Assessing the Donaldson and Kiner-Falefa Trade With the Yankees

There has been some complaining on this website that the FO wasn’t doing enough. Well fasten your seat belts! The yankee trade was a big surprise but it only makes sense if the FO makes another move for a shortstop like Story with the money saved by trading Donaldson. Story at short instead of Donaldson at third is a win for the team. And they wanted to make room for Miranda and this helps. But Sanchez doesn’t make sense as a backup catcher and part time DH so I wonder if he’ll be moved too. 

8 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Where exactly can they spend all this flexibility? 

Trevor Story, baby...

So, what is next?  The boys in the tower clearly feel the pressure to do something, and they are definitely doing...........well, something.  Swapping catchers, third basemen, and pitchers, getting somewhat better in one area and less in another, and freeing up payroll in the process.  I am honestly not sure if this is part of a grand master plan, or flying by the seat of their collective pants just to keep the fan base interested.  And when the smartest guys in the room don't feel they need to share their infinite wisdom with their subjects, this is what we get to do; we get to try to read their minds.  A lot of good tries here so far, and I have a hunch a lot more are coming.  I definitely come here instead of the papers for info; they (especially the Pioneer Press) are pretty much press secretaries for Falvine, not informers.  

Personally, I think we are going to make one or two more trades ala the ones we have seen so far, not picking up too much payroll in the process, and counting on prospects to develop.  I just don't see dumping one huge free agent contract gone bad only to gamble on another hours/days later.  Doesn't seem to be their style.  I will be happy to stand corrected, though, if we get someone for the long haul.  In the meantime, keep a good thought.....??

Out of left field here.  But do we have any chance of lining up with Oakland for Chapman and one of the remaining pitchers??  Miranda +?  Or just to high a cost in the additional prospects?  Just crazy thought.  All of this is kinda out of left field up to this point anyway.

6 hours ago, h2oface said:

"His 96 OPS+ basically was league average, however, and he’s just 30-years-old. He’s not the defensive stalwart Donaldson is at the hot corner, but he’s hardly a butcher either."

Just 30. Inference that Ushela is youngish, but many were considering Garver over the hill at just turned 31. Hmmmmm.

Catcher is a lot tougher on the body than 3rd.. 

Folks. Open your eyes! This is a salary dump. (Again)! Now we have a starting catcher who can't hit a curve ball and who teams run on at will! Lost one of the few players with any fire in Donaldson. Got an average past his prime Pitcher. And will have two average, but cheap players on the left side. Still nobody that knows how to play left field. Look for a 90 loss season.

17 minutes ago, se7799 said:

Out of left field here.  But do we have any chance of lining up with Oakland for Chapman and one of the remaining pitchers??  Miranda +?  Or just to high a cost in the additional prospects?  Just crazy thought.  All of this is kinda out of left field up to this point anyway.

Not sure if Twins want Chapman, but Oakland has 2-3 pitchers still available that the Twins should be interested in for sure. 

Don't go to sleep on Urshela.  I watch a lot of Yankees baseball and he is a gamer at 3B and a surprisingly tough out.

Sanchez on the other hand, is a passed ball machine.  No way do they keep him for long.  Miami seems about right for that guy.  He is all or nothing.

Went to bed not liking this trade. Woke up hating it.

We paid the Yankees a gold-glove SS, an elite slugging 3B and a defense-strong C prospect ... for a C that the Yankees were about to waive, a utility infielder (one of our few areas of org. strength) and $50M of salary relief that we didn't even need.

This trade makes the team significantly worse in 2022, and has almost no upside for 2023 and beyond. Unbelievable.

We won't need to worry about the Yankees beating us in the postseason - they're already beating us in the offseason. Terrible move, and it's terrible whether the FO's moves are done or not. With the NL moving to DH, the FO could have likely moved Donaldson's partial or whole salary for a pitching prospect lottery ticket.

Hate this trade. With a passion.

