Who Should Be Gone From the Coaching Staff?

gmarais66 · September 9, 2014

I've always liked Gardy and thought Anderson was pretty capable. I don't think they have all of a sudden become bad coaches, but I do think the fire is gone. I think they've been worn down by these losing seasons and they aren't capable of turning things around. I think they both need to go at the end of the season. About a month or so ago, on ESPN 1500, they were talking about how Gardy had really put in a lot of extra time helping players like Hunter, Morneau and other top players from a decade ago, become successful at the major league level. They had a bond and he had a personal connection with them. Because of that relationship, they gave him their best and wanted to succeed under his leadership. To this day, a lot of those players will still credit Gardy for their early development. Yet the new crop of rising Twins' talent can't say the same thing. The person they credit, most often, is Molitor, who worked with them in the minors. My hope is that Molitor is named the next manager. He has one of the best baseball minds around and he has that connection with the younger players. Let Molitor pick his next pitching coach. I'm sure he'd pick a good one.

Brock Beauchamp · September 9, 2014

I think Terry stays on until we are good again. Tough to put him in charge of a rebuild, then can him before his prized players are even up here. I think he ends up retiring versus being fired.

Agreed. I think Ryan will bow out gracefully. I have a hard time seeing him get fired... And we all know that he's considering retirement, given that he did it once already.

Otto von Ballpark · September 9, 2014

One other thought. While football and baseball are radically different sports, the Vikings had a team with a well liked coach. But his record was poor, his coordinators not up to the task, and the whole team had a look of disorganization. The GM cleaned house, and at first glance order has been restored. Time will tell.

In regards to the Vikings and Wolves: both teams had an extended streak of early/disappointing playoff exits, then quickly got rid of their head coaches once their regular-season success dried up (Denny Green in 2001, Flip Saunders in ~2004). That would suggest Gardy should already be gone; on the other hand, neither of those coaching changes helped those franchises...

Mike Sixel · September 9, 2014

I don't care about the FIP/xFIP measure.......especially if people are saying not to change any position players but LF......how do people expect the D to get fixed?

The Twins have been awful at SP for years, now. They graduated the one guy they have drafted and developed recently, and called up 2 guys TR traded for, and had 3 FA signings, and they are still awful. How is that NOT on the GM? According to all the former GM/FO types on line, the two ways to judge GMs is trades and FA signings, since the scouting director does the drafting.

On the coaching front, this team does not do the little things right. That is on coaching, not on talent. If you claim it is not on coaching, what, exactly, do coaches do other than coach?

Otto von Ballpark · September 9, 2014

I am pretty ambivalent about changing managers or GMs (or even coaches). I wouldn't mind keeping the current group, if they showed some evidence that they aren't as insulated / "country club" as they've been in the past. (Or continued showing such evidence, if you believe last winter's FA signings were a step in the right direction -- despite his contract, Nolasco is looking more and more like a traditional conservative TR move -- innings eater, low upside, friendly agent, etc.).

Changing coaches/manager/GM is one obvious way for the owners to demonstrate this, but I'd rather just see the incumbent group expand their horizons a bit. TR and his scouts obviously have plenty of baseball smarts: let's see them applied more (and more aggressively) to Cuba, Asia, domestic free agency, etc., and at least try to rebuild in less than 5 years. And Gardy and Anderson can obviously helm a solid team/staff too (although the playoff record gives me pause) -- no immediate need to replace them either, in my opinion.

diehardtwinsfan · September 9, 2014

I don't care about the FIP/xFIP measure.......especially if people are saying not to change any position players but LF......how do people expect the D to get fixed?

The Twins have been awful at SP for years, now. They graduated the one guy they have drafted and developed recently, and called up 2 guys TR traded for, and had 3 FA signings, and they are still awful. How is that NOT on the GM? According to all the former GM/FO types on line, the two ways to judge GMs is trades and FA signings, since the scouting director does the drafting.

On the coaching front, this team does not do the little things right. That is on coaching, not on talent. If you claim it is not on coaching, what, exactly, do coaches do other than coach?

Well, the guy they drafted had a pretty good year in his first full season. The guys they traded for predictably struggled (which the guy they drafted did too in his first call up). I think, to an extent, expecting instant success (especially from starting pitching) is asking a lot. That's just my 2 cents. I expect May to be much improved next season and Gibson to register a slight improvement as well.

