How Can Rocco Baldelli Regain Twins Fans Favor?

3 hours ago, Wizard11 said:

So back to point #1.  Fans are most likely to support your management philosophy and style if it actually works.

So true. In 2019 Rocco let his team bomb away and the Twins 101 games. I wasn't on this site then but I highly doubt there were many people calling for him to be terminated during or after that season. Fast forward to today and the Bomba Squad and the juiced ball are gone. Has Rocco changed to manufacturing runs, bunting, hit and run, stealing bases, hitting to the opposite field, sacrificing runners over, or is he still waiting for the 3 run homer? I think we all know the answer. 

I'm not sure what he could do, maybe he could try using more analytics?

8 hours ago, Captain18s said:

How about a steal, a bunt, or a hit and run to create some runs and excitement instead of waiting for the 5 run homer every night. I also do not think the team is sound fundamentally. These guys have been playing baseball for over 20 years. No excuse for such lack of base running skills and fielding mistakes. Watch the good teams.

Bunts don't create runs. They create outs. 

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

They pretty much finished where non-fans projected them to this year. I'm not sure how they underachieved. And that was with assuming they wouldn't lose their top 5 outfielders all at the same time for most of the second half of the year.

My dear, most respected TDer - do you honestly think Rocco et al got the most of this team this year because they finished about where they were projected by the talking heads? Please point out one area where Rocco as the manager performed at or above expectations/requirements.  Here’s a list of criteria (with my POV) for judging the manager’s performance that might help you:

1. Team plays sound fundamental baseball day-in and day-out. (A resounding no on this one).

2. Vis-a-vis his opponent managers, the manager’s in-game decisions result in more wins than losses on average. (He had his moments, but certainly not, and certainly not against the better teams).

3. Players play up to their potential and continued their  development/growth through the season. (There are some examples both positive and negative here).

4. The team plays with confidence against stronger, contending type teams. (Nope and we added our division foes the Guardians to the teams with whom we have a mental block).

5. The manager has the trust and respect of his team. (No reason to suspect not, but it’s not clear given how he’s managed the pitching staff; none of us really know this one).

6. The manager has built a quality team of coaches and other staff. (Best coach left mid-season, 3B was a disaster, and the training staff doesn’t appear to be up to snuff).

7. The manager promotes a culture of accountability, starting with himself and his staff. (Given the undisciplined play, hard to see that this is a plus).

8. The manager makes sound decisions in terms of sticking with or pivoting from core strategies as circumstances dictate. (Don’t see much creativity on this front).

Honestly, where has he performed, let alone outperformed? This team pretty much ended up not where they were expected to finish, but more in line with the manager’s performance. If a mid-market team wants to contend, they have to outperform in several areas - and the most important one to kick off that success is the manager’ performance. It’s extremely hard, if not impossible, for a mid market team to overcome a mediocre manager. 

5 hours ago, Mark G said:

I am not sure if this will be considered going off topic or not, because it is more general, but I couldn't disagree with you more about one point.  The manager of a baseball team has as much or more control over games than most football coaches.  He makes decisions on virtually every pitch, much less who plays, who plays where, where they hit in the lineup, when changes are made, shifts.......I could go on for a while.  Even if the decision is to let someone else make the decision (allowing a catcher to call pitches, giving the green light to runners and letting them decide, etc.) the decisions are his.  He will tell a coach how aggressive to be or how careful.  He sends the signs to the field through his coaches, and again, I could go on.  How you can believe that the manager, of any team, doesn't have the most impact is beyond this extremely humble observer's mind set, but you are certainly entitled to believe it.  

And it is not just the one run games folks are concerned about.  The team scored 3 runs or less in approx 47% of the games this year.  That is where small ball comes in; manufacturing a run now and then or, in our case, not manufacturing one, has made a difference in way too many games.  And I know I am older and think more old school, but fundamentals are knowing how to bunt, run the bases, throw to the right base under each circumstance, hit and run, steal..........some people refer to it as small ball.  How would I know if a team has good fundamentals if they don't do so much of the above because the analytics say not to?  I can only speak for this extremely humble observer, but I have not seen these fundamentals during this tenure.  

I think you're wrong about the impact of a baseball manager vs. a head football coach, if for no other reason than substitutions. Football coaches can sub players in and out of a game, and in baseball once a guy comes out, they're done. When you can do something more often, it becomes a tool of greater influence. But beyond that, do you really think baseball managers are making decisions on every pitch?

I still maintain that people overrate the impact of the manager on wins & losses based on the in-game decisions we think we see. but the other part of my point is we also think that there are still wild swings in differences in quality between managers for in-game decision-making as well. We get hung up on the things that make us personally crazy and assume that a different guy (maybe someone already working for another team) will do better. And I just think that the difference between the worst managers and the best is smaller now than it's ever been, and most of them fall into a mucky middle, where they rise and fall with the health & ability of their players.