OK, having slept on this, I feel like there has to be some kind of gameplan here. Falvey has made some decisions that didn't go well, but he's not the Joker. He's not a gibbering madman who wants to lose his job.

It's so weird, the moves made here seem to point at completely different strategies. The Garver/Kiner-Falefa trade was the sort of tepid, underwhelming move that we expect from the front office, which seemed to indicate that the Twins were content to tread water for the season. The Gray trade was a bold statement of contention (but also a killer bargain). This seems like a move to dump salary and rebuild.

Possibility 1: The Twins are clearing payroll to make a big signing, which is going to HAVE to be Story, since the FA pitching market has dried up. Unless... they're going to try to trade for a pitcher who's already on a fat contract??? What's going on with all the Garver and Kiner-Falefa stuff though? Did the Yankees refuse to take Donaldson's contract without an OK shortstop thrown in? Did the Twins make a "safe" move to cover shortstop, and then swerve to drop Kiner-Falefa with Donaldson when talks with Story started to look promising? If indeed this is the case, then WOW, it had better work out! Falvey hasn't struck me as a big risk-taker, so I've got to believe he wouldn't take this route unless it was almost a sure thing.

Possibility 2: The Twins are just trying to dump salary. They signed Sonny Gray because the deal was too good to pass up, and they don't want to LOOK like they're tanking. This STILL makes the Garver trade look utterly deranged. I really don't think this is the case? And if you're dumping salary for a rebuild, WHY WOULD YOU LET GO OF RORTVEDT AND CREATE A NEW HOLE AT CATCHER????

Possibility 3: The Twins were trying to contend up through the Gray trade but SOMETHING they had in the plans went catastrophically wrong and they decided immediately in the course of 24 hours to pivot to dumping salary and making room for a rebuild. Perhaps negotiations broke down on another SP trade? This still doesn't account for dropping Rortvedt.

Yesterday, a friend was talking about a particular chess-playing computer, and said that great chess players find it hard to play against because it makes shocking moves a flesh-and-blood player would be too timid to make -- for example, sacrificing a queen and a bishop for nothing but a positional advantage. I really hope that's what we're seeing here, 

The more I think about it, how I feel about this trade will entirely depend on what we do with the next couple of moves. If this deal unlocks things to the point where we land Trevor Story (I'm not even going to pretend we're in on Correa)...then it's probably all worth it.

Straight up, I'm not a fan, really: Sanchez is a mess. He's a bad catcher who has become a poor man's Sano at the plate. We're not getting 2019 Sanchez (who was Mitch Garver-ish). Could he rebound now that he's out of NY, away from the spotlight, maybe gets his confidence back, works with some new coaches...maybe? And it wouldn't take much improvement for him to be a quality (if frustrating) option. But he could easily go the other way and keep spiraling and be unplayable at catcher. Urshela is more of a utility player to my mind: not sure how well he'll hold up at SS (which seems to be the reason the Yankees moved on from him) and not sure he'll hit well enough to be a regular at 3B.

Donaldson is still a really good player, an excellent hitter who still plays good defense at 3B (even if you have to watch his time in the field carefully). If he can stay on the field for 130-140 games, he's worth the money. He was one of the Twins best offensive players last year (Behind Buxton & Garver when they were healthy, and Cruz while he was here) and likely would have been again. Rortvedt is a player I was high on; his defense is quality (and after years of the Gary Sanchez Experience, he's going to look amazing to Yankees fans), but he wasn't a strong offensive player in the minors and every criticism people had of his offense has so far proven true in the MLB. It's a small sample, but right now he's little more than a defensive replacement and a backup you don't want playing much because the offense is horrific. So losing him doesn't hurt that much, but Donaldson will be missed. Yankees got the best player in this deal, which always says some things.

But if shedding Donaldson's salary while still getting back useful MLB players also positions us to sign Trevor Story and Michael Pineda to finish the bulk of the off-season (I expect we'll add 1 more RHP for the bullpen too)...then in context this deal works. In a vacuum, it feels like the Yankees got the better end of it. 

