Where is Joe Mauer’s Benefit of Perception?

[Ted Schwerzler]

This season Joe Mauer will enter the Minnesota Twins Hall of Fame. Following his retirement, his number “7” was immediately retired and hung alongside the greats at Target Field. When it comes to year one of Cooperstown though, perception isn’t something that seems to benefit Mauer. Why that is remains a mystery.

 

Image courtesy of David Berding-USA TODAY Sports

When looking at his case for the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame, it is often contended that he will get in, but the sanctity of being a first ballot entrant seems unfathomable. To wrap one’s mind around that notion must start somewhere following his post catching days.

For Twins fans, there has always been a denigration of Joe Mauer’s resume largely due to two things. The first is a contract he signed coming off the most productive years we have ever seen from a catcher. Mauer got paid for what he had accomplished, and in a sport that stifles earnings for years before free agency, that shouldn’t be a concept difficult to grasp. Even with the $184 million extension, Mauer would’ve been substantially more handsomely paid elsewhere on the open market. His deal didn’t stop the Twins from adding, they chose not to on their own.

Beyond that, there is the discussion of his time as a first baseman. Nevermind that Mauer transformed himself into a Gold Glove caliber talent (yes, we are still mad, Eric Hosmer), but he did so following multiple brain injuries. The Twins catcher didn’t step out from behind the plate because he wanted to, but instead because he had to. If Mauer had walked away following the concussion in 2013, he likely would’ve waltzed into the Hall of Fame similar to Kirby Puckett.

So, when it comes to enshrinement in The Hall, why is Mauer’s case so hotly contested?

Take for example St. Louis Cardinals great Yadier Molina. He has roughly the same career fWAR as Mauer, but was a below average hitter (96 OPS+). His personal accolades are all defensive, and he earns extra credit for team World Series rings he won. There is no denying how great his defensive acumen was, but it truly was a career of a one-dimensional leader.

Someone like Buster Posey or Brian McCann had a career more similar to that of Mauer, and neither of them ever get mentioned in the same breath as Molina. Posey should be a certain Hall of Famer, and he’ll first become eligible in 2026 having retired in 2021. Posey won an MVP award and also captured a batting title. He wasn’t the defender that Molina was, and maybe not even that of Mauer, but his career 129 OPS+ shows just how much he contributed offensively.

It would be much more controversial to suggest McCann is a Hall of Fame caliber talent, and yet he is right in the same realm as these other three. McCann does have a World Series and multiple Silver Slugger’s to his credit, but the only MVP award he ever won was for the All-Star game, and his offensive abilities were substantially less than both that of Mauer and Posey.

Some of the discussion surrounding Mauer’s candidacy goes back to the premise of “when” and not “if” he’ll get in. It should not be viewed as some amazing feat to be inducted on the first ballot. There are no additional awards for getting in, rather that you get a bronze plaque for doing so.

Nationally it seems as though Mauer is viewed more favorably. Hall of Fame guru and Fangraphs writer Jay Jaffe has long contended that Mauer be inducted, and he recently did a great back and forth with The Athletic’s Dan Hayes on that very topic. Maybe we’ll be surprised next winter and the votes will come in droves for Mauer. It would be disappointing to see it take as long as Molina’s debut to get him in, but then again, perception is often reality for most.

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[miracleb]

"Mauer got paid for what he had accomplished, and in a sport that stifles earnings for years before free agency, that shouldn’t be a concept difficult to grasp."

***************************************************************************

HUH?  No...Mauer got paid because it was anticipated he would have similar seasons to "one of the most productive seasons a catcher has ever had."  The fact that he never did.....was a bummer!  Of course, he still had rock solid seasons......just not what we were all hoping.  Nothing wrong with saying this!

[theBOMisthebomb]

34 minutes ago, miracleb said:

"Mauer got paid for what he had accomplished, and in a sport that stifles earnings for years before free agency, that shouldn’t be a concept difficult to grasp."

***************************************************************************

HUH?  No...Mauer got paid because it was anticipated he would have similar seasons to "one of the most productive seasons a catcher has ever had."  The fact that he never did.....was a bummer!  Of course, he still had rock solid seasons......just not what we were all hoping.  Nothing wrong with saying this!

It's common knowledge that baseball players are underpaid at the start of their MLB careers, at least the successful players. Then, when they hit free agency they can finally cash in on what they have accomplished. There are advantages and disadvantages to the system for the players. There's no guarantee to the club that the player will perform as well or better than previous performance. 

[Beast]

Yeah it’s nuts that people not only under-appreciate Mauer, but almost openly detest him.