My bigger concern is that they signed 3 FAs and only 1 worked out. In reality though, that is pretty normal. Look at last year's FA class. Most were pretty bad. For the Twins, the got one home run (Hughes), an injury (Pelfrey), and an epic fail that will hopefully rebound (Nolasco). The fans were asking for FAs, the FO obliged, and they went after some of the best options.

I'm not sure it's worth holding the GM accountable for doing what he was told to do and not defying the odds, especially considering that his primary task is rebuilding, which he is doing quite well. I'll say what I've said before on him... Once the rebuild is done, I'm not sure he's the guy. Right now, I want him at the helm. I won't say that about the current coaching staff.

Nick Nelson · September 9, 2014

I think it is more complicated asd well. When you lose 95 games, more than one person is to blame. No doubt. We can talk about why Gardy should not be fired and even I can come up with excuses. Nobody would have been good with his teams over the last 3 years. He has won the division a zillion times. He was the manager of the year.

But to me, I don't believe he is the right guy to lead this team moving forward. He does put the lineup together and decide who plays and who doesn't. He gets to decide who plays SS and CF, and catcher. He never platoons. I have worries about him handling young, talented players. He has head scratching guys batting in certain places. He has an irrational fear of losing his DH. So even if he had talent, I think other managers would squeeze a few more wins a year out of his team.

This is a good, reasoned take. I'm less interested in the "team sucks, fire Gardy" rants and more interested in WHY he should be removed and WHY someone else would be better.

goulik · September 9, 2014

Gardy/Andy are way, way over their head in today's game. (Some of the) Other teams probably know twice as much about the Twins as those two. Exhibit: Worley.

Im sorry, I agree with much of what you said, but Worley had/has an attitude problem IMHO and is not known for being the best guy to listen to coaches but is known to shift blame instead of take responsibility

Mike Sixel · September 9, 2014

Why would Milone struggle, other than not being good?

They are still nearly/last in SP outcomes produced, again this year. After how many years are we allowed to actually expect improvement? When does someone say, 5 years is too much, or 10 years is too much. For two years now, this board has said "be patient, they'll be better next year. If they aren't, then I'll judge them".....but that gets said every year. When is the year we should actually expect the SP not to be the worst in the league?

Mike Sixel · September 9, 2014

Gardy should be replaced because eventually every organization needs new thinking to get better.* They have shown very little indication that they are thinking differently, on the field. There is research in the NFL (no idea if there is in MLB), that coaches generally have about a 10 year life span of effectiveness.

*rules/guidelines are not 100%. They are expectations and how the world normally works. Sure, there are exceptions, but is Gardy really an exception?

Boom Boom · September 9, 2014

Im sorry, I agree with much of what you said, but Worley had/has an attitude problem IMHO and is not known for being the best guy to listen to coaches but is known to shift blame instead of take responsibility

I'm not going to defend Worley, but there's two sides to every story, and once Worley was gone we were only going to get the Twins' side of it.

alskntwnsfn · September 9, 2014

Im sorry, I agree with much of what you said, but Worley had/has an attitude problem IMHO and is not known for being the best guy to listen to coaches but is known to shift blame instead of take responsibility

That's probably fair. And it's not realistic to expect that any coach will get the best out of every player, and that none of them will go on to have success in other organizations. But again, what is the process for improvement? That's what I'm more interested in.

TR hasn't given Andy much to work with, there's no question about that. But they've also been very, very bad. So there's plenty of blame to go around on the pitching side, from the GM to the coaches to the players.

For me, the most outrageous moment was last year when Colabello was mired in a horrible slump and didn't turn it around until a call from Tony Oliva (or maybe it was Carew) told him to move closer to the plate. That is practically unforgiveable and it speaks volumes about a much deeper issue.

Willihammer · September 9, 2014

Its hard to peek inside the workings of the team but we've heard positive things about Molitor and Bruno from players about specific coaching eg. Dozier citing Molitor in coaching him with base stealing, Plouffe saying Molitor helped him with his footwork on defense, the turnaround of Dozier last year after working with Bruno, the overall improvement of the team in drawing walks and scoring runs, etc.