The last 4 managers of the MN Twins have all been named Manager of the Year. Two were subsequently fired. Rocco could be #3, but I'm not all that sure he's appreciably worse now than he was in 2019, unless you think he's personally causing the twins' run of injuries...

I gave up reading the comments after page 1.  The title of the article was "How Can Rocco Baldelli regain fans favor."  The comments through the bottom of page 1 we're nothing more than the same complaints I've read all year.  It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree, but all I read were suppositions, demands, and contradictory statements.  I think the proper end to this entry is to quote every TV cop who is at the scene of a major accident:  "Just move along folks.  Nothin' to see here."

5 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I haven't seen one person on this site or in daily life that say/type don't use analytics. Also haven't seen anybody say Rocco has ruined the game. You are generalizing the fans that are unhappy with the results for the last few years with broad sweeping stereotypes.  Which is not dis-similar from those that say the Twins are doing exactly what other teams are doing while leaving out the facts that the Twins are at the far end of the spectrum of the all teams.

To be honest I don't think anybody is really asking the Twins to play a different style of baseball, I believe what people are asking to incorporate things when situation calls for it. When your team is struggling with its offense try to manufacturer a run now and then or instead of always looking for the big inning try to steal a run now and then.

Also claiming 2021 was some sort of rebuilding year is just false, and the Twins basically spending more than they ever have and trading prospects away in 2022 means it also wasn't a rebuilding year but this has more to do with the FO than the manager.

As for fundamental baseball, IMO that has more to do with hitting the cutoff, throwing to the correct base, running the bases, and generally not looking like a little league team in the field and bases. Sure being able to actually bunt a ball, execute a hit and run, or a sacrifice fly could be considered small ball but sometimes it is called for in a close game.

I'm using some hyperbole to be sure. But considering how often the complaint of how "Rocco only manages by computer" and variations thereof keep popping up in threads (and not just threads like this that actually are here to discuss the manager), I don't think I'm out of line for it.

Some people are definitely asking the Twins to play a different style of baseball, though. There are consistent demands for the starters to be left in games longer, period. Demands for the team to bunt more and "manufacture runs" (which clearly translates to a different approach). explicit requests for the game/lineup/decisions to be done more on "feel" and less by analytics. that's not a different style?

Finally, I'm not really sure where you get the idea I said that 2021 was a rebuilding year. I said clearly that we were expected to contend from the jump in 2021 and then the team collapsed (through early bullpen implosions and then a deluge of injuries), causing major disappointment. I called 2022 a re-loading year, NOT a rebuilding one as well.

48 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

I gave up reading the comments after page 1.  The title of the article was "How Can Rocco Baldelli regain fans favor."  The comments through the bottom of page 1 we're nothing more than the same complaints I've read all year.  It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree, but all I read were suppositions, demands, and contradictory statements.  I think the proper end to this entry is to quote every TV cop who is at the scene of a major accident:  "Just move along folks.  Nothin' to see here."

I will give it a shot...

How can Rocco Baldelli regain fans favor?

Win.

Nothing else will sway the haters.  Even then, I don't know.  Haters gotta hate.

Let the starters pitch longer.  4.8 innings per start doesn't sound much different than the average of 5.2, until you realize that's a difference of 65 innings over the course of the season on the bullpen.

More importantly the team needs to show improvement in the fundamentals.  Fielding, baserunning and making contact at the plate are all lacking.

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

They pretty much finished where non-fans projected them to this year. I'm not sure how they underachieved. And that was with assuming they wouldn't lose their top 5 outfielders all at the same time for most of the second half of the year.

Exactly. And why did people pick them to finish third? The rotation and bullpen question marks. The rotation was terrible and so was the bullpen. Nobody predicted the Twins would have the worst injury luck in MLB. But everyone knew Bundy and Archer were not going to be quality starters. 

3 minutes ago, Boom Boom said:

Let the starters pitch longer.  4.8 innings per start doesn't sound much different than the average of 5.2, until you realize that's a difference of 65 innings over the course of the season on the bullpen.

More importantly the team needs to show improvement in the fundamentals.  Fielding, baserunning and making contact at the plate are all lacking.

You really want Dylan Bundy and Chris Archer to pitch longer into games? Pagan first time through the order is better than Bundy the third time through the lineup. "Twins starters have allowed a .305 batting average and .523 slugging percentage when facing hitters for the third time in a game this season, which is especially terrible considering they’re typically only allowed to stay in when they’re rolling. By comparison, their most-maligned reliever, Emilio Pagán, has allowed a .261 batting average and .498 slugging percentage."

https://theathletic.com/3571064/2022/09/09/twins-pull-starting-pitchers-early/

by allowing his starters throw more than 70 pitches and 5/6 innings!!!!!! managing with less analytics and more GUTS!!!!!!!! Twins are soft until they toughen up they're going to continue to get their asses handed to em! how do you get tough? by allowing adversity (to struggle) only way to get tough!!!!! OLD SCHOOL, these guys like baldini are millennial puke pansies! he needs to go old school or get the hell out!

