Rockies 1, Twins 0: The Offense Gets Shut Out by Márquez’s Gem

terrydactyls · June 25, 2022

I dislike a metrics based analysis of baseball and there is a perfect example of why in the article above. "Kirilloff's fly out in the second left his bat at 98.9 MPH." So what? If he had hit it 68.9 MPH, maybe it would have dropped in. An out is still an out no matter how hard you hit the ball. And yes I know the arguments about how much better it is to hit it hard, but good contact can be seen with the good old eye test.

Five minute major · June 25, 2022

Leading the majors in being shutout while playing in arguably the weakest division in MLB proves that offense is the overwhelming issue with this team. Well, that is next to brutal head coaching and the worst conditioning/trainers in baseball. I don't see light at the end of the tunnel with any of these issues with current management/coaches.

Squirrel · June 25, 2022

1 hour ago, jmlease1 said:

I just came by the game thread to see how people would find a way to blame this loss on the manager. I was "rewarded". People, you can't put this one on the manager. You just can't. The team got 3 hits. Three! If you're going to hang this loss on the manager, then you're lost in a forest of mirrors. They only had 2 baserunners once in the entire game. The offense just didn't show in this game, and the worst defensive team in baseball (that's the Rockies) made several fine plays in the field (couple of nice catches on deep drives, turned some DPs, only one error that ended up meaning nothing).

Tough loss, but nice to see Bundy pitching well. Glad to see Thornburg and Duffey getting used and pitching well; we can't afford to have anyone in the bullpen we're afraid to use, so maybe this gives some confidence.

Bard definitely looks like someone worth looking into at the deadline to improve the bullpen. It seems unlikely that the Rockies will be competing for the playoffs and should be selling. Will he be able to sustain this all year? Unclear; he's always been a little wild (and is still walking plenty this season) and it's fair to wonder if he can continue to have the best season of his spotty career at 37, but he hunts Ks enough that he should be worth taking a long look at.

BPOTT

(Best Post Of The Thread)

jmlease1 · June 25, 2022

2 hours ago, Mark G said:

Yup, like being able to go more than 60 pitches when he was doing great.

was he, though? he got outs efficiently overall, but in his last inning he gave up 2 hits and walk and it was definitely looking like the Rockies were starting to figure him out. The 3rd trip through the lineup was definitely looking shaky. Since the bullpen pitched a shutout the rest of the way, I'm confused how anyone can say this was a bad decision?

ashbury · June 25, 2022

The offense got 3 base hits, and posters are analyzing how the manager screwed up this game by failing to thread some imaginary needle. /edit - lol, serves me right for not reading the thread all the way through this time - jmlease1 said the same.

I have no way of quantifying this, but my impression is emerging that this team's batters are adept at hitting "mistake" pitches, which is of course true to a degree for all batters who've reached the majors, but have tilted their approach at the plate so much to exploiting this that they are helpless when the pitcher gives them a series of offerings that demonstrate command and good control. Thus, the feast-or-famine, depending on whether the opposing pitcher is "on" that night. And the string of post-season failures, where they meet the teams with pitchers much less likely to have "off" nights.

Then again, we see certain of our hitters swing through center-cut fastballs repeatedly. So my theory is still in a formative stage. But there is a qualitative difference between our squad and the better teams, regardless of the overall averages seen on the stat pages that say ours is an above-average hitting team.

wabene · June 25, 2022

@jmlease1 I admire your courage, lol.

Hosken Bombo Disco · June 25, 2022

A lot of posters are rallying to the defense of Rocco and rightly pointing out the lack of offense last night, but I gotta side with @Nashvilletwin and @Mark G and others this time, I think Rocco miscalculated on a chance to manufacture a run in the 8th after the Jeffers lead off walk.

Dan Gladden pointed it out about the same time I started thinking it. In short, pinch run Buxton and ask Celestino to bunt.

Or to take it one further— my preference— ask Celestino to bunt, and if the sacrifice is successful and Jeffers makes it to second with one out, then that’s when you insert Buxton as a pinch runner.

If Buxton is healthy enough to pinch hit, and presumably leg out a double, then I assume he is healthy enough to run the bases for an inning or score from second on a single. I actually didn’t see the Arraez fly ball if it would have been deep enough to get Buxton to third with two outs.

