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  • Dealing with Wheeler Gets Minnesota an Ace


    Ted Schwerzler

    This offseason the Minnesota Twins chief focus is going to be on acquiring impact pitching. The front office has suggested as much, and with most of the lineup positions spoken for, it’s where spending money makes sense. Jose Berrios is the only returning arm at this point, and despite getting substantial levels of consistency from the group last year, Rocco Baldelli is going to need a unit that can raise the bar.

    Image courtesy of © Wendell Cruz-USA TODAY Sports

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    Everyone knows what the top of the market will look like. Gerrit Cole is going to command a return that could make even Mike Trout and Bryce Harper blush. He’s been nothing short of exceptional, just turned 29-years-old, and may still have another gear to reach. There’s no guarantee that Stephen Strasburg becomes the second premiere arm, but logic suggests he’ll opt out of the final four years and $100 million of his current deal. Every team in baseball should be tripping over themselves to offer these guys a payday. If the Twins aren’t in on them it’s a problem, but if they get turned down anyway, they’ll need to pivot.

    For the sake of this argument let’s assume that Derek Falvey offers either of those pitchers a blank check and neither takes the bait. All is not lost with Zack Wheeler still being in the picture. He’s not the arm either of those pitches is, and he is older than Cole, but the former Mets hurler may be the most underappreciated talent looking for a new home.

    A former first-round pick, Wheeler has been a model of consistency when healthy. In his three full seasons he’s pitched at least 180 innings with strong strikeout numbers and an ERA firmly in the mid-3’s. For New York in 2019 his ERA crept up to a 3.96 mark, but the 3.48 FIP suggests he was likely victimized by one of the worst defensive teams in baseball.

    Over the course of his career Wheeler has avoided the long ball and kept baserunners to a minimum. He’s not going to challenge for the league lead in strikeouts but the 195 in 2019 was a new career high. With the Mets he was consistently a 10% whiff rate thrower, and he’s expanded his chase rates each of the past two seasons. With an average fastball of 97.1 mph this past season, Wes Johnson should be salivating at the opportunity to take him to the next level.

    You can bet that the Twins have done a decent amount of background work on Wheeler already. They were in talks with Brodie Van Wagenen regarding Noah Syndergaard, and there’s no doubt that Zack’s name likely was added into the mix. Now costing only dollars, he doesn’t come with the price tag of coveted pieces from within the system. The ability to add a starter with his repertoire and upward projectability is a rare scenario, and one that Minnesota can’t miss on.

    Paying for pitching on the open market is largely a landmine of failed opportunity. Teams either find themselves looking to overextend for the best option or having to settle for a patchwork piece that doesn’t fit the mold. Developing pitching is the greatest path to sustainable success and being able to acquire someone like Wheeler who provides a fair mix of pay and future potential looks like a slam dunk.

    Gerrit Cole or Stephen Strasburg represent the outlier opportunity to add one of the 5-10 aces in baseball to your staff. Someone like Wheeler gives the Twins an avenue to have two aces of their staff and allow them to battle each other for that top spot.

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    My guess is he will get more than that. He got $10m over two years knowing he would only be pitching one of those years. I bet he could get at least 2/$15M coming off a healthy year.

    Possibly. And I'm willing to go higher. But am considering injury history and the suspension.

     

    And the first year was $2M just to rehab.

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    You also pointed out how bad the Samardzija trade was, even though it is exactly the kind of trade you think they should make, so I'm not really sure what you think. Forgive Van and I if we are confused at this point.

     

    How did you conclude I am a proponent of a Samardzija type trade? In general, I don't like trading multiple players with multiple years of control for a guy who had one year of control.

     

    You also ignored all of the other facts I posted which is by far the more relevant information. In other words, you completely avoid the hard evidence with refutes the validity of the strategies you support. I welcome you to list all of those $150M+ contracts signed by teams of a similar profile and top prospects traded by them.

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    You're putting words in my mouth. I never said it was a requirement to spend a certain amount of money to be a WS contender. They need to target talented starting pitching, preferably 3 really good starters. It will take courage, determination, and perhaps taking on a larger contract than usual to get it done.

