Torii Hunter- My Case for Cooperstown

If defense matters so much you should be stumping for Andruw Jones - he's clearly a better defender than Torii. Andruw actually produced more at the plate over his career as well (RBat 119 vs 113).

Torii has a (weak) case but not as good as Edmonds or Andruw or Lofton. That's just among recently retired CF.

Very well written. I think he deserves a spot in the HOF, but it’s going to be difficult to get him in without Andruw Jones in.

3 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

If defense matters so much you should be stumping for Andruw Jones - he's clearly a better defender than Torii. Andruw actually produced more at the plate over his career as well (RBat 119 vs 113).

Torii has a (weak) case but not as good as Edmonds or Andruw or Lofton. That's just among recently retired CF.

I never understood why Kenny Lofton didn’t get more support for the Hall.

2 minutes ago, brockbesler said:

I never understood why Kenny Lofton didn’t get more support for the Hall.

His sexual misconduct charge isn't going to help his case.

1 minute ago, Matt Braun said:

I'd love to support Torii more, but it's clear that advanced stats don't buy that he's one of the greatest defensive center fielders of all-time; he's like outfield Derek Jeter, unfortunately. 

That's unfair. Jeter was a below average SS with a Gold Glove rep. Torii was at least an above average CF with a Gold Glove rep. He's more like the outfield version of Omar Vizquel. Vizquel and Torii were both very good defenders but not all-time greats.

Very good player, no doubt. Not HOF though. 

I think it really comes down to are you a big hall or small hall person.  Baseball has wanted to be a small hall all along, with having years of no one getting in.  I fully agree he could be warranted just based on his defense alone, but I think where he falls for me, is he never was the guy that pushed us over the top.  He always put up good numbers, but not great, and was never a guy people were like, we are scared to face him.  

He did make web gems a thing and was always making great catches, in the dome which is even crazier.  He also played during time of Andruw Jones and Jones was considered better during that time overall, but Jones did fall off after age 30, Hunter managed to play at a higher level late into 30's, which to me should be considered.  

I feel if you are one of the best of your era at a position, you should be considered, but the baseball hall has always wanted to compare across eras and offense counting numbers was always important, unless you are Ozzie Smith as point out. 

Nice article. Thanks. However, I'm not convinced Torii belongs in the Hall of Fame. 

He has a shot I believe

I'm a big fan of Torii Hunter as a player, and he was one of the more exciting players in Twins history. But for me, he falls short of Hall of Fame.

I'm not militant about small hall v big hall, and I think there's room for players who had really high peaks as well as those who didn't rise quite as high but had long runs of sustained excellence. Torii's case relies more on the second than the first; he just didn't have any of those amazing seasons where you had to consider him one of the best of the best in baseball, a true MVP contender, etc. There's something to be said for having 13 years in a row where you don't have a bad season, but he only landed 5 all-star appearances...and that was fairly generous based on his performance. Yes, he won 9 Gold Gloves, but the metrics suggest that most of the later ones were probably more due to reputation than performance. (This is where the Ozzie Smith argument falls flat: Oz really was that great on defense by any analysis)

When Torii's bat got going, his defense was already slipping. When he was a great defender, he hadn't figured out how to really hit yet. He was frequently a good offensive player, never a great one (never had an OPS+ over 130) Looking at a couple of Torii's peers is instructive: Jim Edmonds & Mike Cameron. Neither is in the Hall, and I'd argue Torii is closer to Cameron than Edmonds...and no one is really advocating for Mike Cameron as a Hall of Famer. (Lofton was better than any of them, but seems to have detonated his chances through his personal conduct)

Torii was a wonderful player. But he falls short for me.

3 hours ago, Karbo said:

What you forgot in the article was what a classy person he was. Even fans in other cities loved the guy. Personally, the catch he made in an all star game against Barry Bonds will always stand out. I would vote for him 

I am glad he was on the Twins, and I'm glad he came back after he left, but I wouldn't vote for him.  He was one of the best defensive CF of his generation. Ozzie Smith was one of the best defensive SS of all time, possibly the best. That's not a small difference. While SS and CF are both considered premium defensive positions, SS is far more premium.  (SS= Ruth's Chris.  CF=Texas Roadhouse) 

Also, while OPS and OPS+ are useful estimates of a player's offense, they tend to undervalue guys who generate most of their offense from OBP rather than SLG.  Ozzie and Torii didn't have a huge gap in OBP (career .337 to .331), Ozzie's was higher.  If you compare their oWAR over the course of their careers, they close.  If you compare their dWAR, they aren't.  (dWAR might be flawed, but not THAT flawed.  44.2 to 4.0 career dWAR).  

