Game Score: Red Sox 11, Twins 9

Don't we have some other minor league pitchers we can give a trial? Jax is a nice story, but not a nice starter.  Time to try something else.  Isn't the rest of this lost season a time to get some trials done?  Balazovic and any other potential started should be called up.  Gant and Jax are not going to give us what we need next year. 

I don't understand why Kepler and Rooker are batting 1st & 2nd while Arraez and Garver are batting 5th & 6th, I also don't understand why Sano is batting 8th. Cave should be released immediately when Buxton comes back.

Personally, I think Jax has earned the long look at starter. This isn't a season where the Twins are going to compete, and I'd be a little surprised if Jax got a starting rotation spot out of the gate next year, but there's no need to pull the plug on him until the Twins are sure of his potential.

42 minutes ago, Seth Stohs said:

But what???

I think we all agree he's likely not a top ace-like starter, but he's been pretty solid in his debut... He's exactly the type of pitcher who should continue to make starts. 

 

I agree completely with the sentiment; however, do we have to let the guy get bludgeoned before he is removed? The in-game management has been flummoxing to say the least.

The line-up card is also a mystery to me. We have two of the worst OBP players on the team hitting one and two. Of course they are going to go 1-9 in a game where Boston pitchers are not exactly unhittable.

And, concerning Maeken, thank you for asking the question of "Why has Maeda been pitching if he has been injured?" It's a very good question. Even in the previous game when Glavine in the booth mentions that Maeda is acting like his arm is bothering him, it seems very strange to me that no one would come running out from the dugout to ask him why he was shaking his arm.

These season has been a very weird one to say the least...and frustrating too.

If you wish to let your young starters take a pounding, then let's make it a total group effort and bring ALL the young guys up. Get it done and over.

2 hours ago, Rosterman said:

If you wish to let your young starters take a pounding, then let's make it a total group effort and bring ALL the young guys up. Get it done and over.

I guess the limit is 9 runs - no double digit poundings. Barnes (7 runs in 5 and 109 pitches) and Jax (9 runs in 4.1 and 92). 

Robles would have walked both Gordon and Cave if they could have had better plate discipline. Watching Robles inherit runners on second and third with no outs in the 9th, and the boys not able to bring them in.... that hurt. Espeically after seeing Robles give it up to sooo many teams for us. 

Gotta hand it to Theilbar, blowing the game immediately after the team scratches, claws, and wills itself all the way back into the ballgame in the 8th inning. *muah! - that's a vintage glass of '21 Twins Bullpen.

As for Jax and Barnes: can we stop with pretending these guys are going to be anything except organizational depth already?  These aren't top prospects, and unlike Hollywood, this isn't the point in the movie where they start to dig deep, find the fire in their souls, and throw no-hitters. They're just doing what any reasonable person expects of them: getting hit around pretty hard most of the time, with the occasional palatable outing.

Unfortunately every single one of this team's top prospects are injured, so if you're watching the Twins the rest of the year, this is what you're going to be getting from their pitching staff. A steady diet of low-ceiling rookies mixed in with some 35 year-old waiver pickups.

We all deserve better as fans of this club.

6 hours ago, Aerodeliria said:

And, concerning Maeken, thank you for asking the question of "Why has Maeda been pitching if he has been injured?" It's a very good question. Even in the previous game when Glavine in the booth mentions that Maeda is acting like his arm is bothering him, it seems very strange to me that no one would come running out from the dugout to ask him why he was shaking his arm.

Here is why Maeda would continue to pitch.

• Innings Pitched Bonus
  $250,000 each for: 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 190, 200
• Games Started Bonus 
  $1M each for: 15, 20,
  $1.5M each for 25, 30, 32 

The last two games he pitched in got him 1.25 million dollars.  and if he could/can get 4 more starts that is another 2 million.

7 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

But what???

Well you mentioned 26.1 and 8 earned runs, He has pitched 48.2 innings and given up 34, so in the other 22.1 he has given up 26 earned runs, that is not so good.

But with that said I think he will learn more from this game, then those 3,4,5 inning games he had earlier this year.

If you look in the past, some really good pitchers were allowed to pitch in games like this early in their career to I can only assume actually learn how to pitch? Viola, Maddux, Johnson, Glavine and even Clemens had some real clunkers. Now please don't assume I think Jax has any chance to be as good as these guys, I am just saying let pitchers, pitch.

8 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

But what???

I think we all agree he's likely not a top ace-like starter, but he's been pretty solid in his debut... He's exactly the type of pitcher who should continue to make starts. 

 

I understand your point, but for the year he has a -0.7 WAR, he has a 6.29 era and a 1.36 whip.  The opponents have an 848 OPS against him - more than 100 points above league average.  He had a nice run, but overall I am not convinced.  If he continues that five game stretch again you have a point. 

Fact is Baldelli is a poor excuse for a Major League manager.  His lineups continue to be ridiculous.  In game management is a joke.  He embarrassed his pitchers by leaving them in way too long when they are getting hammered.  Jax didn't have it.  It was obvious he shouldn't have been left out there.  Remember he left Shoemaker and Happ out there on their last appearances as Twins and they got hammered through 3 innings.  Dordnt he owe it to the rest of the team that he is at least trying to be competitive?  Why would any FA pitcher want to come here?

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Well you mentioned 26.1 and 8 earned runs, He has pitched 48.2 innings and given up 34, so in the other 22.1 he has given up 26 earned runs, that is not so good.