Rocco seemed better with Shelton as his wingman. It’s little opportunities like this that have been missed since then. I’m sure Rocco is doing fine and executing the plan in other ways besides game situations. And In no way was this the overriding reason the Twins lost last night.

Squirrel · June 25, 2022

21 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

A lot of posters are rallying to the defense of Rocco and rightly pointing out the lack of offense last night, but I gotta side with @Nashvilletwin and @Mark G and others this time, I think Rocco miscalculated on a chance to manufacture a run in the 8th after the Jeffers lead off walk.

Dan Gladden pointed it out about the same time I started thinking it. In short, pinch run Buxton and ask Celestino to bunt.

Or to take it one further— my preference— ask Celestino to bunt, and if the sacrifice is successful and Jeffers makes it to second with one out, then that’s when you insert Buxton as a pinch runner.

If Buxton is healthy enough to pinch hit, and presumably leg out a double, then I assume he is healthy enough to run the bases for an inning or score from second on a single. I actually didn’t see the Arraez fly ball if it would have been deep enough to get Buxton to third with two outs.

Rocco seemed better with Shelton as his wingman. It’s little opportunities like this that have been missed since then. I’m sure Rocco is doing fine and executing the plan in other ways besides game situations. And In no way was this the overriding reason the Twins lost last night.

Sorry, but this seems to be working quite hard to put blame on one person. If you have to work that hard to create scenarios where he should have done things differently, for a different outcome, it's a lot of guessing and supposing because you don't know if the outcome would be the same or not. It's just ridiculous. If you have to work that hard to prove this loss was on the manager, it probably wasn't on the manager and are just looking to blame Baldelli. This loss is quite simple for one who watched most of the game. The Twins batters didn't come through, plain and simple.

Hosken Bombo Disco · June 25, 2022

14 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Sorry, but this seems to be working quite hard to put blame on one person. If you have to work that hard to create scenarios where he should have done things differently, for a different outcome, it's a lot of guessing and supposing because you don't know if the outcome would be the same or not. It's just ridiculous. If you have to work that hard to prove this loss was on the manager, it probably wasn't on the manager and are just looking to blame Baldelli. This loss is quite simple for one who watched most of the game. The Twins batters didn't come through, plain and simple.

I’m pretty sure I said the offense was to blame.

These are scenarios that many of us fans play in our heads, in real time, as it’s happening. It is not ridiculous at all to question why the Twins didn’t bunt in that inning. I am not manufacturing anything. Why do you assume I am? Why do you assume we are?

wabene · June 25, 2022

18 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I’m pretty sure I said the offense was to blame.

These are scenarios that many of us fans play in our heads, in real time, as it’s happening. It is not ridiculous at all to question why the Twins didn’t bunt in that inning. I am not manufacturing anything. Why do you assume I am? Why do you assume we are?

This is true and your right part of the fun of being a fan is going over these scenarios. Notice I said fun. To me it is not fun to read statements like "this loss is 100% on Rocco" etc. If every comment is a vehicle to blame Baldelli I will stop taking said poster seriously. Or if every post leads to how statistical analysis is ruining the game. That's just obstinate. I don't mind some comments questioning in game decisions or the limits of analytics, that can be interesting. The game changes over time and has cycles. Watching Kepler start to hit the other way and Arraez putting so many balls in play is great and good for the game. I do agree that some trends in the game are not my cup of tea. I just love it when a guy like Kepler pokes one through the shift. (Why did it take so long for him to make these changes?) I welcome some more small ball. Maybe the Twins do bunt last night and it works. Wouldn't be their first such play this year. Doesn't mean they win they game.

As I read through the comments on this article it was depressing. Not as bad as the Strib and some good points were made, but the thread was lacking in nuance or balance. The same narrative hammered home. Might have discouraged more positive posters from weighing in and offering something different.