    I've been following along with the discussion and your posts. I still haven't read a plan on what you would do to fill 4 spots in the rotation.

    All I've seen is an overwhelming amount of things the Twins shouldn't do because of their revenue constraints. Shouldn't go after big free agents because Yu didn't work for 1.5 seasons. Shouldn't trade prospects for established starting pitching because the Samardzija trade didn't work out.

    I'm asking you to take off your financial consultant hat for a second. Simply lay out some realistic ideas how the Twins can improve the rotation. You've made your point very clear about the finances of this team.

     

    For starters, I am not putting words in your mouth. I used your exact quote. Perhaps you were making more of a conceptual statement but it definitely did not read that way.

     

    I have said I would start by trying to get Cole. If that happened I would sign Wheeler / Bumgarner / or Odorizzi in that order. If I could get that done I would figure out the rest between our prospects, come back candidates or maybe even Perez or Pineada if financially feasible. This might not be much better during the regular season but better in the playoffs.

     

    If I could not get Cole, I would target two of Wheeler / Bumgarner / or Odorizzi and the 4th spot to Pineada. Anderson if I could not get two of those three. The fifth spot would go to Dubnak / Smeltzer or  Graterol.

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    How did you conclude I am a proponent of a Samardzija type trade? In general, I don't like trading multiple players with multiple years of control for a guy who had one year of control.

     

    You also ignored all of the other facts I posted which is by far the more relevant information. In other words, you completely avoid the hard evidence with refutes the validity of the strategies you support. I welcome you to list all of those $150M+ contracts signed by teams of a similar profile and top prospects traded by them.

     

    I thought you had posted that they should trade from their surplus (not elite) prospects for a SP (not one year, that part is different).....so maybe I confused you with someone else. Kind of hard to keep it all straight.....

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    I thought you had posted that they should trade from their surplus (not elite) prospects for a SP (not one year, that part is different).....so maybe I confused you with someone else. Kind of hard to keep it all straight.....

     

    No. I said that I don't believe as some here do that "impact" SPs can be acquired for our surplus 45-50 FV prospects. However, I would be all-in if we could get a SP with at least 2 years control for that type of prospect. No worries though ... It's hard to keep straight all the ideas thrown around here.

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    I'm gonna keep it real. I would take Wheeler or Bumgarner if they were willing to come here on a shorter term deal like 3 years or something like that. While i would love to have Cole or Strasburg or Scherzer I also believe in the philosophy that Beggers can't always be choosers ;)

    Edited by laloesch
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    I'm gonna keep it real. I would take Wheeler or Bumgarner if they were willing to come here on a shorter term deal like 3 years or something like that. While i would love to have Cole or Strasburg or Scherzer I also believe in the philosophy that Beggers can't always be choosers ;)

     

    what if it takes four years? 

     

    I agree there is no chance they sign Cole, and I bet the Nats extend Strasburg.

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    what if it takes four years? 

     

    I agree there is no chance they sign Cole, and I bet the Nats extend Strasburg.

     

    I guess it comes down to how much they are willing to pay and what either player will take (assuming they are willing to come to the TCs) and whether or not that 4th year could be a team option year since we are speaking in the hypothetical.

    Edited by laloesch
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    what if it takes four years? 

     

    I agree there is no chance they sign Cole, and I bet the Nats extend Strasburg.

     

    Cobb got 4 years. If not for the strong swing toward shorter contracts, you would think those guys are 4 years for sure. I still think Wheeler and Bumgarner get 4 years but I am not taking any bets. The key is can they sign these guys to 4 years and keep a team around them. I believe they can. Cruz (12M) comes off next year. We will feel his loss but that money can be allocated to Arb increases. Gonzales comes off after the 2021 season. Rosario probably has to be traded but we have a couple good replacement candidates close. It would also help to get a pre-arb replacement for Cron either this year or next.

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    Cobb got 4 years. If not for the strong swing toward shorter contracts, you would think those guys are 4 years for sure. I still think Wheeler and Bumgarner get 4 years but I am not taking any bets. The key is can they sign these guys to 4 years and keep a team around them. I believe they can. Cruz (12M) comes off next year. We will feel his loss but that money can be allocated to Arb increases. Gonzales comes off after the 2021 season. Rosario probably has to be traded but we have a couple good replacement candidates close. It would also help to get a pre-arb replacement for Cron either this year or next.

