Fact or Fiction: The Twins Way Didn't Work for Matt Shoemaker

None of us have enough first hand knowledge to know the real story.  But thanks for all the information, Matt.

What concerns me is whether or not the Twins are trying to get all pitchers to focus on some of the same things, ie,, throw X pitch high in the zone, throw more sliders, etc.  Every pitcher is different, would expect the best staff would be one that gets the most out of each pitcher based on his individual strengths.

Excellent write-up, Matthew. Well-researched and fair-minded. A home run.

I think this story hit some of us hard because it fits one of the fear narratives we have about this organization under Falvey/Levine and Baldelli/Johnson - that they've got a dogmatic approach, they think they're the smartest people in baseball, and they pay more attention to numbers than to players.

Plus, us fans have been hit hard by the reality that the team we had dreamed of seeing win a championship is now breaking apart and sinking to the bottom of MLB. "We had a 100-win pace ballclub for two years and all I got was this lousy AL Central Division Title T-Shirt."

But, as some cooler heads have posted here, it is possible that the Twins can adjust quickly. It is possible that some of the problems are internal, but some are maybe from the new players themselves and some are just a matter of terrible luck with regard to injury and recovery. And as you note here, in the case of Shoemaker, maybe it's all three.

That said, the Twins better be very open to criticism. They've traded away top players, they've given away new young stars for absolutely nothing, and, outside of Cruz, their FA signings performed terribly. They've got a lot of fair criticism coming this offseason - from fans and from players within the organization. Time to listen and to learn some hard lessons now.

The only way Shoemaker was misused was by not pulling sooner when it was apparent he was not pitching well.

For example in a start against KC he allowed 9 runs in 1/3rd of an inning and in a relief appearance against the White Sox, 8 runs in 2.2 innings.

A manager needs to protect players from this level of failure by pulling them from the game sooner. 

Certainly part of the issue is usage rate of the slider.  The other part at least as important (and perhaps more important) is location.  Notice his change/split had more accuracy and purpose previously with two hot locations at the knees and lower/left quadrant whereas now his location is middle thigh-high...that's a problem.  His sinker used to be outer half and now it middle and all over the place...also a problem.  It's possible that the slider usage took him out of his comfort zone, hurt his confidence and impacted location of other pitches.  We can hope that's the case so that now he'll not only reduce usage of the slider, but pitch more effectively overall.

A topic I look forward to post-Berrios trade is the building of a playoff-caliber rotation.  I think it's smart to sign for 1 year veterans with rebound potential or injury prone to compete for starts with young guys for the #4/#5 spots in the rotation.  However we gotta have 3 spots locked in like we did to start this season.  If the FO thinks we're at least a couple of years out then do they let Pineda walk and just promote all the top prospects next year?  If things are looking good for a couple of them the Twins then get active after the 2023 season?  If that's the case why even keep Maeda - except to prevent STH'ers like me from bailing?  Perhaps they think this is a "correction" rather than a recession for the team and instead got very good return on a pitcher they weren't going to be able to sign and will be aggressive in the FA market after the 2022 season to contend in 2023.

I am not sure what to think.  Likely some truth to both sides.  In the recent past the Twins seemed to have some success getting a little more out of relievers they picked up from the garbage pile and made them better thinking Harper and Wisler. It seemed like maybe they helped Maeda and Pineda but they were always pretty good pitchers before they came over. Hill and Baily didn't look that great with us granted coming back from injury and obviously Colome, Happ and Shoemaker only got worse once with the Twins.  It certainly doesn't seem like this is the place to become a better pitcher at the MLB level. At least looking at the latest data that I can tell.

Yeah Berrios was home grown and several of my examples are guys that are past their prime and likely due for regression but still the fact remains they didn't squeeze anything extra out of them and most guys got worse not better.  I don't think this is just a Twins issue though as lot's of players stats fluctuate year to year often due to injury of just plain getting older and less effective.  However, teams that do a better job like Tampa end up in better positions. Even Tampa can't fix every guy that comes through their system but they seem better than maybe any other team in the league at getting the most out of guys that come through IMO. 

I do still feel like the Twins have improved their pitching development in the minors.  You look at other teams affiliates and we are generally getting better pitching out of our teams.  Pitching talent is bubbling up to AA and AAA whether it tranlates to MLB is another story but it looks good to this point to me.

Obviously the Twins wanted Shoemaker to do things he wasn't comfortable doing.  That isn't always a bad thing as it can sometimes lead to untapped potential but trying to teach an old dog new tricks doesn't generally work out well.  AAA is way different than MLB so his stats there don't mean too much to me. The one thing I did notice the few times I did watch SHoemaker on MLB gameday app is that he often would get 0-2 or 1-2 and then throw something right down the middle of the plate that generally got crushed.  Saw the same behavior from Colome from time to time.  I get that you have to throw strikes to get guys out but why not work the corners more when ahead like that?