Doctor Gast · June 25, 2022

Really enjoyed Cody's article, so much that I was looking forward to see Marquez pitch tonight. Although I wasn't impressed by his lack of SOs, he seemed to keep MN hitters off balance. Great pitching all around and lack of small ball on MN part in a close game. There are some games where the offense don't show up, managering small ball is the game chnger. Not only blaming Baldelli because there are many in this boat. I'm just saying you need to be flexible to adapt to the game as it evolves and how it plays out. Of course if it hasn't been practiced, it's hard to execute. So maybe have a special session to do so.

Marquez is a prolific pitcher with a great GB% who has been having a down year. Therefore his trade value is down. Marquez is a good fit with this defense and Bard would be a very good rental option for closer. With FO dragging their feet trying to low ball OAK for Montas, now they have to reverse their attention to Marquez. A Marquez & Bard trade would be reasonable, sooner FO finalize a trade the better.

Hosken Bombo Disco · June 25, 2022

37 minutes ago, wabene said:

This is true and your right part of the fun of being a fan is going over these scenarios. Notice I said fun. To me it is not fun to read statements like "this loss is 100% on Rocco" etc. If every comment is a vehicle to blame Baldelli I will stop taking said poster seriously. Or if every post leads to how statistical analysis is ruining the game. That's just obstinate. I don't mind some comments questioning in game decisions or the limits of analytics, that can be interesting. The game changes over time and has cycles. Watching Kepler start to hit the other way and Arraez putting so many balls in play is great and good for the game. I do agree that some trends in the game are not my cup of tea. I just love it when a guy like Kepler pokes one through the shift. (Why did it take so long for him to make these changes?) I welcome some more small ball. Maybe the Twins do bunt last night and it works. Wouldn't be their first such play this year. Doesn't mean they win they game.

As I read through the comments on this article it was depressing. Not as bad as the Strib and some good points were made, but the thread was lacking in nuance or balance. The same narrative hammered home. Might have discouraged more positive posters from weighing in and offering something different.

Excellent points, and maybe I need to do a better job keeping up with the game recaps. Haranguing the manager is a time-honored baseball tradition but yeah I can see how people take it way too far in this day and age.

rv78 · June 25, 2022

"Watching Kepler start to hit the other way"

Sorry but this is laughable. How many times did he hit the other way last night when there was only 1 person playing between 2nd and 3rd base? I'm pretty sure it was Zero. Looked to me like everyone was looking to pull the ball into the seats instead of trying to manufacture a run or two. Whos' fault is that Rocco?

rwilfong86 · June 25, 2022

3 hours ago, Five minute major said:

I don't see light at the end of the tunnel with any of these issues with current management/coaches.

Sadly I think you are absolutely correct.

TheLeviathan · June 25, 2022

This thread is a monument to the fact that complaints about endless, baseless bitching about Rocco isn't "fabricated".

Ir's a disease this forum is rampantly infected with.

rv78 · June 25, 2022

5 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

I just came by the game thread to see how people would find a way to blame this loss on the manager. I was "rewarded". People, you can't put this one on the manager. You just can't. The team got 3 hits. Three! If you're going to hang this loss on the manager, then you're lost in a forest of mirrors. They only had 2 baserunners once in the entire game. The offense just didn't show in this game, and the worst defensive team in baseball (that's the Rockies) made several fine plays in the field (couple of nice catches on deep drives, turned some DPs, only one error that ended up meaning nothing).

Tough loss, but nice to see Bundy pitching well. Glad to see Thornburg and Duffey getting used and pitching well; we can't afford to have anyone in the bullpen we're afraid to use, so maybe this gives some confidence.

Bard definitely looks like someone worth looking into at the deadline to improve the bullpen. It seems unlikely that the Rockies will be competing for the playoffs and should be selling. Will he be able to sustain this all year? Unclear; he's always been a little wild (and is still walking plenty this season) and it's fair to wonder if he can continue to have the best season of his spotty career at 37, but he hunts Ks enough that he should be worth taking a long look at.

Unfortunately not putting this loss on the Manager would be a big mistake. It's not like they were ever out of the game due to the score being lopsided. He had just as much of a chance to win it in the 9th as any other inning but failed to even TRY to manufacture a run. How many times did he try to advance a runner? Zero. How many times did he try a hit and run? Zero. How many times did he try to steal a base? Zero. How many times did he try to get a guy into scoring position in any way, shape or form? Zero.