     

    Agreed on all of this, which is why I'm in on not bringing Cron back.....Cruz is so good that he partly makes up for the drop off in starting a rookie in place of Cron, then next year if Cruz is gone (or at least not as good) that rookie is no longer a rookie.....

     

    And I can't see how they keep Rosario around, not with as many minor league OFers as they have, not at what arbitration salaries will require as time goes on. Probably next year, but not after that I'd guess.

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    Here is their payroll assuming a $50M budget for FA pitching and arbitration estimates from MLB Trade Rumors. I am sure this is not the exact 26 man roster that will roll out next spring but this exercise helps in determining the financial feasibility of any moves. They could also keep Rosario and Cron but I would rather they trade Rosario this off-season if possible. They have plenty of options for LF. 

     

    Starters
    1 Jose Berrios 5,400,000
    2 FA / SP #1
    3 FA / SP #2
    4 FA / SP #3
    FA SP TOTAL 50,000,000
    5 Lewis Thorpe 555,000
    6 Randy Dubnnak 555,000
    Devin Smeltzer 555,000
    Brusdar Graterol 555,000
    Jordan Balazovic
    Bailey Ober
    Johan Duran
     
    Relief Pitchers
    6 Taylor Rogers 3,900,000
    7 LH / FA 6,000,000
    8 Tyler Duffey 1,100,000
    9 Trevor May 2,100,000
    10 Zack Littell 555,000
    11 Sam Dyson
    12 Ryne Harper 555,000
    13 Randy Dobnak 555,000
    13 Cody Stashak
    13 Fernando Romero
    13 Trevor Hildenberger
    13 Sean Poppen
     
    Catchers
    14 Willians Astudillo 560,000
    15 Mitch Garver 575,000
    Ryan Jeffers
     
    Infielders
    16 Ehire Adrianza 1,900,000
    17 Luis Arraez 555,000
    18 C.J. Cron 7,700,000
    19 Marwin Gonzalez 9,000,000
    20 Jorge Polanco 3,883,333
    21 Miguel Sano 5,900,000
    Nick Gordon N/A
     
     
    Outfielders
    22 Byron Buxton 2,900,000
    23 Jake Cave 572,500
    24 Max Kepler 6,250,000
    25 Eddie Rosario 8,900,000
    Alex Kirilloff
    Trevor Larnach
    Brent Rooker
    26 DH - Cruz 12,000,000
     
    TOTAL PAYROLL    133,080,833

     

    Edited by Major League Ready
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    Here is their payroll assuming a $50M budget for FA pitching and arbitration estimates from MLB Trade Rumors. I am sure this is not the exact 26 man roster that will roll out next spring but this exercise helps in determining the financial feasibility of any moves. They could also keep Rosario and Cron but I would rather they trade Rosario this off-season if possible. They have plenty of options for LF. 

     

     

      Starters   1 Jose Berrios 5,400,000 2 FA / SP #1   3 FA / SP #2   4 FA / SP #3     FA SP TOTAL 50,000,000 5 Lewis Thorpe 555,000 6 Randy Dubnnak 555,000   Devin Smeltzer 555,000   Brusdar Graterol 555,000   Jordan Balazovic     Bailey Ober     Johan Duran           Relief Pitchers   6 Taylor Rogers 3,900,000 7 LH / FA 6,000,000 8 Tyler Duffey 1,100,000 9 Trevor May 2,100,000 10 Zack Littell 555,000 11 Sam Dyson   12 Ryne Harper 555,000 13 Randy Dobnak 555,000 13 Cody Stashak   13 Fernando Romero   13 Trevor Hildenberger   13 Sean Poppen           Catchers   14 Willians Astudillo 560,000 15 Mitch Garver 575,000   Ryan Jeffers           Infielders   16 Ehire Adrianza 1,900,000 17 Luis Arraez 555,000 18 C.J. Cron 7,700,000 19 Marwin Gonzalez 9,000,000 20 Jorge Polanco 3,883,333 21 Miguel Sano 5,900,000   Nick Gordon N/A               Outfielders   22 Byron Buxton 2,900,000 23 Jake Cave 572,500 24 Max Kepler 6,250,000 25 Eddie Rosario 8,900,000   Alex Kirilloff     Trevor Larnach     Brent Rooker   26 DH - Cruz 12,000,000         TOTAL PAYROLL    133,080,833

     

     

    Dobnak is so good he gets paid twice! * Those number jibe with what I've seen elsewhere, give or take....I'd really like an experienced catcher behind Garver also.

