MLB cut minor league teams

[Twodogs]

So MLB cut the minor leagues from 160 teams to 120. Which Twins minors team is going to get hacked? Anyone know?

[yarnivek1972]

If I were a betting man I would guess one of the rookie league levels will be eliminated. So, most likely Elizabethton for the Twins.

[lecroy24fan]

Every plan I've seen has been the short season leagues so it would be Elizabethton, which is a shame as that has been a great affiliate for them.

[h2oface]

Now they can just pay less people horribly. But still horribly.

[Rosterman]

Elizabethton, although they might be able to find life with another team, depending on current state of fields.

 

[Twodogs]

I feel bad for some of those towns that will lose baseball. I think when some of those areas lose baseball I think MLB over the long haul loses fans too. Hope not.

[VivaBomboRivera!]

Another self-inflicted wound by the MLB owners, who don't have a Commissioner with the cojones to tell them they're wrong.  If you want baseball to be the "national pastime," its roots need to go deep down into our soil to reach the bedrock of the country.  If you want talent to bubble up to big stadiums where the naming rights are for sale, you have to drill down to find it, then bring it to the surface through training and experience.

[mikelink45]

More independent leagues - the wish of the MLB teams - they do not have to pay for the development of players. 

[Eris]

What is fundamentally wrong with this is that the major league players association is allowed to represent the minor league players.  The minor league players should be allowed to form their own union.  Of course the major league players union will sell out on the minor league players every time.  

[Richie the Rally Goat]

According to WaPo it’s not a done deal yet. Sounds like MiLB/MLBPA is using the negotiation as leverage to get players paid.

 

Also seems like there’s agreement on 100% long season MiLB leagues.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/04/24/mlb-minor-leagues-move-closer-agreement-reduce-number-affiliates/%3foutputType=amp

[biggentleben]

 

According to WaPo it’s not a done deal yet. Sounds like MiLB/MLBPA is using the negotiation as leverage to get players paid.

Also seems like there’s agreement on 100% long season MiLB leagues.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/04/24/mlb-minor-leagues-move-closer-agreement-reduce-number-affiliates/%3foutputType=amp

Yeah, MiLB squashed this rumor pretty quick with a press release.

[ashbury]

Every plan I've seen has been the short season leagues so it would be Elizabethton, which is a shame as that has been a great affiliate for them.

Elizabethton's attendance has been in the neighborhood of 800 a game, if I recall correctly. The mourning of the loss of the team may be louder than the cheers when they play.

 

[rdehring]

 

Elizabethton's attendance has been in the neighborhood of 800 a game, if I recall correctly. The mourning of the loss of the team may be louder than the cheers when they play.
 

That's not bad for a town of 13,000 people.  Not having any baseball would be a big hole in the life of a good percentage of the local residents. 

 

Hopefully, MLB follows thru with all the talk about keeping some type of baseball in many/most of the 42 towns losing their teams.  Maybe the the APPY league will become a league of players coming out of college who weren't drafted.  Ten teams with 30 man rosters would provide a spot for 300 players to show major league scouts what they have.  Excellent opportunity for players and teams to find one or two players to sign for the following year. 

 

Don't know how the economics would work, but expect MLB teams could provide some type of nominal support.  Maybe each team could have a big league sponsor like the Twins sponsoring E-Town and paying an annual fee.  Perhaps enhance it with a signing fee paid to each team when/if one of their player signs...kind of like what happens with Japan, although a fee of only tens of thousands rather than millions.  Maybe the sponsor team could have some type of right of first refusal on any players signing from their affiliate.  

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'd be a bit more concerned on the developmental side. There's a pretty big gap between rookie leagues and Low A for instance. Some of those players need that space to develop in..

 

In general, this is a really bad idea for the owners. Fixing this problem isn't really all that expensive, which I think is the part that bothers me more about it. 

[SkyBlueWaters]

 

That's not bad for a town of 13,000 people.  Not having any baseball would be a big hole in the life of a good percentage of the local residents.  

 

Exactly right. I saw games in Elizabethton and Chattanooga in 2018. (Saw Kohl Stewart's last start before going up to AAA.) 

 

Elizabethton is tiny. It's a dry town; we found a decent Italian restaurant where the waitress smiled as she told us that if we wanted wine with our meal we could go to a store nearby and bring it in.