I wonder how feasible it would be to replace the manager and the pitching coach (and other?) with outsiders, while retaining some of the current staff - Molitor and Bruno (others?), specifically. It would be a shame to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Willihammer

USAFChief · September 9, 2014

I want a new manager because this organization has come to expect losing. Nobody...not the players, not the fans, not the GM, not the coaches, and not the manager, expects to win. It becomes a habit, or a culture. Losing.

I want a new voice, from outside, who expects to win,and goes about trying to make that happen because he knows his job depends on it. A manager looking to make a name for himself, rather than one trying to hold on for dear life because of the past.

A manager who will embrace new ideas, maybe even come up with a few of his own, rather than resist change at every opportunity.

The Twins should have changed managers already, certainly by last winter. It's inevitable. Putting it off farther into the future only reinforces in everyone's mind the perception this organization is a losing one.

Ron Gardenhire had his time, and he was once the right choice. But that time is over. He'll be fine. Move on.

Ben B · September 9, 2014

I have been a harsh Gardenhire critic in the past, but I've actually softened my stance on him during this four-year run. There's not a manager in baseball that could've won with this group of players. I would still like to see him replaced with someone more forward-thinking. It's just time for a change there, as long as his replacement isn't somebody on the current coaching staff. Everything about the organization feels stale.

With Anderson it's similar. No coach could've turned these terrible pitching staffs into good ones. However - there is a serious problem with pitchers struggling here and succeeding elsewhere, more so than with position players. It's reached a point where Anderson needs to take the fall for that.

ashbury · September 9, 2014

This is a good, reasoned take. I'm less interested in the "team sucks, fire Gardy" rants and more interested in WHY he should be removed and WHY someone else would be better.

The higher up in the organization, the more skills are needed. One reason I'm reluctant to see Terry Ryan go, even if I can name some faults, is that the GM position requires so many skills and our current guy doesn't have (IMO) a fatal flaw in any of them - the next person who sits in the chair will have a different collection of faults and it might not be clear that some of them are deal-breakers until too late. Being field manager is also complex, though IMO less so than the GM position, so I have similar concerns about trading Gardy's flaws for somebody else's.

But at the coaching level, well, more than one attribute may be needed, but still the skills seem much less rare. Anderson may indeed still be a good coach, but if he is mistakenly fired his replacement is much less likely to flame out totally, than for the higher-up positions. It's thus less risky to simply go by results and say it's time to move on. I feel the same about any coaching position, if a pattern of failure is showing.

old nurse · September 9, 2014

Changing managers without changing the core group of players in any sport rarely makes the team any better. The transition from Kelly to Gardenhire is one of the few examples I can remember where the only major change in the team was the manager and the pitching coach

Teflon · September 9, 2014

List of managers who have lost 90 or more games four consecutive years with the same team:

Tom Kelly, Minnesota Twins, 1997-2000

Zack Taylor, St. Louis Browns, 1948-1951

Connie Mack, Philadelphia A's, 1940-1943

Otto von Ballpark · September 9, 2014

Twins need a 12-7 finish now for Gardy to avoid that ignominious distinction.

Edited September 9, 2014 by spycake

iTwins · September 9, 2014

I've said this a few times around here, but I'll repeat my stance again just for fun.

Rick Anderson HAS to go. When a team finishes at or near the bottom in team ERA for four straight years, changes have to be made. It's not his fault the 2011 and 2012 staffs were attrocious - there's only so much a coach can do with Cole De Vries and PJ Walters. Their potential is limited from the word "go". That being said, when Vance Worley leaves gets a "mechanical tweak" and is suddenly the pitcher the Twins THOUGHT they were getting, it's hard to stomach. This season, he was given an average rotation and still, the results were not there. Is it all Anderson's fault? No. But someone has to fall on the sword after repeated failures and with the glaring issues on this team being pitching related - it has to be him.

I'm not convinced that Gardy's the problem either and I'm less inclined to throw him out the door when he's been forced to field a roster where one of the requirements seems to be "a shortstop needs to play in the OF". However, I can see the value in making an organizational change if only to change the message being delivered everyday. A shake up can provide value in terms of shock value too - it's not all business as usual, losing has consequences (etc, etc).

In the end, I'm OK with Gardy staying IF (only if) Rick Anderson is let go. If the two are a package deal - then both need to go. Something has to change in the dugout.

Terry Ryan can stay for a few more years (realistically, I think that's all he'll stay before retiring again) to complete the rebuild. Despite some questionable decisions (questionable according to us fans) he's made the Twins better across all levels. His work over the past few years should (key word: should) yield benefits for years to come.