     

    * I think, and hopefully you see this as humor.....

    Edited by Mike Sixel
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    Dobnak is so good he gets paid twice! * Those number jibe with what I've seen elsewhere, give or take....I'd really like an experienced catcher behind Garver also.

     

    * I think, and hopefully you see this as humor.....

     

    Sorry. I could not make up my mind if he was a Sp or RP and left him in both places. I started to write that I would let Rosario go and get a catcher. Maybe even try to bring back Castro.

     

    * Is is possible to upload an image?

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    By what standard was Darvish really good? The guy implodes at the drop of a hat, his ERA was 3.98 in the NL, he led the league in HRs allowed, he loses the strike zone and is to me a headcase.

     

    I did not want him when everyone was talking about him and I certainly can't take any talk about coming here now. He is not the kind of guy I want on the mound in the postseason at Yankee Stadium. They'd need to put him in a straightjacket.

     

    A resounding NO on Darvish

    By what standard was he good? WHIP<1.10 K/9>11.5 xFIP 3.39. 45% GB rate. Numbers were killed by likely unsustainable hr/fb of 22%.

     

    In the post season, he's had 3 good starts and 3 poor. line ups are good come October.

     

    We all get you never liked Darvish, but you don't have to disparage a good pitcher who had a sneaky good year, who'd be a prime candidate to improve with better luck on fb and Buxton roaming center in target field. Didn't Odo lead the league in HR 2 years ago?

     

    More to the point, our decision makers like him.

    Edited by Jham
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    By what standard was Darvish really good?

    Darvish really turned things around at midseason this year. Second half 2019, he was basically among the elite SP performers in all of MLB.

     

    In the context of the post to which you were responding, about who would have been our top starters entering the 2019 postseason, it makes sense to say Darvish would have been there.

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    In the post season, he's had 3 good starts and 3 poor. line ups are good come October.

    I'll add that Darvish was basically solid across his first 4 career postseason starts. The Astros figured out he was tipping pitches and picked him apart in his last 2. Presumably he's corrected that since, like countless others have done before him.

     

    The Astros did the same to Tyler Glasnow in the playoffs this year, but I'd love to have him going forward too!

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    By what standard was he good? WHIP<1.10 K/9>11.5 xFIP 3.39. 45% GB rate. Numbers were killed by likely unsustainable hr/fb of 22%.

    In the post season, he's had 3 good starts and 3 poor. line ups are good come October.

    We all get you never liked Darvish, but you don't have to disparage a good pitcher who had a sneaky good year, who'd be a prime candidate to improve with better luck on fb and Buxton roaming center in target field. Didn't Odo lead the league in HR 2 years ago?

    More to the point, our decision makers like him.

    Over the last two seasons he has pitched to a 4.16 ERA in 218 innings with an 7-11 record.  Not impressive.

     

    He is coming into his 33 year old season and has tons of miles on that arm from when he pitched in Japan.  You can feel however you want about him, but he isn't all that and a bag of chips.  And for the contract that he got he is a huge disappointment.

     

    I do not want to see him in a Twins uniform.

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    I'll add that Darvish was basically solid across his first 4 career postseason starts. The Astros figured out he was tipping pitches and picked him apart in his last 2. Presumably he's corrected that since, like countless others have done before him.

     

    The Astros did the same to Tyler Glasnow in the playoffs this year, but I'd love to have him going forward too!

     

    28.1 innings pitched in the post season with 27 hits allowed,  home runs and a 5.81 ERA.  Tyler Glasnow is 25 and isn't arbitration eligible for another four years.  I will take him over Darvish any day of the week

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