But with that said I think he will learn more from this game, then those 3,4,5 inning games he had earlier this year.

If you look in the past, some really good pitchers were allowed to pitch in games like this early in their career to I can only assume actually learn how to pitch? Viola, Maddux, Johnson, Glavine and even Clemens had some real clunkers. Now please don't assume I think Jax has any chance to be as good as these guys, I am just saying let pitchers, pitch.

I agree.  He had a nice stretch and even good pitchers have bad days.  The key is generally minimizing those bad days or the damage done.  The Red Sox are a good hitting team and Jax generally gives up contact so unless he develops an ability to K guys he is always going to need some BABIP luck to get it done.  No such luck in this game and it is also why he was always up and down in AAA as well.  This is where low strike out numbers hurt guys. Still no reason not to see what he can do in this lost season and he has had some good games.  With some polish who knows maybe he can be a solid 5th starter might as well find out.

Two updsides:

1. Kepler and Sano appear to be grasping how to hit oppo
2. We are deep in the Scarlet Stockings bullpen for the remaining two games of the series

1 hour ago, Dman said:

I agree.  He had a nice stretch and even good pitchers have bad days.  The key is generally minimizing those bad days or the damage done.  The Red Sox are a good hitting team and Jax generally gives up contact so unless he develops an ability to K guys he is always going to need some BABIP luck to get it done.  No such luck in this game and it is also why he was always up and down in AAA as well.  This is where low strike out numbers hurt guys. Still no reason not to see what he can do in this lost season and he has had some good games.  With some polish who knows maybe he can be a solid 5th starter might as well find out.

Jax did not have his best night but he wasn't helped by the horrible umpiring behind the plate.  The Twins' hitters had multiple pitches outside the strike zone called strikes but Jax had many pitches in the zone called balls.  A very uneven performance behind home plate.

I've watched the Twins play at Fenway. My experience was pretty positive. The stadium was okay, but the fans were pretty good. Treated them with a little respect and they were very cool with us.

3 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

I understand your point, but for the year he has a -0.7 WAR, he has a 6.29 era and a 1.36 whip.  The opponents have an 848 OPS against him - more than 100 points above league average.  He had a nice run, but overall I am not convinced.  If he continues that five game stretch again you have a point. 

So, after Jax pitches well for 5 straight starts, you should pull him because his stats for the year are bad, but if he keeps pitching well then maybe he should get more chances? 

Look, Griffin Jax is probably a 5th starter at best who has pretty fine margins of error for success in MLB. He doesn't have tons of velocity or particularly filthy stuff that can bail him out of a mistake. he lives and dies on his command and get strikes at the edges of the plate. When he misses, professional hitters will crush it, and we saw that last night. he also had the worst possible umpire for his type of pitching: one who was brutally inconsistent and made a number of obviously bad calls. (When Dick Bremer is calling it out, you know things are ugly out there) For a guy like Jax, i think it can be tough to know when you should pull him on a night like this. How do you guess when the mistake is gonna happen? How much of the bad 5th is because jax had no idea what was going to be called a strike any longer?

cave's steal attempt looked pretty bad, but the Boston catcher has not been good at throwing guys out this year. If he goes on an off-speed pitch he's in there, but I'm still not entirely sure why he's running in that situation.

4 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Here is why Maeda would continue to pitch.

• Innings Pitched Bonus
  $250,000 each for: 90, 100, 110, 120, 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 190, 200
• Games Started Bonus 
  $1M each for: 15, 20,
  $1.5M each for 25, 30, 32 

The last two games he pitched in got him 1.25 million dollars.  and if he could/can get 4 more starts that is another 2 million.

It's a relevant observation, but I wonder who decides that he is good to go? 

8 minutes ago, Aerodeliria said:

It's a relevant observation, but I wonder who decides that he is good to go? 

My thoughts are if he says he good to pitch, then they let him until it is obvious that he is injured, because otherwise they look like they are holding him back for financial reasons, and he is getting close to some real money (millions of dollars real)  Just my opinion.

2 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

Jax did not have his best night but he wasn't helped by the horrible umpiring behind the plate.  The Twins' hitters had multiple pitches outside the strike zone called strikes but Jax had many pitches in the zone called balls.  A very uneven performance behind home plate.

I was going to login to the game thread last night for the sole purpose of saying that umpire sucked!  Jax made a couple of perfect pitches and the ump screwed him.  Then, he called a couple on our guys that were 4 inches outside the zone.

Rocco seems to love Rooker hitting 2nd. So far he hasn't done too well there. Kepler at lead-off? Another head-scratcher, but maybe he feels Arraez is more valuable lower in the lineup where he could bring in some runners?

I agree that last night was vintage 2021 Twins in microcosm. They score 9 runs and lose. One of their hottest relief pitchers comes in to hold the fort and immediately puts the team back in a 3 run hole. Then an ex-Twin, who was simply brutal this yeat comes in with men on 1st and 2nd, no outs and shuts us down for his 1st Red Sox save.

Buxton needs to get back here on the double IMO. And when he returns, Twins have to totally roll that dice and play this guy regularly...until he re-injures himself again, or demonstrates that he can be a valuable asset to the Twins chances in 2022. He either needs a new contract or a trade and babying him the rest of the way would make no sense to see what he is capable of doing.

4 hours ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

Wasn't that a racy crime drama on USA Network in the 1990s?

That was Silk Stalkings. . I think the protagonists called each other Sam after Sam Snead. Sorry that I can't make a baseball connection