If at the start of the off-season you said me: "Twins are going to trade Garver, Donaldson, Rortvedt, and Petty and get back Gray, Sanchez, Urshela, and a prospect and also sign Story, Pineda, Bundy, and a RH reliever" I probably would have thought, "That's not bad? I think I like this team, if the young guys contribute!" So this deal is all about the context. If we don't end up spending the money...then Falvey and Levine are going to get bashed a lot and they'll deserve it. (and if they do, then some people will need to make some apologies)

1 hour ago, roger said:

Unlike many, I really liked the deal that brought K-F here.  Loved his defense, speed and the fact he got on base, albeit with singles.  Loved the fact we finally had a shortstop who appeared to want to be with the Twins.

Loved the deal that brought Gray over, even if the cost was Petty.  In the big picture, the best use of #1 picks taken late in the first round may be to flip them after a year in the organization.  Works well especially if there is a boatload of top prospects at the same position who are near ready.

Absolutely hate the Yankee trade, which I consider to be a HUGE loss for the Twins.  We gave up that defensive shortstop and again have a big hole at the most important infield position.  Have never liked Sanchez, who seems to be injured more than Donaldson (I don't know if that is true, just seems like it to me).  And our catching depth and defense took a huge hit when Rortvedt was included, who I believe will become the Yankee's regular catcher for the next decade.  

Yes, there is now a ton of money available.  Will they use it to sign a shortstop...there are two available?  And what will they do for catching depth, both this year and beyond?  We all think they need at least one more starting pitcher.  Well after late last night they also need a shortstop and catcher.  Was really happy when I went to bed.  Flat out threw up when reading the Strib over breakfast.

I pray that they aren't done and there will be at least three more deals (sign a shortstop, sign/trade for a young catcher, and sign/trade for another starting pitcher) today and tomorrow, please!

sorry, but, Rortvedt will never be a #1 catcher in the bigs.. i say good riddance. Adding Story , Peneida + lefty starter would help..Gray, Ryan, Ober, Bundy?? + ? ... we have the hitting..but obviously pitching is still not up to beating the big boys

The Yankees are clearly improved from this deal. The Twins? Definitely worse off.

1 hour ago, AceWrigley said:

My crazy hunch here is we're lining up pieces for a trade with the Marlins for one of their starters. I have a hard time picturing Sanchez and Urshela in a Twins uniform, especially Sanchez.

I also can't see either of those two in a Marlins uniform.

19 minutes ago, Unwinder said:

Yesterday, a friend was talking about a particular chess-playing computer, and said that great chess players find it hard to play against because it makes shocking moves a flesh-and-blood player would be too timid to make

I like this analogy. But I fear the moves of this FO are better described be the phrase "too cute by half."

8 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

I like this analogy. But I fear the moves of this FO are better described be the phrase "too cute by half."

Yeah, I'm not going to pretend this isn't a more likely explanation.

51 minutes ago, dex8425 said:

Not sure if Twins want Chapman, but Oakland has 2-3 pitchers still available that the Twins should be interested in for sure. 

An infield of Chapman, Ursula, Polanco, AK would be nice, very affordable and make up for the couple bats we lost.

53 minutes ago, MinnInPa said:

sorry, but, Rortvedt will never be a #1 catcher in the bigs.. i say good riddance. Adding Story , Peneida + lefty starter would help..Gray, Ryan, Ober, Bundy?? + ? ... we have the hitting..but obviously pitching is still not up to beating the big boys

Never is awfully definite.  I believe in him, thus I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

34 minutes ago, se7799 said:

An infield of Chapman, Ursula, Polanco, AK would be nice, very affordable and make up for the couple bats we lost.

None of those guys are a decent major league shortstop though. Bigger hole at SS than 3b currently. 