He’s not consistently solid with in-game decisions in close games…hasn’t been from day 1. Masked by superior lineups, exposed with an average lineup…and against good teams. It’s really the FIRST and highest priority for a manager to be good at. Anyone can take 24 hours to interpret the data and come up with the best batting order and bullpen plan for tomorrow’s game. But then the game HAPPENS.

I don’t hold out much hope for him in this capacity. Unfortunately.

11 hours ago, Captain18s said:

How about a steal, a bunt, or a hit and run to create some runs and excitement instead of waiting for the 5 run homer every night. I also do not think the team is sound fundamentally. These guys have been playing baseball for over 20 years. No excuse for such lack of base running skills and fielding mistakes. Watch the good teams.

I’m not being snarky—if this is the style of baseball you want to watch, you should switch to college baseball. 

First off, the Twins need to actually give the fans a team to root for, meaning spending more than 20th in league spending!!!  Secondly, how the F do they not steal a base, let alone move a man over with a bunt???????????  Thirdly, I'm EXTREMELY disappointed in pulling a pitcher after 75 pitches=ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  A pitcher will tell you when he is tired or....the hitters will tell him, screw the "analytics" now used in baseball, baseball is baseball, don't overcomplicate it!!!!!  Lastly, base running was a joke!  I'd rather though have a guy get thrown out, putting the defense on it's heals though, and getting thrown out, but what I generally saw this season was horse dung!

There, that should just about sum it up!  Oh wait!  I forgot about trading for players, namely pitchers, that are HURT!!!! Duh!!!  Don't the Twins have medical doctors, let alone scouts, to figure this out???!!!

Manage the Yankees to a world championship.

How can Rocco regain Twins fans favor? 

Win.

But even that won't change opinions already entrenched in some people's minds. But imploring him to "win" is so simplistic. He needs the players to be good enough to WIN. Again, rather simplistic. Too simplistic. 

There IS talent on this roster, and talent still arriving, and soon, as well as still developing. I.E., the young arms in particular, who seldom if ever arrive as a finished product. A couple solid moves to augment what is already here and better health than the almost historical amount of injuries actually makes this a pretty good team.

Look, I like Rocco as a person, but I'm no defender of his. Personally, I think he's a pretty average manager at this point.  Can he adapt and learn and grow? Hopefully. 

On the positive side of things, I think his players like working under him. Since he's been in charge, the clubhouse has largely been a harmonious one. Other than some comments made by Shoemaker after he was gone, I've never heard a single player speak ill of Rocco, or the FO for that matter. And I don't buy that the players don't play hard or "give up". I've seen too many games, including this season, where they lost to better teams but still showed effort and took some of those games to extra innings by battling back. 

We have to remember,  back up and AAA or AAAA players are what they are at times, because they aren't as good, or not good enough YET, to be regulars. When you play lesser talent, you get poorer results.

But there is, IMO, a definite poor side to Rocco as a manager. I believe some of the basic fundamentals of good defense, throwing to the right base, backing up properly, running the bases properly, are things that ARE in control of a manager and his staff. Should players...good players...already know that stuff? ABSOLUTELY! But that doesn't mean good, sound, fundamental baseball can't or shouldn't be drilled and worked on. And I don't mean being a drill sergeant on days off or pre-game, I just mean continuing to work on and do the basics and improve on them. That's on the manager and his staff and I don't think there's been enough of that.

Small ball is not an answer, to those who miss it. As pointed out previously, bunts lead to outs. Stolen bases only work when you have guys who can be successful at least 75% of the time. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't times when a bunt is a good strategy. Leon pulled off a couple great bunts once he came to us, because he knows how to. (It's a lost art really). And when your team is struggling to score, or advance runners from 2B, YES, it's OK for the manager to call for a bunt or play some hit and run once in a while. But it's not going to be a daily strategy, nor should it be, and not only does the situation matter, but so does the guy up to bat. Not much worse than a SO throw out type of scenario to kill an inning. 

The ML average of a SP is 5.2 IP. The Twins were 4.8. That's a full IP difference. Not good. But when Archer and Bundy are in your rotation, and you're brining up rookies and AAAA starters your hands are going to be tied. A healthier and stronger rotation allows 5-6 IP and not 4-5 IP. That's not on Rocco.