He’s one of the best and most complete catchers the game has ever seen.  Period.  At his peak of winning batting titles, hitting doubles like a machine, and playing gold glove caliber defense - name more than one or two in history that was better at the position. 

The longevity wasn’t necessarily there at the position that some like Bench and Rodriguez have.  But, it’s not the hall of longevity.  That criteria is sometimes weighted too heavily, IMO.  Especially at the catcher position.

The contract talk is just absurd.  He gets knocked because he was paid for was they thought he would do and he didn’t do it?  What?  He also got paid peanuts while being the best catcher in the game for 5-6 years.  That somehow gets twisted into him fleecing the Twins in some way and being a detriment?  Get the hell out of here (figuratively).  That’s just ridiculous.

Not only that, but he’s a hometown kid. He played out his career here.  He lives and invests in the community.  And he was a key cog in the longest consecutive run of success this dumpster fire of an organization has ever seen.  If they select Mark Prior instead of Mauer, things look much worse for this franchise over the last 22 years.

Also, a total class act.  People worship at the idols of guys like Puckett who are complete scumbags.  There’s something to be said about performing off the field as well.

His one knock IMO is not winning enough in the postseason.  But, who knows what happens there if Phil Cuzzy didn’t openly rig a playoff game for the Yankees and call a double fair by 30 feet a foul ball.

 

[Eris]

I am disappointed that the contract keeps coming up. Reality is that Joe Mauer’s career was cut short by a career altering concussion. Of which he was still having symptoms the year he retired. Would there be the same level of discussion about the contract if his career would have been altered by a back injury suffered in, e.g., a home plate collision.
 

Twins and their fans were robbed of truly great careers from Mauer,   Justin Morneau, and to a lesser extent Corey Koskie—all because of career altering concussions. But because Mauer was in a different stage of his contract we somehow feel differently about his injury. 

[Eris]

The baseball hall of stats has Mauer well above Molina in terms of Hall of Fame worthiness.   According to the hall of stats website, Molina should not be inducted into the HoF.  This will serve as a useful test of the perception of Mauer vs that of Molina. 
 

http://www.hallofstats.com/position/c

[jmlease1]

Mauer is also hurt badly here because of the some of the local media in MN. People like Dan Barreiro openly detested him (in part because Mauer had no interest in being on his show, I'm sure) and bagged on him frequently. When you have prominent media guys bashing on the star all the time (favorite complaints were about the contract, his RBI totals, and dumbest of all: him taking "too many walks") it hurts the rep with the fans, especially when they're frustrated about the team not having success in the playoffs, losing players like Johan (and not getting the pieces needed to really reload), and the injuries.

But Mauer was awesome, and I have nothing but contempt for the haters. He was a terrific catcher and hit like few others. He should have won the Gold Glove at 1B in 2017, he deserved every one of his all-star appearances, deserved the MVP (another reason Mauer catches flak; bitter NYY fans who think  the Sainted Jeter got robbed), and was simply an amazing player. 3 batting titles as a catcher? Look at what passes for hitting at catcher these days, does anyone think we'll see that again? Mauer's a no-doubt HoFer to me.

Molina gets extra credit for the postseason, but you can't hold that against Mauer. It's not Mauer's fault that Cuzzi completely blew a call or that he played on teams with terrible rotations, or that Liriano's elbow exploded, or that management made staggeringly bad evaluations of guys like Nishioka or Park. I'd take Mauer as my catcher over Molina, who was an all-star caliber player for really only a few years and a good to very good player for most of his prime. Molina had 2 season with more than 5 bWAR. Mauer had 5, even with the injuries.

[Seth Stohs]

2 hours ago, miracleb said:

"Mauer got paid for what he had accomplished, and in a sport that stifles earnings for years before free agency, that shouldn’t be a concept difficult to grasp."

***************************************************************************

HUH?  No...Mauer got paid because it was anticipated he would have similar seasons to "one of the most productive seasons a catcher has ever had."  The fact that he never did.....was a bummer!  Of course, he still had rock solid seasons......just not what we were all hoping.  Nothing wrong with saying this!

There is something too this though... back then, a lot of times players in free agency were paid for what they had done in the past. Now? With the rise of analytics and the knowledge that most players don't get better after the age of 30, front offices are now paying players based on what they think they will be able to do in the future, years and dollars. 

I mean, both matter. What a player has done in the past gives some indication on future success. 

[heresthething]

3 hours ago, Eris said:

I am disappointed that the contract keeps coming up. Reality is that Joe Mauer’s career was cut short by a career altering concussion. Of which he was still having symptoms the year he retired. Would there be the same level of discussion about the contract if his career would have been altered by a back injury suffered in, e.g., a home plate collision.
 