I like the deal though it would have been nice if the Yanks had thrown in a Luis Gil or similar. Sanchez though is NOT a major league catcher. He's more of a DH though somewhat similar to Sano in stats. Urshela never hit in the minors but has done well in the majors. He can play short and do it well so maybe Miranda can be given a full shot at third. But the real value of this trade will depend on what the Twins do with the extra money they now have. Should it go to Buxton? To get pitching? Or ???

A couple of simple observations, but in consideration that further moves may obliterate the views.

The Twins stated that trading Garver would strengthen their infield dramatically and Rortvedt as a 2nd catcher is vastly superior defensively. Whoops, that got blown up.

The Twins have stated that they will absolutely be competitive in 2022. So far this is difficult to see.

The Twins may be signing a free agent today but they just traded the only expensive free agent they have ever signed. It seems like agents and players might be aware of the Twins past and present policies. 

Looking at the roster today compared to last year: weaker at SP, questions galore with RP, weaker behind the plate, Sano is poor at 1B, Polanco = awesome, weaker at 3B, weaker at SS (seems impossible), LF is unknown but Kirilloff is better at 1B and all current options are plodders defensively, Buxton = awesome (crossed fingers), Kepler - hopeful of bat revival but great defensively, and weaker at DH.

A March 14, 11:15 am review puts the team in rough shape. There are certainly major moves to be made still, but along with the biggest initial issue, starting pitching, there are huge concerns with this team's defensive skills.

Falvey must have at least three or four moves planned. So we wait to read and hear what is next.

This trade stinks to high heaven. Lost our premier 3B, SS and near future catcher for what? 2 losers????????????????. free up some $ to get Story, not worth it! not even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So far we have traded away 4 premier positional under-valued players (Garver, Donaldson, IKF and future Rortvedt) that should not have been touched, ending up with 2 losers and 2 - 40 man roster fillers.

While the most expendable back up players, with the larger value (Arraez and Jeffers) and over abundant bat/ no glove types (too many to list) that should have been used to obtain high end SP via trade were not touched.

Many like to blame last year poor showing on injuries. CWS had more even from the beginning. The problem w/ injuries is that when you lack adequate quality depth at key positions you nose dive. For many years at CF we had Buxton after that nobody. Cave is absolutely NOT a CF and Kepler (though much better) when subs takes a hit both offensively and defensively and we suffer at RF. So when Buxton is out we suffer tremendeously which factor in lost games. Quality at LF suffered last year. Long relief has not been addressed for many years which SP & high leverage RP has been over burdened.When Polanco was thrown at SS, we suffered because he is not a SS, we did not win because Polanco was at SS it was inspite of it.

Now through these trades we have greatly depleted our once strong & valuable catching depth. For what? Don't they take these things into consideration? What is their standard for evaluation? These positions are important and not that easy to viably fill. I don't know how they possible fix this mess they have created.

Any trade with the Yankee's makes me nervous.  

Even if you sign Story, the Yankees trade is torturously bad. You have gotten worse at both positions and all you have done is save money. I guess the best thing you can resolve is to wait under the dust settles and view the remodeling effort in its totality.  

6 hours ago, MinnInPa said:

sorry, but, Rortvedt will never be a #1 catcher in the bigs.. i say good riddance. Adding Story , Peneida + lefty starter would help..Gray, Ryan, Ober, Bundy?? + ? ... we have the hitting..but obviously pitching is still not up to beating the big boys

Rortvedt is our best defensive catcher with a much better arm than Jeffers. LH hitting catchers are a premium, when given time to hone his batting skills, I can see him a better hitter than Jeffers.

 Many were down on Rortvedt because his hitting was subpar in his early intro to the Bigs. Daulton Varsho another LH hitting catcher (also from Wisc.) had simular stats his 1st call up. But had much better stats his next year, now he is a highly rated catcher.

Trading Rortvedt IMO was our greatest loss, in what he can bring in the near future. I would not do this trade or TX trade. I'd figure some thing else out and trade Arraez and Jeffers for front line pitching.