NOW, I DO AGREE that Rocco has pulled a SP having a very good performance too early at times. I understand the 3rd time through an order numbers, as well as a reliever having a clean inning. The numbers are there to prove those approaches. But there ARE times to trust in that SP having a really good day and at least sending him out to see. And if anyone didn't notice, he's given Gray and Ryan both increased opportunities to go 6 or more the second half of the year. And Ober was cruising against the Dirty Sox recently and went 7. Load management is one thing, but sometimes, yes, you trust your guy and let them at least start the extra inning.

I think Rocco has positives as a manager and is OK. Not great, but OK. I think just feeling the flow of the game and letting his starter get a longer shot once in a while would be good. I think trying a bunt or hit and run once in a while in a close game, or with the offense struggling is worth a shot to shake things up. And I ABSOLUTELY believe he and his staff should run drills here and there and just focus on the nuances of the game not being performed properly. 

He's not a great manager. But he can get better by using his experience as a player and do a better job of just "feeling the flow" of the game and drilling in the important daily parts of how to play sound baseball.

I don't know how you evaluate the coaches. For every "throw your hands up" send from Watkins at 3B, there's been at least as many aggressive moves that were smart and paid off. But we really don't see what they all do, much less how well they do it. No offense to Tingler, but is he really the right guy to have Rocco's ear? After Shelton left and Bell passed away, I've been concerned about the bench coach situation. How much input does Rocco have in coaching decisions? Again, I don't know. But he DOES have control of how things are run.

He doesn't have to, and really can't, change how the Twins play ball. But he DOES have the ability to take charge to work on the basics that have seemed lax at times. And he CAN trust his "player" gut more in regard to trying a few things once in a while to "make something happen". Those are the things in his control to be better at his job, hopefully help the Twins win a couple more close games, and MAYBE, gain back fan support.

4 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Rocco wouldn't wear Kelly’s zubaz

FTFY

1 hour ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

1) 100% agreed, however this isn’t 100% on Baldelli and his staff. The players get 12 to 18 years of coaching before Baldelli gets his hands on them. You can’t undo a decade in one spring training.

2) again 100% agreed, but I think you may weight this one more than I do. See 8

3) 100% agreed

4) go back to 2019 and I think you saw a 100 win team that over achieved during the season against better teams. They ran out of gas in the post season, but during they absolutely played it up.

5) Agreed

6) Im skeptical that Baldelli had free reign to hire his staff and am certain he had little to no say on the medical staff. I don’t think this gets attributed to Rocco at all.

7) if you acknowledge not knowing the clubhouse, how can you presume to know this one?

8 ) Agreed, however I can’t imagine he has much room to be “creative” either. Look at the roster he was handed… zero flexibility. His pitchers were all short inning options. All injuries waiting to happen. What kind of lineup could he reasonably construct against a lefty? Most importantly, have you worked in a matrixed decision making company before? There is nothing more micro-managed stifling than the never ending barrage of cross functional team meetings.

”what happened during the 6th inning Rocco? Why didn’t you stick to plan?” 

While I agree with you on most every point, I don’t come to the same conclusion. I don’t love the manager. He’s fine. I don’t know of any better options reasonably available and I don’t think there are significant things in Baldelli’s control that could make a big change in how fans view him.

Fair enough with all your comments. Most importantly, I agree that Rocco does not have ultimate control over all of the staff or the levers he can pull.  So any underperformance related to those areas must fall on the FO.

Rocco is likely to stay. I hope he gets better as a manager, particularly in a lot of the areas referenced above. I’m only trying to take an objective look at his performance relative to what his job description might call for. I stand by my hypothesis that a mid-market team will struggle to contend with a mediocre or worse manager.  

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

If you finish with the record most predicted, you pretty much met expectations. That's the definition of meeting expectations. No place did I say or imply anything else. Not even a little. I have no idea if he should be retained, I was merely pointing out that they met expectations.

Fair enough. Your point is valid - the team met (some - maybe most - people’s) expectations. I was only trying to point out that such an accomplishment was reached with mediocre or worse performance by the manager.  Or, perhaps, maybe Rocco met expectations too.

Btw, I truly meant what I said when I wrote “Dear, most respected TDer”. Your comments are good and always worth reading.

2 hours ago, dex8425 said:

Exactly. And why did people pick them to finish third? The rotation and bullpen question marks. The rotation was terrible and so was the bullpen. Nobody predicted the Twins would have the worst injury luck in MLB. But everyone knew Bundy and Archer were not going to be quality starters. 

You could actually argue that due to the above average amount of injuries, a fine managing job was done to meet the original expectations. 

Rocco, to me, is such a small part of the problem.

The problem is with roster construction, ability to develop consistently, and deviate from a plan if it isn't working.

You could say Rocco has a hand in all of them...but it feels like it's an org philosophy, not just a manager's