I believe there will be a few players available as free agents this year after the the big ticket shortstops sign that will want a "make good" 1 year contract similar to what Simmons signed this year. If not There are always some utility infielders available via trades for low level prospect types that the Twins have plenty of that could fill the hole for part or all the year if worse came to worse. I would rather do that than to keep bouncing Polo back and forth between 2nd and short. As you say, we have a decent frontline defense so lets not mess it up.

Simmons will certainly be available on a one year deal again, for cheaper. He can't possibly hit worse than he did this year, right??

If the front office does not think they can resign Buxston, they might see if San Diego would give up C J Abrams and MacKenzie Gore

I don't think the Twins have a major league SS in their system right now. I think it's the biggest failure of this FO. There are guys I think will hit at the ML level and guys who can field at the major league level, but nobody who can do both. I think the Twins should make a legit push for one of the big name guys on a 5 or 6 year deal. I think Baez or Story could be had for less than the other superstar shortstops. I don't know if they'd be interested in coming here (Baez may want to stay with his friend Lindor in NY and run that back next year), but I think the Twins should make a run at those big name guys. Donaldson has 2 expensive years left, but the Twins don't really have other big price tag guys around for multiple years. Extend Buxton and bring in one of these SSs to pair with Polanco in the middle for the next few years. 

I know the Twins need pitching, but that needs to come from the prospect pipeline. I hope they go after some big name guys and maybe sign 1 of them this offseason, but for the sustained success they want to have they need to produce arms internally. With the youth movement happening now and so many guys on pre-arb and arb deals for the next handful of years I think they can afford both a Buxton extension and a big time SS. Lock up the middle of the field with Buxton, Polanco, and a FA SS. They have plenty of young guys to handle the corners.

I think the money needs to go elsewhere if the Twins really want to contend. I’d go with this depth chart:

3B Donaldson/Miranda/Arraez

SS Polanco/Gordon/Palacios

2B Gordon/Arraez/Miranda

1B Sano/Kirilloff/Miranda

LF Michael Brantley/Larnach

CF Buxton/Greg Allen or Billy Hamilton

RF Kirilloff/Kepler/Cabbage

C Garver/Jeffers/Rortvedt

DH Miranda/Donaldson/Sano

SP Ray or Syndergaard

SP Danny Duffy

SP Michael Pineda

SP Greinke or Ober

SP Joe Ryan

If Greinke then Ober 6th in line or he could win a spot in Spring training

Depth Cole Sands, Charlie Barnes, maybe at some point Duran

RP Rogers

RP Thielbar

RP Garza

RP Alcala

RP Juan Minaya

Long Relief Gant

RP Vincent has to "make good'

3 hours ago, Greglw3 said:

LF Michael Brantley/Larnach

Michael Brantley is under contract with the Houston Astros in 2022. Are the Astros cutting him and eating $16M or are the Twins trading for him and taking on $16M while also trying to sign Ray or Syndergaard, Duffy, and Grienke and, presumably, extending Buxton (don't think they'd like to start 2022 with him if he isn't under long-term control)?

Polanco is not an option. The short time Simmons was out, Polanco was really  hurting in all aspect of his game. He might have been hurting physically. We don't have anyone in the system that can step in and take control of this key position. If FO decide to do this, they'd lose all credibility in my book.

 Adrianza isn't any better than we have in house. My opinion is we need a glove at SS to keep Polanco at 2B where he can continue to rise. So a cheaper FA that fall through the cracks or find a SS via trade. CF replacement, continue to be a sore spot. Let's see if FO finally come through or still think Cave is our answer. SS and CF are crucial positions, we need viable depth there or all is lost.

I hope Polanco remains at 2B. His skillset was stretched thin before his 2 ankle surgeries. Keep him at 2B and let him rake at the plate. 

I am in full agreement with @chpettit19believing there isn’t a true SS prospect in the organization. I want to take advantage of this historic SS free agent class and land one of Seager, Correa, or Baez. I simply won’t believe they’ll spend big money on pitching until I see it. There’s better odds they’ll do it for an everyday position player at a premium spot like SS. 

