scrub named Garner but not Garver!

That will teach me for waking up and reading that article

It's too hard to analyze catching numbers and be satisfied, because it's so reliant on uncontrollable forces. A catcher could catch one pitching staff and look statistically great, then another and look terrible.

Framing numbers especially. Pitchers/umpires are not created equal, and could potentially cause large swings in how those numbers look. You're not always comparing an apple to an apple, no matter how you try to level the field.

The only reason I wouldn't drop Gimenez is for injury depth. Him being "able" to pitch isn't worth anything other than laughs. Let Garver come up and start the learning curve. Plenty of at bats to go around.

  On 7/23/2017 at 3:49 PM, Danchat said:

You need to spell his name right or else they'll call up some scrub named Garner but not Garver!

Madison  Bum Garner?

Belisle would  have a lot lower ERA id he had not pitched to Gimmenez 2.54

I wonder how the Twins assess Garver's defense. Is he close to Murphy?

If a major league catcher were to go down, I think they would call up the better defensive catcher. There is clear separation at the bat. I do wonder if the Twins see significant separation with the glove in Murphy's favor and whether he might be the next catcher in line.

That call up will be very telling for how the organization sees Garver's future role.

Turner is finally back on the Reds active roster after suspect long DL for mysterious hammey...... has been in 20 games with 43 PAs. The Reds are carrying 3 catchers again. I guess they really want him and his .179 average and .489 OPS. I remember when catchers were expected to hit, and did...... and it wasn't that long ago. Now... shortstops don't need to hit, catchers don't need to hit, center fielders don't need to hit.... it really is ridiculous. 

I remember the pundits here and elsewhere, in their prospect lists.... dissing Garver in favor of Turner the whole way up the ladder. I always contended they were wrong. I still do. You don't get judged the collegiate Johnny Bench award runner up (to Turner) if you can't catch in college, too.

I would love to see Garver called up asap.

  On 7/23/2017 at 11:04 PM, Mr. Brooks said:

If Garver's defense is so bad that he can't even get called up over Murphy- who isn't even hitting AAA pitching ( nearly .300 points of OPS worse than Garver), then Garver just simply isn't a catcher.

As I said, I wonder what the Twins think about Garver's defense. His bat isn't keeping him in AAA.

  On 7/23/2017 at 2:32 PM, DocBauer said:

The problem with statistics is they can be bent to mean many things with different variables, as mikelink just pointed out. I like Giminez as a teammate from all I've heard, he offers some versatility, and is not horrible at the plate either. Still, the numbers offered and Barber's ability offensively, and all the positives we've heard about his defense, I think its about time for his turn. I've said before, I wonder at some point if there will be a team needing catching help and Giminez might be moved. Agreed the team could do well with all 3 on the roster, with Garver sort of taking Vargas's spot. (Though I'm still not sure I'm willing to give up on Vargas just yet).

I am.  His best spot is DH.  As a first-baseman, he's a statue.  And let's be frank about Vargas:  after an initial splash, he's not much of an advantage on the field or at the plate in an average of 52 games and 192 AB's over the past 4 years.  I think it's time to move on from Vargas.  Mitch Garver can easily take his place.