Twins and their fans were robbed of truly great careers from Mauer,   Justin Morneau, and to a lesser extent Corey Koskie—all because of career altering concussions. But because Mauer was in a different stage of his contract we somehow feel differently about his injury. 

ugh, just reading that again with three stars on our team all with concussion issues.  What might have been...

[Twinkies are for eating]

The hall of fame used to mean something. At a minimum you had to get to 3,000 hits. I guess those days are long gone. But Mauer never got close. In fact he barely broke 2,000. He never drove in runs. As good a hitter as he was supposed to be, you would think at least his RBI’s would have been more impressive. I mean he hit in the top 3 spots in the order pretty much his whole career. For those of us that think he was overpaid we got fed up with the god like worshipping for all the years after his “bilateral leg weakness”. It was way over the top. Way worse than Madden slobbering over Favre. Great player pre injury, very average post. I don’t think he belongs in the Hall and it’s really not very close.

[puckstopper1]

As a catcher he was phenomenal and would / should be strongly considered for the Hall if he had stayed there.

But he did not.  He also did not play long enough, and he played for a small market team AND did not have any post season success.

Sorry - but his is not a Hall of Fame candidate IMO.

[Cris E]

 

10 minutes ago, Twinkies are for eating said:

The hall of fame used to mean something. At a minimum you had to get to 3,000 hits. I guess those days are long gone. But Mauer never got close. In fact he barely broke 2,000. He never drove in runs. As good a hitter as he was supposed to be, you would think at least his RBI’s would have been more impressive. I mean he hit in the top 3 spots in the order pretty much his whole career. For those of us that think he was overpaid we got fed up with the god like worshipping for all the years after his “bilateral leg weakness”. It was way over the top. Way worse than Madden slobbering over Favre. Great player pre injury, very average post. I don’t think he belongs in the Hall and it’s really not very close.

Dear God. You do realize how hard it is to catch and do anything else? The last catcher before Mauer to win an AL batting title was 1933, largely because catchers get beat up badly and there's also the DH position to content with for top hitter. He won three. You think that's some sort of coincidence?  When healthy he was an MVP or close to it, finishing in the top ten in MVP voting four times as a catcher. What the guy was getting paid should not affect your judgement of how well he performed. But he earned his money in the first three years, so you're complaining about the five years when he was fighting concussions. Would you have felt better about his back going to pieces and him sitting on the bench? The fact that he was an above average 1B at the MLB level while he was dealing with this mostly tells me you don't know anyone who has suffered a serious concussion.

But here's the deal, he caught most of ten years, 921 games, as one of the top in the game with a solid peak and some fancy awards. If you don't think that's worthy of the hall then you're probably unhappy with most of the catchers that are in there now and will never be happy with any catcher ever entering again. Then again I'm sure you'll never be impressed any any pitcher ever making it either, since the game has changed in many ways. Sorry for your loss.

 

[Mike Sixel]

Why do we care that some fans don't understand his greatness? Why? How does that effect us at all? Why let it bother you?

[rwilfong86]

7 hours ago, Beast said:

Yeah it’s nuts that people not only under-appreciate Mauer, but almost openly detest him.

He’s one of the best and most complete catchers the game has ever seen.  Period.  At his peak of winning batting titles, hitting doubles like a machine, and playing gold glove caliber defense - name more than one or two in history that was better at the position. 

The longevity wasn’t necessarily there at the position that some like Bench and Rodriguez have.  But, it’s not the hall of longevity.  That criteria is sometimes weighted too heavily, IMO.  Especially at the catcher position.

The contract talk is just absurd.  He gets knocked because he was paid for was they thought he would do and he didn’t do it?  What?  He also got paid peanuts while being the best catcher in the game for 5-6 years.  That somehow gets twisted into him fleecing the Twins in some way and being a detriment?  Get the hell out of here (figuratively).  That’s just ridiculous.

Not only that, but he’s a hometown kid. He played out his career here.  He lives and invests in the community.  And he was a key cog in the longest consecutive run of success this dumpster fire of an organization has ever seen.  If they select Mark Prior instead of Mauer, things look much worse for this franchise over the last 22 years.

Also, a total class act.  People worship at the idols of guys like Puckett who are complete scumbags.  There’s something to be said about performing off the field as well.

His one knock IMO is not winning enough in the postseason.  But, who knows what happens there if Phil Cuzzy didn’t openly rig a playoff game for the Yankees and call a double fair by 30 feet a foul ball.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. It wasn't his fault he had numerous concussions that forced his move to first base where he didn't produce at the same level. The guy is a role model on doing things the right way and the Twins were privileged that he played his entire career in Minnesota. I would much rather see a guy like Mauer in Cooperstown than guys who were as you put it, complete scumbags.