 

Fun games between innings, including "hillbilly horseshoes"; toilet seats painted red, white & blue and flung by local cub scouts. Many of the players are Dominican, we listened to locals talking about who was hosting which players. It *is* baseball at a different level.

 

We heard some antipathy toward government; people disliking taxes to host a team functioning for MLB millionaires. But there is real pride, too. 

 

I've heard John Smoltz on MLB Network speak about the need to give minor leaguers time to develop. I found his commentary insightful, pitchers need IP and to work up the ladder; hitters need ABs as they work their way through the system before facing MLB caliber talent.

 

It's a huge step, walking out onto an MLB diamond for the first time. 

[The Wise One]

 

I'd be a bit more concerned on the developmental side. There's a pretty big gap between rookie leagues and Low A for instance. Some of those players need that space to develop in..

 

In general, this is a really bad idea for the owners. Fixing this problem isn't really all that expensive, which I think is the part that bothers me more about it. 

The gulf coast rookie league is not going anywhere.  For that matter there still does not even have to be a loss of players as there are teams that have two teams in the league. There are also teams that have two teams in the Arizona league. Any team should be able to add teams

. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

I'd be a bit more concerned on the developmental side. There's a pretty big gap between rookie leagues and Low A for instance. Some of those players need that space to develop in..

 

In general, this is a really bad idea for the owners. Fixing this problem isn't really all that expensive, which I think is the part that bothers me more about it. 

 

I'm not concerned by this at all.  The Twins could easily run a team (or two) of players too advanced for Academies, but not ready for the GCL or A ball.  They could play games against each other everyday, or work out schedules with the other 8-10 teams that are within a 2 hour drive of Ft Myers.

 

You can argue it would even be better for development--the facilities in Ft Myers have to be much better than Elizabethton, and those players could easily be slotted into Mussels games when needed, giving them better exposure.

[mlhouse]

1.   The economic impact of minor league baseball is minimal.  I think someone stated that the attendance for an Elizabethton game was 800.  I would find that exaggerated from direct observation of Ft Myers Miracle games that probably really average about 800, and that is a bigger city/area and higher level minor league.

 

2. The evolution of the major league draft to a college baseball dominated entry system has shifted the needs of minor league development.  The draft system has gotten better at evaluating players and the players are entering baseball with 2-4 years more experience, older and more advanced than the traditional minor league system is set up for.

 

3.  Again, not to belabor the point, minor league baseball players are not underpaid.  If they were, they would not accept employment as a minor league baseballl player and work somewhere else.  

 

4.  I would expect that the minor league system would consolidate the Rookie ball level into one group that is primarily rostered by high school players and Rookie Ball would become a full season.  Lower A ball would still be full season but would be the entry level for college players.  

 

5.   AS part of the tradeoff of fewer levels, I think teams would expand rosters and play more games with the expanded roster especially after June when the traditional short season started.  The extra games would be slotted after the June draft and include double headers (this would reduce the teams overhead travel costs significantly).  

 

 

[mlhouse]

Another point.  Fair or unfair, any consolidation of the minor league system would make the parent teams more ruthless in cutting players at each level.  I think that this is a long time coming though.  By the time they reach A+ ball in Ft Myers it is pretty clear what players have the skills to advance to the next level.  

[DocBauer]

I could see some sort of academy league for HS kids and DR kids coming to the states to work together for a "rookie" level before graduating to low A ball.

 

Stateside the Twins, and many teams, have 6 affiliates: rookie, advanced rookie, low A, high A, AA and AAA. Is that really too many? I don't think so. There are teams out there that have more affiliates and I could see that being trimmed. Maybe the problem is some of the cities where these teams are located having too low of a population base and too poor of facilities. But baseball is a very different sport than others who function just fine with a draft, a single developmental league or a practice squad.

 

Sure there is "filler" on a lot of milb rosters. Not to sound heartless or mean but the milb system isn't built for them. (Though some break through to be sure), It's about the gradual progress and development of the guys who actually have a chance.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I could see some sort of academy league for HS kids and DR kids coming to the states to work together for a "rookie" level before graduating to low A ball.

 

Stateside the Twins, and many teams, have 6 affiliates: rookie, advanced rookie, low A, high A, AA and AAA. Is that really too many? I don't think so. There are teams out there that have more affiliates and I could see that being trimmed. Maybe the problem is some of the cities where these teams are located having too low of a population base and too poor of facilities. But baseball is a very different sport than others who function just fine with a draft, a single developmental league or a practice squad.

