Sorting Through the 2015 HOF Ballot

Can't see it for Mussina. He won 270 games playing for 8 years for a team that won very consistently. 

If Bert took 15 years to get to the Hall after the trashy teams he spent much of his time pitching for then Mussina will only get in as a Yankee star, not a real career All-Star.

I'd like to hear a good argument for Jack Morris being a better pitcher than Mike Mussina.

I'd like to hear a good argument for Jack Morris being a better pitcher than Mike Mussina.

There isn't one.

Schilling ERA+ 127, his WAR 83.2

Mussina's ERA+ 123 (exclusively in the AL...and not only that, the AL East), his WAR 82.5

Smoltz ERA+ 125, his WAR 78.7

Glavine's ERA+ 118, his WAR 64.3

Morris ERA+ 105, his WAR 52.5

Yeah, you can argue Mussina 270 wins. Hey, how many wins did Pedro have? What is the criteria. Dominance (ala Morris). Longevity (ala Kaat). Have a medical procedure named after you (John). You can argue that Mussina (and Schilling) are on the edge, maybe a "Veterans Committee: inductee, but that group hasn't done too well in their opportunity to reward players overlooked by the writers. We don't want it to be a Hall of Fame of the Very Good, although there are a fair share of those guys in the Hall already, but it should recognize a few more players with distinct accomplishments (why isn't Oliva in the Hall, please).

Yeah, you can argue Mussina 270 wins. Hey, how many wins did Pedro have? What is the criteria. Dominance (ala Morris). Longevity (ala Kaat). Have a medical procedure named after you (John). You can argue that Mussina (and Schilling) are on the edge, maybe a "Veterans Committee: inductee, but that group hasn't done too well in their opportunity to reward players overlooked by the writers. We don't want it to be a Hall of Fame of the Very Good, although there are a fair share of those guys in the Hall already, but it should recognize a few more players with distinct accomplishments (why isn't Oliva in the Hall, please).

I agree with most of that.  Not the dominance part in regards to Morris, or Oliva being deserving, but overall I agree we want it to be the Hall of Fame.  Problem is, everyone has their view on where the line of very good and great meet.  Mussina, IMO, belongs.  I don't even care about the Wins/Loss stat for pitcher, so, for me, it has nothing at all to do with that.

In my mind Mussina was kinda the Halladay before Halladay. Funky straight arm delivery. Threw about 12 different flavors of junk, nothing straight. If he was a lefty they would have called it "cunning and guile." One of these guys who you are reading the paper one day and looking at the AL pitching leaders and there's Mussina among the top in ERA and IP and then you realize you've seen his name there every year for the past 10 years. A no doubt HoFer in my mind.

yeah, here’s a guy who finished in the top 10 in ERA+ 11 times in a 17 year span ’92-’08. 7 of those 11 times, he was top 5.  All this while pitching in the AL East against the best offenses in the game.

I have to join the others who were not enamored by Mussina.  I cannot put him above Kaat or Tommy John and I would not vote for them.  I like the controversy and continual tear letting that keeping Rose, Jackson, Bonds, and Clemens out causes and their exclusion is okay.  

Piazza would have joined the four that were elected.  That would have been my ballot.  Good, even a short period of great is not what I want in the hall, but then I would vacuum up a few plaques that are already there.

A player like Griffey - next year is easy and that is what I want in the hall.  As much as Raines is a sabermetric darling, he was just an all star in his day and not considered an all time great.

I have to join the others who were not enamored by Mussina.  I cannot put him above Kaat or Tommy John and I would not vote for them.  I like the controversy and continual tear letting that keeping Rose, Jackson, Bonds, and Clemens out causes and their exclusion is okay.  

 

Piazza would have joined the four that were elected.  That would have been my ballot.  Good, even a short period of great is not what I want in the hall, but then I would vacuum up a few plaques that are already there.

 

A player like Griffey - next year is easy and that is what I want in the hall.  As much as Raines is a sabermetric darling, he was just an all star in his day and not considered an all time great.

Well, he was better than Tommy John and Kaat. Those two are comparable to each other, with John beinga little  better and Mussina being quite a bit better than both. 

Problem is when you let lesser pitchers in, some even first ballot, it makes it harder to say a guy like Mussina shouldn't be in. That's what has happened.  Mussina's biggest problem is that he was never flashy, he just went about doing his job professionally and didn't push for the spotlight, but he was as good as Smoltz if not better, better than Glavine and better than many others that are in.

So why don't we simply elect players to the HOF while they are active?  I think the final career body of work is meant to be an important factor.  Other factors disagreeing with this criteria being too important: the 5 year waiting period, up to 10 years of ballot eligibility (formerly 15), and the very-low 5% bar for continued eligibility.

 

And face it: many players in the HOF, including several elected recently, were not considered all-time greats while active (i.e. Blyleven).  Or may have been considered such only briefly/erroneously (Rice, Sutter).

People like to compare Raines to Rickey, but there's another person who might be a better fit for comparison.

Raines finished his career with a .385 OBP, a .425 SLG and a 123 OPS+ in 10,359 PA

Gwynn finished his career with a .388 OBP, a 459 SLG and a 132 OPS+ in 10,232 PA

Raines scored 1,571 runs and drove in 980

Gwynn scored 1,383 runs and drove in 1,138

Raines stole 808 bases and was caught 146 times

Gwynn stole 319 bases and was caught 125 times

B-ref WAR has Raines at 66.2, good for 97th all-time. It has Gwynn at 65.3 wins, 102nd place all-time.

the one real difference between him and Raines was hits. Raines had 2,605 hits and Gwynn had 3,141. That’s a difference of 536. However, Raines had 1,330 walks to Gwynn’s 790, a difference of 540.