A teams play is a direct reflection of the Manager, win or lose. Why do you suppose managers get fired? Is it because they DON'T have an influence on how their team plays? If that was the case there would never be one that gets fired.

Craig Arko · June 25, 2022

13 minutes ago, rv78 said:

A teams play is a direct reflection of the Manager, win or lose. Why do you suppose managers get fired? Is it because they DON'T have an influence on how their team plays? If that was the case there would never be one that gets fired.

Public relations moves to appease the unrealistic expectations of a fan base?

jmlease1 · June 25, 2022

4 hours ago, wabene said:

@jmlease1 I admire your courage, lol.

hahaha, I'm also someone who thinks that people generally overrate the impact of managers on a team generally. Rocco's not worth losing your mind over.

Nashvilletwin · June 25, 2022

Geez, let’s not be so touchy everyone. I’m sorry for pointing out that we didn’t move a single lead off batter on first over, despite having 5 opportunities in the first 8 innings in a close one run game. That’s a managerial decision. It didn’t work out. I didn’t say fire Rocco or that he’s an idiot or that he’s a bad person. I just said that his strategy did not work and he has to be held accountable for that. After all, it’s his call. The Rockies successfully hit and run with one out and a guy on first - who made it to third on the play and then scored the winning run on a infield grounder fielders choice.

I’m sorry if it upsets some of you that some of us would like to see the Twins, who have been shut out a league leading number of times and seem to struggle to score runs some nights, try to use a bit more small ball to manufacture a run or two in tight, low scoring games. It’s just an opinion from someone who watches every game and cheers hard for the Twins at all times. I think we all want to the same thing - to see the Twins win! It’s ok to disagree about the manner in which we hope to see that accomplished.

Riverbrian · June 25, 2022

5 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

A lot of posters are rallying to the defense of Rocco and rightly pointing out the lack of offense last night, but I gotta side with @Nashvilletwin and @Mark G and others this time, I think Rocco miscalculated on a chance to manufacture a run in the 8th after the Jeffers lead off walk.

Dan Gladden pointed it out about the same time I started thinking it. In short, pinch run Buxton and ask Celestino to bunt.

Or to take it one further— my preference— ask Celestino to bunt, and if the sacrifice is successful and Jeffers makes it to second with one out, then that’s when you insert Buxton as a pinch runner.

If Buxton is healthy enough to pinch hit, and presumably leg out a double, then I assume he is healthy enough to run the bases for an inning or score from second on a single. I actually didn’t see the Arraez fly ball if it would have been deep enough to get Buxton to third with two outs.

Rocco seemed better with Shelton as his wingman. It’s little opportunities like this that have been missed since then. I’m sure Rocco is doing fine and executing the plan in other ways besides game situations. And In no way was this the overriding reason the Twins lost last night.

The idea of bunting in that situation could have been an interesting post game discussion.

However... There is absolutely no chance of an interesting discussion taking place without providing matches to the burn the witches crowd.

It's like water pouring into your basement.

When the shop vac is useless... it's time to move.

Halsey Hall · June 25, 2022

The radio announcers kept making a point that the Twins hadn’t won back to back games for a long time, as if this would be it against the lowly Rockies. Truth is that defines this team, it’s just not good.

Craig Arko · June 25, 2022

4 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

The idea of bunting in that situation could have been an interesting post game discussion.

However... There is absolutely no chance of an interesting discussion taking place without providing matches to the burn the witches crowd.

It's like water pouring into your basement.

When the shop vac is useless... it's time to move.

Or bring in a good sump pump.

Riverbrian · June 25, 2022

2 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

This thread is a monument to the fact that complaints about endless, baseless bitching about Rocco isn't "fabricated".

Ir's a disease this forum is rampantly infected with.

Game Of Thrones GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

	MON	TUE	WED	THU	FRI	TOT

Smith	0	0	21	26	0	47
Duran	0	27	0	17	0	44
Pagán	0	17	24	0	0	41
Cotton	0	11	28	0	0	39
Jax	0	27	7	0	0	34
Duffey	0	0	0	0	28	28
Thielbar	0	0	15	12	0	27
Thornburg	0	0	0	0	7	7

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