No on Polanco playing SS. He's an all-star at 2B, giving fantastic offense and above average D. Moving him to SS really weakens the D, especially if you slot in Arraez/Miranda or even Gordon (who would be the best of the three there but is still not as good defensively as Polanco), and that's ignoring the likelihood that playing SS again will have negative impacts on Polanco's health and offense. but more importantly, no matter how many times fans bring it up, the front office has made it very clear they want Polanco at 2B and they don't see him as a full-time SS. So can we stop wasting time on this?

I'm happy to see the back of Simmons; the offense is dreadful and he's slipped enough on D to not make him worth the scratch. He's still good on D, but too stinky at the plate now. I do think it's likely that he has a bit of a bounceback on offense next season; this year has been a career worst and it's not even close, so it wouldn't shock me at all if next year he was closer to 2019 Simmons on offense (which would have been a satisfactory season here too), but he's not worth making the bet that he's going to hold his defensive value and improve his offense while paying him anything of significance, especially with so many other options.

Just a note: the article is incorrect on Austin Martin: he has played SS since joining Wichita; his splits were 20 at CF, 16 at SS, and 1 at DH. Can he stick there? I'd say it's less likely than Lewis, but it's still not outside of the realm.

Personally, I'd love to get Trevor Story and I hope everyone forgets about him but us...his defense is very good, he can hit, and we might be able to buy a little low on him. (probably not, but he's a player I'd be happy to go in on.)

23 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't think the Twins have a major league SS in their system right now. I think it's the biggest failure of this FO. There are guys I think will hit at the ML level and guys who can field at the major league level, but nobody who can do both. I think the Twins should make a legit push for one of the big name guys on a 5 or 6 year deal. I think Baez or Story could be had for less than the other superstar shortstops. I don't know if they'd be interested in coming here (Baez may want to stay with his friend Lindor in NY and run that back next year), but I think the Twins should make a run at those big name guys. Donaldson has 2 expensive years left, but the Twins don't really have other big price tag guys around for multiple years. Extend Buxton and bring in one of these SSs to pair with Polanco in the middle for the next few years. 

I know the Twins need pitching, but that needs to come from the prospect pipeline. I hope they go after some big name guys and maybe sign 1 of them this offseason, but for the sustained success they want to have they need to produce arms internally. With the youth movement happening now and so many guys on pre-arb and arb deals for the next handful of years I think they can afford both a Buxton extension and a big time SS. Lock up the middle of the field with Buxton, Polanco, and a FA SS. They have plenty of young guys to handle the corners.

How many teams have a SS that is a good fielder and hitter?  There are very few SS that are considered top fielder and top hitter, so you could say most teams FO have failed if that is a bench mark for success.  Most teams have to decide if the bat makes up for the glove or vice versa.  

This is similar to Catchers, very few are great on defense and good at the plate, and teams have to decide if they are good enough on one side to make up for deficit on the other.  

Nick Gordon. Problem solved.

The SS market is setting up to be very exciting this offseason but the Twins better have the SS of the future in house. I'm afraid the Twins won't allocate the resources to sign a frontline guy. After seeing what Lindor got from the Mets (10yr/$341M) that, or something close, has to be the target for Seager, Story and Correa who all have a higher career OPS. Maybe somebody slips through and wants a one-year deal but then you're in the same predicament next offseason.

You raised a lot of questions, questions that the FO is paid to answer.  How they will respond will keep our winter interesting.

You stated that Martin played exclusively in the outfield after coming over from Toronto.  That isn't accurate.  I watched maybe five games after he arrived and in two of them he was at shortstop.  How many he played in total, I don't know, but he was at short in almost half the games I saw.  

Add me to the list of those who: 1) don't know whether either of the top prospects will eventually become good major league shortstops; and 2) if the FO feels one may, am ok with having Polo at short for one more year until they get here.  Polo, Arraez and Gordon can be adequate to solid defensively up the middle and very good with their bats.

1 hour ago, Trov said:

How many teams have a SS that is a good fielder and hitter?  There are very few SS that are considered top fielder and top hitter, so you could say most teams FO have failed if that is a bench mark for success.  Most teams have to decide if the bat makes up for the glove or vice versa.  

This is similar to Catchers, very few are great on defense and good at the plate, and teams have to decide if they are good enough on one side to make up for deficit on the other.  