 

Sure there is "filler" on a lot of milb rosters. Not to sound heartless or mean but the milb system isn't built for them. (Though some break through to be sure), It's about the gradual progress and development of the guys who actually have a chance.

there’s been talks of removing the Appy league and standardizing each parent club to the 6 levels while expanding all levels of minor league ball to long season. It doesn’t seem like a huge reduction in games played, just a reduction in teams.

 

I get why the many small towns don’t want to lose their affiliates ball club. I wouldn’t either, but from an mlb perspective, it makes a ton of sense

[DocBauer]

there’s been talks of removing the Appy league and standardizing each parent club to the 6 levels while expanding all levels of minor league ball to long season. It doesn’t seem like a huge reduction in games played, just a reduction in teams.

I get why the many small towns don’t want to lose their affiliates ball club. I wouldn’t either, but from an mlb perspective, it makes a ton of sense

The longer season idea certainly makes sense, but doesn't necessarily work due to the June draft. I am assuming the lower level(s) in this format woukd be constructed of players already in the system, including DR academy players and then cuts and promotions woukd take place after the draft?

 

I think a generalised reduction to 6 affiliates per team makes sense. Not sure how many teams would then be eliminated. Guessing no more than 10-12? As a fan, I can not only live with that, it makes sense from a standardized format for all teams.

 

I completely sympathize with towns that would lose their teams. But while not singly out any town, if you are a small location, with limited support and limited or archaic facilities, you probably just can't support a milb team properly.

 

Forgetting the player salaries for this arguement, with a smaller total number of affiliates overall, I'd be fully in support of mandates in regard to playing conditions and facilities for any franchise to remain so. I'd also be in favor of mandates that might force the parent club to assist with upkeep and improvement.

 

That last point may be hard to negotiate or enforce, but didn't the Twins just last year agree to help with improvements at Elizabeton? Again, putting on my make believe owner cap, wouldn't you want your system and your players to have quality environments to thrive in?

[biggentleben]

 

Sure there is "filler" on a lot of milb rosters. Not to sound heartless or mean but the milb system isn't built for them. (Though some break through to be sure), It's about the gradual progress and development of the guys who actually have a chance.

That said, it's been said that a minor league team is 2-5 guys who matter and the rest of the team is there in order to play catch with them. Without those guys playing catch, the 2-5 guys never develop. There's a reason for those players that is overlooked when folks go quickly to a minimalistic modality of the minor league system.

[h2oface]

 

3.  Again, not to belabor the point, minor league baseball players are not underpaid.  If they were, they would not accept employment as a minor league baseballl player and work somewhere else.  

 

I certainly do not have the same opinion. Not underpaid? People accept being underpaid all the time when they get to do what they love, especially at that young age, and the carrot on the string dangling in front of them every minute of every day is what makes them accept it. The whole "intern" system in all business is based upon working for a pittance, or even nothing, for the dream of "making it", and the explotation is rampant. MLB is no exception. Even with the projected raises for the 2021 season, if there is a next season..... it is still very exploitative, with the dream being the reason they do it, and accept it. Please note the "from" numbers. Even the "Up to" is pathetic.

 

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2020/02/16/mlb-to-raise-minor-league-salaries-for-2021-season/

 

The raises (for 2021) will range between 38 percent and 72 percent. Here are the weekly raises broken down by level:

Rookie and short-season: Up to $400 from $290
Single-A: Up to $500 from $290
Double-A: Up to $600 from $350
Triple-A: Up to $700 from $502
While the raises are nice, it is not nearly enough. This still does not guarantee minor league players a livable wage. As the Associated Press notes, Triple-A players can earn $14,000 for their five-month season and short-season players can earn $4,800 for their three-month season. Minor leaguers are not paid during the offseason or for spring training.

Major League Baseball for years lobbied Congress to prevent minor league players from earning worker protections like a minimum wage and overtime pay, earning a legislative victory last year. The raises are a fraction of what they might otherwise pay in a just society.

 

(I think the meal allowance for this year is $25/day. I don't know what it is next year)

 

 

 

and from the MILB site, for 2020.......

https://www.milb.com/about/faqs-business#11

 

Q. What do Minor League players earn?

A. Minor League Baseball player contracts are handled by the Major League Baseball office. Here are the salary ranges:

First contract season: $1,100/month maximum. After that, open to negotiation.
Alien Salary Rates: Different for aliens on visas as mandated by INS (the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service).
Meal Money: $25 per day at all levels, while on the road.