[wsnydes]

Rings matter in Hall conversation, perhaps more than they should in a sport where one player has about as minimal impact as they do in baseball.  That has to be looked at differently with catchers though.  Their impact on the game is greater than any other single player.  I think that has value.  Quite a bit even.  That's where Molina and Posey get a lot of boost, and I think rightfully so.  However, the statistical body of work must be recognized as well.  It's hard to argue with what Joe was able to accomplish as a catcher statically.  He just didn't have the pieces around him to win titles as Molina and Posey did.

[blindeke]

Nothing but contempt for anyone who ever boo'd Mauer. Truly embarrassing. Local reactionary media should get a lot of blame.

[tony&rodney]

6 hours ago, Twinkies are for eating said:

The hall of fame used to mean something. At a minimum you had to get to 3,000 hits. I guess those days are long gone. But Mauer never got close. In fact he barely broke 2,000. He never drove in runs. As good a hitter as he was supposed to be, you would think at least his RBI’s would have been more impressive. I mean he hit in the top 3 spots in the order pretty much his whole career. For those of us that think he was overpaid we got fed up with the god like worshipping for all the years after his “bilateral leg weakness”. It was way over the top. Way worse than Madden slobbering over Favre. Great player pre injury, very average post. I don’t think he belongs in the Hall and it’s really not very close.

Welcome to Twins Daily.

Can you give us the name of all of the Hall of Fame catchers with 3,000 hits.

RBI's are a function of runners in scoring position in front of you. Joe Mauer was the best batter with RISP the Twins had.

Mauer was actually underpaid.

For some reason Mauer has received more criticism from Twins fans. Baseball fans across the country have never understood this phenomena. I have been asked about this many times.

The writer who is larger considered the closest thing to an expert on who belongs or not in the Hall of Fame, Jay Jaffe, has repeatedly stated that Mauer will be elected and should go in on the first ballot .... and it isn't really very close. Baseball players, managers, and executives are all pretty much completely aligned with Jaffe. 

Joe Mauer was an amazing catcher and we are not likely to see his equal in a Twin uniform.

I don't want to tell you are wrong about Mauer because I don't know if you have passed the exam on concussions yet.

[tony&rodney]

6 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Why do we care that some fans don't understand his greatness? Why? How does that effect us at all? Why let it bother you?

I think you are absolutely correct. I don't know.

Maybe it is something about the tone of conversations that consistently denigrate the playing career of Mauer and reek of jealousy and are ignorant of the skills needed to perform as a catcher at the MLB level.

It doesn't affect me so much, but I have responded.  I'm going to follow your cue and ignore this going forward. Thanks.

[miracleb]

"It's common knowledge that baseball players are underpaid at the start of their MLB careers, at least the successful players. Then, when they hit free agency they can finally cash in on what they have accomplished. There are advantages and disadvantages to the system for the players. There's no guarantee to the club that the player will perform as well or better than previous performance. "

***************************************

The above would be correct if you abandon common sense and reason!  LOL!

NO Team...let me repeat....NO team..... is signing a guy in free agency based on what they did in the past(first few years of the MLB career.)  They are signing them to a big contract based on what they are calculating they will do in the future (during their new contract.)   That is what the Twins did with Joe Mauer.  There is nothing wrong with admitting this.   He never had the same type of season.  PERFECT timing for Joe Mauer!!!!   Yep...concussions were a big reason for this.....but there is nothing wrong with saying it.  Injuries cost him BIG TIME!!   Injuries made him LESS valuable.     That is just an honest statement.....

[jmlease1]

14 hours ago, puckstopper1 said:

As a catcher he was phenomenal and would / should be strongly considered for the Hall if he had stayed there.

But he did not.  He also did not play long enough, and he played for a small market team AND did not have any post season success.

Sorry - but his is not a Hall of Fame candidate IMO.

Why does playing for a small market have anything to do with whether a player is worthy of the Hall of Fame? A player should not get extra credit just because they play for the $#^$@* Yankees or Dodgers. A player should not get any demerits because they played for the Twins or Pirates or Royals. That's a ridiculous statement packed in a group of bad takes.

Mauer played 10 years as a catcher and 15 seasons in total. Is there a new rule that I'm unaware of mandating that a player has to play more seasons at a particular position to get in to the Hall? Is there a rule that says you have to play on a good team to be a Hall of Fame player? There's a ton of players in the Hall who had no postseason success (remember, there were a lot fewer opportunities in earlier years).