I didn't mean be an above average hitter for the league as a whole, I meant hit well enough to play as a glove only SS in the majors. Take Simmons for example. He can still field the position, but he can't even hit well enough to even be a glove first major league SS anymore. He barely hit enough when he was an all world glove at the position. The hitting standards for a glove first SS aren't terribly high, and I don't think the Twins have anyone who can even meet those standards while also fielding as well as you need to at that position to warrant a major league spot. The Miller kid they just drafted may fit the bill, but he's a fresh out of high school signing so he's not an answer anytime soon.

I think it would be prudent of the Twins to give a ring to the Cardinals about Paul Dejong (28yrs old) and the Orioles about Ramon Urias (27). 

Dejong is a stud defender on a $4.3aav thru 2023. He could easily slide into a backup infielder role when Lewis is ready. He's a steady 2-4 win player over 5 seasons and is now buried on the Carinals bench due to their own young guys coming up.

Urias is a bat first SS on the level of of Javy Baez, Bo Bichette, and Tim Anderson. He is an average-ish defender. He is already 27 and not likely to be the SS on the next good Orioles team due to his age, but they may not want to trade him to slide him to 2B in a couple years with that bat. He is still pre-arb so he may be a little prospect expensive, but the O's may want to cash in on his peak value and they need prospects in the worst way so a quantity package might be the ticket.

2 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

Personally, I'd love to get Trevor Story and I hope everyone forgets about him but us...his defense is very good, he can hit, and we might be able to buy a little low on him. (probably not, but he's a player I'd be happy to go in on.)

Story and Seager both have interesting offseasons ahead of them. They will both get the QO. They may both take it after having down years. We've seen how risky the FA stigma can be when a player has that pick attached and this is not the ideal scenario for either to go get that once-in-a-career payday.

I realize I am still a minority on this subject, but since I first started truly following the game in the mid '60's, and from what I hear and read decades before that, teams prioritized defense at SS and catcher.  Corner infielders, corner outfielders, and sometimes 2nd or center would produce the pop; the two most demanding positions were considered SS and catcher and offense wasn't a first priority.  Teams would have .180 and .190 hitters at these positions while their pitchers hit as well.  In the '60's the Twins had 2 or 3 pretty good hitting pitchers I used to see pinch hit for position players in late or extra innings, the hitters were not as good but played the field, and the pitchers wouldn't have it any other way.  Now, in the AL, we have hitters who do nothing but, so teams are even more capable of keeping the gloves they need.  The concept that Simmons has hurt the team is bizarre to me.  A .220 hitting exceptional glove, and yes, he is still an exceptional glove, is more than acceptable on a team that is what?  2nd in the league in home nuns and middle of the pack in almost all other offensive categories?  If we had a manager who knew anything about manufacturing runs.......arrgg, don't get me started.   The only problem I have ever seen with Simmons is his price tag.  He needs to come down, and he will after this season, but an affordable Simmons is better than moving Polanco OR taking a flyer on an unproven rookie.  The infield needs stability, and constant moving parts are killing us.  Keep this group together, and everyone will be more comfortable with each other.  And Simmons will pick up the pace; his career record suggests this year was the anomaly, not the norm.  (although I might spell Sano on the field a little more often)  

Don't get me wrong, if we can pick up a top tier SS on the open market, by all means.  But the kind of money I see bantered about day in and day out being spent on payroll, isn't as realistic as people would like to believe after 2 straight years of huge losses, as well as a new CBA looming.  Put the money into pitching, and keep the gloves behind them and where they belong, not moving around the field like musical chairs.  We have enough talent to cover the flaws as we stand today; keep moving the parts and the crap shoot continues.  Oh, and did I say we should put our money into pitching?  If not, we should put our money into pitching.  

1 hour ago, Mark G said:

I realize I am still a minority on this subject, but since I first started truly following the game in the mid '60's, and from what I hear and read decades before that, teams prioritized defense at SS and catcher.  Corner infielders, corner outfielders, and sometimes 2nd or center would produce the pop; the two most demanding positions were considered SS and catcher and offense wasn't a first priority.  Teams would have .180 and .190 hitters at these positions while their pitchers hit as well.  In the '60's the Twins had 2 or 3 pretty good hitting pitchers I used to see pinch hit for position players in late or extra innings, the hitters were not as good but played the field, and the pitchers wouldn't have it any other way.  Now, in the AL, we have hitters who do nothing but, so teams are even more capable of keeping the gloves they need.  The concept that Simmons has hurt the team is bizarre to me.  A .220 hitting exceptional glove, and yes, he is still an exceptional glove, is more than acceptable on a team that is what?  2nd in the league in home nuns and middle of the pack in almost all other offensive categories?  If we had a manager who knew anything about manufacturing runs.......arrgg, don't get me started.   The only problem I have ever seen with Simmons is his price tag.  He needs to come down, and he will after this season, but an affordable Simmons is better than moving Polanco OR taking a flyer on an unproven rookie.  The infield needs stability, and constant moving parts are killing us.  Keep this group together, and everyone will be more comfortable with each other.  And Simmons will pick up the pace; his career record suggests this year was the anomaly, not the norm.  (although I might spell Sano on the field a little more often)  