Mike Sixel · September 9, 2014

So, it isn't the manager's fault, and apparently not the GM's fault? We should just expect a team to lose more than 90-95 games for at least four years every 10 years or so?

iTwins · September 9, 2014

So, it isn't the manager's fault, and apparently not the GM's fault? We should just expect a team to lose more than 90-95 games for at least four years every 10 years or so?

I get your point Mike - but for the sake of argument, here's a counterpoint.

What exactly does another manager do with this current roster to earn more wins? Are these losing seasons a symptom of Gardy being unable to competently manage a big league team?

Terry Ryan has done a great job building depth within the minor league system to the point where all of the Twins minor league affiliates just made the playoffs or nearly made the playoffs. He's returned depth to a system that was nearly drained of talent - in the long run, the team will be better for it.

Now, it may not have been the method we'd LIKE to see the Twins rebuild, but it's hard to argue he's done a bad job rebuilding. He's just handled it in a different way. I have a hard time trying to penalize him just because he's more patient than I am.

Mike Sixel · September 9, 2014

I'll ask again, how many 90 loss seasons before the GM or manager or both are not good at their job?

jokin · September 9, 2014

I'll ask again, how many 90 loss seasons before the GM or manager or both are not good at their job?

Well.... now the three teams that have been nearly universally disparaged by our TD community, for varied combinations of gross mismanagement and flagrant insensitivity towards their fanbase, have lapped the Twins on the field. Like the Twins.... the Cubs, Astros and Marlins had three straight seasons from 2011-13 with 90+ losses, and all three are more clearly back on track than the Twins and have demonstrated marked W-L improvement in 2014, the Twins, not so much. I'm hoping that "stay the course" and "help is on the way" won't be the catch-phrases for the 2015 Twins, as they desperately try to avoid a "Five-Peat", but I'm not holding my breath

James Richter · September 9, 2014

It took Bill Smith 4 years to completely flush away all the good things TR had spent a decade+ building. Shouldn't TR get at least that much time to try to put things back together?

Kwak · September 9, 2014

It took Bill Smith 4 years to completely flush away all the good things TR had spent a decade+ building. Shouldn't TR get at least that much time to try to put things back together?

Are we back to this myth? This issue has been addressed several times before and doesn't need repeating. Basically Smith was "a company guy" who ran errands, wrote reports, and signed documents for the whole rest of the Front Office (that stayed after Ryan "stepped-down") and Field management (Gardenhire et al).

old nurse · September 9, 2014

I'll ask again, how many 90 loss seasons before the GM or manager or both are not good at their job?

Answer how do you find even middle of the road pitchers? How do you predict injuries? How do you predict development curves for your minor league players? How does changing a manager win more games with the same group of players?

drjim · September 9, 2014

Are we back to this myth? This issue has been addressed several times before and doesn't need repeating. Basically Smith was "a company guy" who ran errands, wrote reports, and signed documents for the whole rest of the Front Office (that stayed after Ryan "stepped-down") and Field management (Gardenhire et al).

This strikes me more as your opinion than reality.

drjim · September 9, 2014

I want a new manager because this organization has come to expect losing. Nobody...not the players, not the fans, not the GM, not the coaches, and not the manager, expects to win. It becomes a habit, or a culture. Losing.

I want a new voice, from outside, who expects to win,and goes about trying to make that happen because he knows his job depends on it. A manager looking to make a name for himself, rather than one trying to hold on for dear life because of the past.

A manager who will embrace new ideas, maybe even come up with a few of his own, rather than resist change at every opportunity.

The Twins should have changed managers already, certainly by last winter. It's inevitable. Putting it off farther into the future only reinforces in everyone's mind the perception this organization is a losing one.

Ron Gardenhire had his time, and he was once the right choice. But that time is over. He'll be fine. Move on.

Concur 100%. I can't agree more. It is time.

TheLeviathan · September 9, 2014

Answer how do you find even middle of the road pitchers? How do you predict injuries? How do you predict development curves for your minor league players? How does changing a manager win more games with the same group of players?

Whose arguing that the sole reason to change managers is to win more games?

This is the same tired scarecrow this topic gets into every time. Do I hope it could result in more wins? Sure. But the reason to move on is more symbolic - so can we be done with this and drop that line of questioning?

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