If you're going to exclude Mauer on this kind of criteria get ready to throw a lot of guys out of the Hall. The idea of a "small hall" where Willie Mays & Babe Ruth are the standard is long, long gone. It doesn't mean that everyone gets in, but Mauer is arguably one of the top 10 catchers of all-time and if he can't get in because he didn't play in a big market then I really have no idea what is going on here.

[DJL44]

22 hours ago, Beast said:

Yeah it’s nuts that people not only under-appreciate Mauer, but almost openly detest him.

Jealousy is not a good look for most people.

[DJL44]

16 hours ago, Twinkies are for eating said:

The hall of fame used to mean something. At a minimum you had to get to 3,000 hits.

That hasn't been the standard for the Hall of Fame since about 1946.

[Karbo]

I hate to say it, but I agree he probably won't be a 1st ballot entry. He surely belongs in the hall though and IMO will get in because he was hands down the best catcher of his generation. Look how long Tony O had to wait. Mauer shouldn't wait that long, but so few guys get in on the 1st ballot I would say probably not.

[Trov]

I cannot predict how the writers will vote.  Some look at total numbers.  Some look at how did they compare to others.  Some look how they dealt with them personally and in media, that is just how the writers thought of them as a person.  Joe should, and I believe will get in HOF, but I said Santana should have as well and he bounced quickly.  Sometimes writers look at how a career ended and get soured.  Joe had kind of 2 careers.  The pre concussion career which was HOF bound 1st ballot.  Then post concussion, was down turn of career and was good, but not great.  He should not be slighted for that, but fact is some writers will. 

The fact that Joe was never got it done in playoffs.  He did not have the power some hoped.  He was about as bland of an interview one could give.  He just never was a media guy.  Those are all the negatives, but he was the best overall hitting catcher for his time, and maybe of all time.  Hard to fully judge that because he did play his full career there. 

No matter what he should be in, just a matter of when. 

[terrydactyls]

1 hour ago, miracleb said:

"It's common knowledge that baseball players are underpaid at the start of their MLB careers, at least the successful players. Then, when they hit free agency they can finally cash in on what they have accomplished. There are advantages and disadvantages to the system for the players. There's no guarantee to the club that the player will perform as well or better than previous performance. "

***************************************

The above would be correct if you abandon common sense and reason!  LOL!

NO Team...let me repeat....NO team..... is signing a guy in free agency based on what they did in the past(first few years of the MLB career.)  They are signing them to a big contract based on what they are calculating they will do in the future (during their new contract.)   

Now that makes no sense at all.  How does a team attempt "calculating (what) they will do in the future"?  They thoroughly examine prior years to establish what they are willing to offer.  It seems to that is exactly "signing a guy in free agency based on what they did in the past.". If the past isn't the determining factor, then you are making an offer based on nothing.

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Karbo said:

I hate to say it, but I agree he probably won't be a 1st ballot entry. He surely belongs in the hall though and IMO will get in because he was hands down the best catcher of his generation. Look how long Tony O had to wait. Mauer shouldn't wait that long, but so few guys get in on the 1st ballot I would say probably not.

There have been two first-ballot Hall of Fame catchers: Johnny Bench and Ivan Rodriguez. Not Berra, Carter, Fisk, Campanella or Piazza. It's no snub for Mauer to have to wait a couple years.

[Blyleven2011]

I can't believe all this bickering on the assumption of Joe Mauer getting in to the hall of fame  ...

Everyone has their opinions  and are entitled  to them ...

Will Joe Mauer get into the hall of fame , ONLY TIME WILL TELL NEXT JANUARY  ...

see you next JANUARY when the ballots are read for discussion  on whether joe gets elected or not ...

[Minny505]

Is the point of this piece that Mauer will not be inducted on the first ballot? That's probably correct.

But he's pretty much a shoe-in. I don't think there is any concern about Mauer being a part of the induction ceremony in the next five years.

[Mike Sixel]

12 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

I think you are absolutely correct. I don't know.

Maybe it is something about the tone of conversations that consistently denigrate the playing career of Mauer and reek of jealousy and are ignorant of the skills needed to perform as a catcher at the MLB level.

It doesn't affect me so much, but I have responded.  I'm going to follow your cue and ignore this going forward. Thanks.

It's not as easy as I hoped, but I'm better at it as I get older. 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

It's not as easy as I hoped, but I'm better at it as I get older. 

Yah, I'm already quite older and usually the most relaxed person in any setting.

Something about seeing Mauer play since he was a 10th grader .... blah, blah. 

I'm turning that leaf though.