Anyway like I said probably truth to both sides but let's face it Shoe was never going to be a top of the line pitcher.  He was always 5th starter material at best.  I think it is time for both sides to move on.  Glad he is pitching well and maybe he can get a gig somewhere else or maybe he can excel out of the pen hard to say. He just doesn't have anything that looks better than the young number 5's we have already to me though.

I fear our sabremetric FO and manager and coaches all feel that they know more than anyone else.  Old school can be mixed with new and pitchers can be left to do what they feel best with.  I have less than good expectations with this leadership group and I hope I am proven wrong. 

I think Shoe took responsibility merely by taking the AAA assignment and, at the same time, is attempting to show the Twins that he can still pitch, just not their way.  A lot of players would have left and signed a minor league contract with another team, then publicly blamed the team they left once they settled back into a groove.  He stuck it out here, and would actually like to pitch again; to me that is taking responsibility as well as explaining why it didn't work out.  You know, sometimes the fans deserve to hear these things; they are the ones paying to see the stuff we all saw and they wonder why it all went south.  Good luck, Shoe, and don't ever again let a computer tell you how to play baseball. 

Interesting stuff. Lets hope he works it out and makes his way back to the major league roster and pitches well, then we can say "The Shoe" fits. ?

Lot of unknowns here, and I wouldn't expect much information from the twins staff on this issue (there's really no winning for them: if they say "look we didn't tell him to throw meatballs down the heart of the plate and that's what killed him" then they're going to get whacked for bashing a player, and if they say "we wanted to tweak his slider and have him throw it a bit more and he didn't change how he threw it all" then it's a he said/he said where they're talking past each other, etc).

Like most, I'd say it looks like there's some shared blame. I'd weight it slightly more on Shoemaker: a) he's a veteran, b) if he didn't like the sequencing/selection it's not like he couldn't shake it off, and c) the heat maps show the anecdotal impression of him grooving a sinker in the heart of the plate sure is born out on the stats. I also discount the AAA performance to some degree: if a veteran MLB starter can't dominate AAA hitters, then he's either injured or cooked...

I was pleased to see Shumaker go, but I wouldn't mind if he came back and pitched well enough to be part of the rotation, or a reliable reliever.  Wasn't it Corey Kluber who was sent back down to fix his problems? I don't expect Shumaker to react like Kluber, but it would be nice. 

Come to think of it, Glen Perkins earned his share of headlines by complaining about the Twins and how they handled him, and that turned out OK. 

Not all sliders are considered equal... the same as all fastballs are not considered equal... as a Major league ( any)  pitcher you find out what works and use it.. as a team.. you job isn't to try to stick square pegs in round holes...  and a little secret... The Rays Arms vary so much in what they throw.. its not like all their pitchers are slider heavy... and the final thought.. learn how to pitch.. and that starts with control... The throw it somewhere at the box mentality has ruined more pitchers than i can count... please teach them pitching not throwing... and if you don't know how to do that... get a different job..

I liked about every comment here because right or wrong the opinions are just smart!

I applaud Shoemaker for being open and honest and taking at least some responsibility for not performing. He should. But just being a realist, not every single pitcher, or player, "fits" with an organization. We've seen it time and time again. It's reality. The Twins have COMPLETELY revamped their milb system when it comes to treating pitchers and players as individuals and tailoring their developmental approach. And we've heard from current players and previous players in regard to the massive change within the system. 

But I have NO PROBLEM saying Rocco, Johnson, scouts and the FO may have just made a mistake on a guy. They THOUGHT they had a really good plan for an experienced back end SP that would work. Sorry, s**t happens and you aren't always right. But then again, as Shoe states, he could have said no. And he has the right to also shake off signs. And shouldn't he be doing well at AAA as a healthy and experienced pitcher?

But have to admit I'm curious why he took the milb assignment instead of going elsewhere. Makes little sense to me unless NOBODY was knocking on his door.

IF the Twins think think this was bad communication and a mistake that can be rectified, I have no problem. IF Shoemaker really likes the organization,  no problem. We need a couple veteran SP for 2022, which MIGHT include Pineda. But could Shoe, previously quality in his career when healthy, be an option? Please.

Shoemaker is trying to get a contract for 2022 and not really blaming anyone because he doesn't want to rock the boat.  He's at AAA FOR THE MOMENT, because he's a good guy and provides IP. He's probably gone a week from now due to additions and promotions.

Over and done, it was a really smart flier for a talented but frequently injured SP that just didn't fit. 

I hope the Twins take a seriously internal look at themselves and find the truth in what he has said. 

Hopefully this is a "educational moment" for Wes Johnson and the FO. The Rays way, meaning leaning into the variety of strengths of a pitching staff and acquiring as much variety as possible, seems like a better approach than trying to fit every pitcher into the same mould. 

The former regime also had a "fit everyone to the same mould" approach and we all got frustrated with that. 

I look forward to seeing how management responds to this kind of failure and myopia going forward.

He has been released per Dick Bremer on tonight's telecast.