Don't get me wrong, if we can pick up a top tier SS on the open market, by all means.  But the kind of money I see bantered about day in and day out being spent on payroll, isn't as realistic as people would like to believe after 2 straight years of huge losses, as well as a new CBA looming.  Put the money into pitching, and keep the gloves behind them and where they belong, not moving around the field like musical chairs.  We have enough talent to cover the flaws as we stand today; keep moving the parts and the crap shoot continues.  Oh, and did I say we should put our money into pitching?  If not, we should put our money into pitching.  

I'm with you Mark. There's plenty of reasons why the Twins did soooo bad this season and Simmons isn't one of them. If Polanco remained at SS like so many wanted, he'd continued his downward spiral and we'd have totally  tanked along with Polanco, possibly w/o return. The problem w/ Simmon's  bat is the importance the Twins put on HRs. When he hit those early HRs it went to his head and he over swung on everything. That plus the long pause he looked terrible. The focus needs to be is to stay inside yourself, who you are, not who you aren't. You can't look only at errors, you need to look at range. The old infield bled to death with grounders always fining their way through. Going back to the old infield is not an option.

23 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

I'm with you Mark. There's plenty of reasons why the Twins did soooo bad this season and Simmons isn't one of them. If Polanco remained at SS like so many wanted, he'd continued his downward spiral and we'd have totally  tanked along with Polanco, possibly w/o return. The problem w/ Simmon's  bat is the importance the Twins put on HRs. When he hit those early HRs it went to his head and he over swung on everything. That plus the long pause he looked terrible. The focus needs to be is to stay inside yourself, who you are, not who you aren't. You can't look only at errors, you need to look at range. The old infield bled to death with grounders always fining their way through. Going back to the old infield is not an option.

You hit it on the head not only with Simmons, but with Austidillo, and Jeffers as well.  Anyone who watches Austidillo and sees him swing out of his helmet and on to his knees, can see he is thinking power all the way all the time.  And the one thing that impressed me the most when Jeffers first came up last year is how he would square up on the ball and hit line drives; now he is doing slightly more of an upper angle and, again, looking for power numbers, and not squaring up as often as he is capable of.  Austidillo puts it in play 94% of his at bats, and Jeffers can do much better in that area if they both would just use their natural talents.  Simmons will do better, somewhere, as well.  If we would let them be themselves, they could all do better here and solve a lot of our holes (and not cost too much; did I mention we need money for pitching?).  Just my extremely humble opinion.  

This will be a hot topic of conversation throughout the off season.  For a while I have felt that Lewis would end up in the OF and not at SS.  Martin has the potential to help at SS but his ability to play other positions makes him more of a Chris Taylor type...in the lineup nearly every day, but deployed all over the field.  With the current logjam of infielders (Polanco, Arraez, Gordon, Miranda, Martin, Palacios and possibly Lewis)  I see the Twins trading Arraez in a package for starting pitching.  Arraez still has pretty solid trade value and we have a glut of talent coming up that I feel makes him expendable (plus Rocco refuses to make him our leadoff guy so why not trade him for pitching).  Simmons will probably be a better hitter next year.  How much better ?  Guys like Story and Baez are tempting because they are VERY GOOD fielders who have some POP.  The top off season priority is signing Buxton to a long term deal.  The second priority is signing/trading for 2-3 SP's who are GOOD (not Happ or Shoemaker types).  If Pineda is brought back on a reasonable deal the Twins have #3---#5 set (Pineda, Ryan, Ober).  With Dobnak there is some depth and then they track Balazovic and others to see if they're ready.  That means they need to sign a FA (Ray, Rodon, Gausman, Stroman etc...) and TRADE for one SP ( an Alcantara type---young and talented and who will take some heavy prospect value...Jeffers and Larnach as an example).  THEN they have to figure out what their plan is at SS.  A big splash like Story or Baez?  Or a stop gap like DeJong (great suggestion) or Iglesias, Galvis etc...   The Twins were a MESS this year.  But the A.L. Central is WIDE OPEN.  The White Sox are not a LOCK to repeat.  The Twins FO has an opportunity to retool this roster in a strategic and effective fashion.  Their jobs depend on it.