 

 

There are signing bonuses for some, sure, and it buys many of them away from a valuable education and college, but that is a bonus, and not a salary. I challenge anyone to make it on that pay in this day and age. Add a family that may be starting... and help must come from elsewhere.

[rdehring]

 

The longer season idea certainly makes sense, but doesn't necessarily work due to the June draft. I am assuming the lower level(s) in this format woukd be constructed of players already in the system, including DR academy players and then cuts and promotions woukd take place after the draft?

I think a generalised reduction to 6 affiliates per team makes sense. Not sure how many teams would then be eliminated. Guessing no more than 10-12? As a fan, I can not only live with that, it makes sense from a standardized format for all teams.

I completely sympathize with towns that would lose their teams. But while not singly out any town, if you are a small location, with limited support and limited or archaic facilities, you probably just can't support a milb team properly.

Forgetting the player salaries for this arguement, with a smaller total number of affiliates overall, I'd be fully in support of mandates in regard to playing conditions and facilities for any franchise to remain so. I'd also be in favor of mandates that might force the parent club to assist with upkeep and improvement.

That last point may be hard to negotiate or enforce, but didn't the Twins just last year agree to help with improvements at Elizabeton? Again, putting on my make believe owner cap, wouldn't you want your system and your players to have quality environments to thrive in?

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the 6 teams each team would have be: AAA, AA, Hi-A, A, rookie (GCL) and the sixth their Dominican team?  Is there talk of having the GCL be a full season league?

[rdehring]

Baseball, much like all of America, has a system that continues to enhance the spread between the 1% who make it all the way and the masses.  

 

What is the average draft pool for the first ten rounds?  At least $5,000,000, isn't it?  What if baseball cut the signing bonuses in half and put every one of those dollars into increased salaries for all players.  The top picks would still get huge dollars in excess of $3,000,000 to sign.  The trade-off would be to add $2,500,000 to the salaries of the 160-180 players throughout the organization.  That would add $14,000 to $15,000 to the average annual salary, or nearly double what is currently paid.  

 

Makes sense to me.  Only question is how to get it done?

[mlhouse]

 

I certainly do not have the same opinion. Not underpaid? People accept being underpaid all the time when they get to do what they love, especially at that young age, and the carrot on the string dangling in front of them every minute of every day is what makes them accept it. The whole "intern" system in all business is based upon working for a pittance, or even nothing, for the dream of "making it", and the explotation is rampant. MLB is no exception. Even with the projected raises for the 2021 season, if there is a next season..... it is still very exploitative, with the dream being the reason they do it, and accept it. Please note the "from" numbers. Even the "Up to" is pathetic.

 

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2020/02/16/mlb-to-raise-minor-league-salaries-for-2021-season/

 

The raises (for 2021) will range between 38 percent and 72 percent. Here are the weekly raises broken down by level:

Rookie and short-season: Up to $400 from $290
Single-A: Up to $500 from $290
Double-A: Up to $600 from $350
Triple-A: Up to $700 from $502
While the raises are nice, it is not nearly enough. This still does not guarantee minor league players a livable wage. As the Associated Press notes, Triple-A players can earn $14,000 for their five-month season and short-season players can earn $4,800 for their three-month season. Minor leaguers are not paid during the offseason or for spring training.

Major League Baseball for years lobbied Congress to prevent minor league players from earning worker protections like a minimum wage and overtime pay, earning a legislative victory last year. The raises are a fraction of what they might otherwise pay in a just society.

 

(I think the meal allowance for this year is $25/day. I don't know what it is next year)

 

 

 

and from the MILB site, for 2020.......

https://www.milb.com/about/faqs-business#11

 

Q. What do Minor League players earn?

A. Minor League Baseball player contracts are handled by the Major League Baseball office. Here are the salary ranges:

First contract season: $1,100/month maximum. After that, open to negotiation.
Alien Salary Rates: Different for aliens on visas as mandated by INS (the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service).
Meal Money: $25 per day at all levels, while on the road.

 

 

There are signing bonuses for some, sure, and it buys many of them away from a valuable education and college, but that is a bonus, and not a salary. I challenge anyone to make it on that pay in this day and age. Add a family that may be starting... and help must come from elsewhere.