IMO defense, hitting, scruples & class do matter. More than most people give them credit for. Comparing Hunter to these steroids addicts like Barry Bonds is not fair. During this era we look at Hunter & say he's really good but he's no Barry Bonds. He's no Barry Bonds because he didn't take steroids.

In an era where steroids were very prevalent, It'd be very easy to yield to that temptation. Hunter chose to not go down that road and that should count for something. He has my vote.

12 hours ago, gil4 said:

I am glad he was on the Twins, and I'm glad he came back after he left, but I wouldn't vote for him.  He was one of the best defensive CF of his generation. Ozzie Smith was one of the best defensive SS of all time, possibly the best. That's not a small difference. While SS and CF are both considered premium defensive positions, SS is far more premium.  (SS= Ruth's Chris.  CF=Texas Roadhouse) 

Also, while OPS and OPS+ are useful estimates of a player's offense, they tend to undervalue guys who generate most of their offense from OBP rather than SLG.  Ozzie and Torii didn't have a huge gap in OBP (career .337 to .331), Ozzie's was higher.  If you compare their oWAR over the course of their careers, they close.  If you compare their dWAR, they aren't.  (dWAR might be flawed, but not THAT flawed.  44.2 to 4.0 career dWAR).  

I was going to post about the difference the dWAR according to baseball reference.  I do not know the exact metric on how they go about it, but the have that big of a difference over a career, and Smith was never negative.  I get the authors point that not many can stick to a position like CF for full career, and compared CB in football.  However, the same can be said for SS, as very few stay at it, or are considered good on defense at it late in career.  One of the next closest is Omar Vizquel who had a career 29.5 dWAR.  I think the point that not many can do it, should show that the few that do it, are HOF compared to others.  

Baseball HOF has always compared across eras, but even compared to his counter parts, Hunter was never considered HOF bound.  He put up some great defense, and I have not done the research on all CF, but Andruw Jones has dWAR of 24.4.  Mike Cameron had career dWAR of 10.3, also played to age 38.  Maybe Hunter was not as great of a defender as we thought.  He made amazing catches, which always look great, but compared to 2 CF of his era he overall defense was not as good as either.  

Not a HOF player. Period. Not even close.   And I enjoyed Torri as a player.   Too many people lowering the bar on the HOF. It's got to stop. 

43 minutes ago, Trov said:

I was going to post about the difference the dWAR according to baseball reference.  I do not know the exact metric on how they go about it, but the have that big of a difference over a career, and Smith was never negative.  I get the authors point that not many can stick to a position like CF for full career, and compared CB in football.  However, the same can be said for SS, as very few stay at it, or are considered good on defense at it late in career.  One of the next closest is Omar Vizquel who had a career 29.5 dWAR.  I think the point that not many can do it, should show that the few that do it, are HOF compared to others.  

Baseball HOF has always compared across eras, but even compared to his counter parts, Hunter was never considered HOF bound.  He put up some great defense, and I have not done the research on all CF, but Andruw Jones has dWAR of 24.4.  Mike Cameron had career dWAR of 10.3, also played to age 38.  Maybe Hunter was not as great of a defender as we thought.  He made amazing catches, which always look great, but compared to 2 CF of his era he overall defense was not as good as either.  

dWAR is useless for almost everything. Use RField to figure out how good a player was versus their positional average.

2 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

In an era where steroids were very prevalent, It'd be very easy to yield to that temptation. Hunter chose to not go down that road and that should count for something. He has my vote.

"Didn't take steroids" shouldn't be impressive enough to get a Hall of Fame vote. That's like "Didn't swear at his dog".

44 minutes ago, HoskenPowell said:

Not a HOF player. Period. Not even close.   And I enjoyed Torri as a player.   Too many people lowering the bar on the HOF. It's got to stop. 

I agree, they really need to quit inducting players like Harold Baines, Jim Kaat, Tony Oliva and Lee Smith.

I actually agree that Torri has a shot, at the hall and will be more revered by his peers.  To me he was just a tad light on the counting stats.  I think if he gets over 2500 hits,  slightly more homers, and over 200 steals,  he is viewed as basically a shoe in with his defense.  If he pushed to 400 home runs he is a 1st ballot hall of famer.  I think he should be in,  I think compared to his peers he comes in a tad light for the writers.