2 hours ago, TopGunn#22 said:

This will be a hot topic of conversation throughout the off season.  For a while I have felt that Lewis would end up in the OF and not at SS.  Martin has the potential to help at SS but his ability to play other positions makes him more of a Chris Taylor type...in the lineup nearly every day, but deployed all over the field.  With the current logjam of infielders (Polanco, Arraez, Gordon, Miranda, Martin, Palacios and possibly Lewis)  I see the Twins trading Arraez in a package for starting pitching.  Arraez still has pretty solid trade value and we have a glut of talent coming up that I feel makes him expendable (plus Rocco refuses to make him our leadoff guy so why not trade him for pitching).  Simmons will probably be a better hitter next year.  How much better ?  Guys like Story and Baez are tempting because they are VERY GOOD fielders who have some POP.  The top off season priority is signing Buxton to a long term deal.  The second priority is signing/trading for 2-3 SP's who are GOOD (not Happ or Shoemaker types).  If Pineda is brought back on a reasonable deal the Twins have #3---#5 set (Pineda, Ryan, Ober).  With Dobnak there is some depth and then they track Balazovic and others to see if they're ready.  That means they need to sign a FA (Ray, Rodon, Gausman, Stroman etc...) and TRADE for one SP ( an Alcantara type---young and talented and who will take some heavy prospect value...Jeffers and Larnach as an example).  THEN they have to figure out what their plan is at SS.  A big splash like Story or Baez?  Or a stop gap like DeJong (great suggestion) or Iglesias, Galvis etc...   The Twins were a MESS this year.  But the A.L. Central is WIDE OPEN.  The White Sox are not a LOCK to repeat.  The Twins FO has an opportunity to retool this roster in a strategic and effective fashion.  Their jobs depend on it.

MIA is loaded with quality starting pitching. I agree with the saying you can never have too much starting pitching but MIA seems not able to get it done with just that. Hopefully the Twins have what MIA needs to be able to wrangle one of those pitchers away from them. Mia also has some good pitching prospects coming up

On 9/29/2021 at 3:57 PM, chpettit19 said:

Michael Brantley is under contract with the Houston Astros in 2022. Are the Astros cutting him and eating $16M or are the Twins trading for him and taking on $16M while also trying to sign Ray or Syndergaard, Duffy, and Grienke and, presumably, extending Buxton (don't think they'd like to start 2022 with him if he isn't under long-term control)?

Oops! My bad. I’ll offer up two alternatives for LF. From baseball reference:

or

2 hours ago, Greglw3 said:

Oops! My bad. I’ll offer up two alternatives for LF. From baseball reference:

or

 

 

 

 

Both players changed teams at the trade deadline, why didn't you include the entire year for both? If you want to make an argument to bring either player in maybe they should be considered for the same period of time.

6 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Both players changed teams at the trade deadline, why didn't you include the entire year for both? If you want to make an argument to bring either player in maybe they should be considered for the same period of time.

I'll put my money on Eddie Rosario every time. He’s infinitely better than Jake Cave and Trevor Larnach combined this year. Just making the point that those who are Eddie detractors can’t depend on him staying down too long. He did a lot of special things for the Twins including 15 triples one year, a high ROY ranking and 2 time all star plus the 32 HR and 109 RBIs which lead the team over Nelson Cruz. But the Twins plod on with Jake Cave hitting .185.

Eddie has a career OPS+ of 108, solidly above average. Unlikely Twins can reverse their mistake because the Braves will want to re-sign him. Just one of a multitude of reasons that I gave Falvey and Levine and F.

Interesting discussion.  So many comments talked about playing players where they are best suited.  Others refer to the Twins as a mess.  Most comments are reasonable.  If we can see it, why doesn’t management?  If they do, the place to start this off-season is with the Manager.