 

 

If they are doing "what they love", then they are for sure not underpaid.  

 

I don't want to get into this issue again, but the fact is you cannot be exploited if you have choices.

 

When you choose between job offers, you use all of the factors related to the job:  compensation, location, benefits, future promotions, uniforms, etc, etc, etc and make a totally subjective decision based upon your other alternatives.   

 

If you are a high school player drafted one of the alternatives is to go play college baseball.  If you are a college player drafted, one of the alternatvies is to stop playing a game and get on with your life, perhaps earn or use your college degree to start your professional career.

 

The other fact is, if you do not pay enough then you will not get enough labor productivity which is both quantity and quality.  If you are Walmart paying lower wages your labor will have lower productivity even though in general Walmart rarely lacks for job applicants.  

 

The economic fact for baseball considering raising their minor league base salaries is that they are probably not getting enough labor productivity.  I think the quantity is there, in other words they are getting enough players nterested in playing professional baseball.  But, baseball is losing to other sports in the competition for athletic talent.  

[biggentleben]

 

Baseball, much like all of America, has a system that continues to enhance the spread between the 1% who make it all the way and the masses.  

 

What is the average draft pool for the first ten rounds?  At least $5,000,000, isn't it?  What if baseball cut the signing bonuses in half and put every one of those dollars into increased salaries for all players.  The top picks would still get huge dollars in excess of $3,000,000 to sign.  The trade-off would be to add $2,500,000 to the salaries of the 160-180 players throughout the organization.  That would add $14,000 to $15,000 to the average annual salary, or nearly double what is currently paid.  

 

Makes sense to me.  Only question is how to get it done?

 

The top pick in the 2019 draft had a bonus slot number of nearly $9M and top overall selection was paid just over $8M. However, by the 9th pick that draft slot value was under $5M and before the second round was out, the individual slot value was less than $1M.

 

Last season, only the Red Sox had less than a $5M overall draft pool, with the Diamondbacks topping the league with $16M of draft pool funds.

 

Just wanted to give you some perspective on the funds.

 

That said, I do not believe that pulling money from the signing bonuses is where you'll get money for more funds for minor leaguers. That's a whole other discussion, though.

[biggentleben]

 

 

If they are doing "what they love", then they are for sure not underpaid.  

 

I don't want to get into this issue again, but the fact is you cannot be exploited if you have choices.

 

When you choose between job offers, you use all of the factors related to the job:  compensation, location, benefits, future promotions, uniforms, etc, etc, etc and make a totally subjective decision based upon your other alternatives.   

 

If you are a high school player drafted one of the alternatives is to go play college baseball.  If you are a college player drafted, one of the alternatvies is to stop playing a game and get on with your life, perhaps earn or use your college degree to start your professional career.

 

The other fact is, if you do not pay enough then you will not get enough labor productivity which is both quantity and quality.  If you are Walmart paying lower wages your labor will have lower productivity even though in general Walmart rarely lacks for job applicants.  

 

The economic fact for baseball considering raising their minor league base salaries is that they are probably not getting enough labor productivity.  I think the quantity is there, in other words they are getting enough players nterested in playing professional baseball.  But, baseball is losing to other sports in the competition for athletic talent.  

 

Seriously, you need to stop with this. You've got an opinion. You want to convince everyone of your opinion. It quite literally got the previous discussion on minor league pay shut down. Having a considerate, respectful conversation about minor league pay is absolutely possible, and I've had it with people on both sides of the issue around the game.

 

I will tell you that since I did the research for my piece, one of the gentlemen that I talked to who was really hanging on, hoping for a breakthrough chance with a club as an upper-level guy who was a quad-A type but really had good qualities as a future MLB coach or even manager has chosen to leave baseball altogether. The virus caused him not to be paid, which led to him picking up a gig job, and his wife is now pregnant with their first child. Whether he would have been a major league player at all, he was a potentially excellent coach that could have been very valuable to an organization in that capacity, and now he is leaving the game behind.

 

It's not a matter of not getting quality from the product. For one, measuring that quality is not a cut and dry thing, and any person working in a front office will tell you that in their first two minutes of describing evaluating value received from a trade or draft or free agent signing.

[operation mindcrime]

Baseball, much like all of America, has a system that continues to enhance the spread between the 1% who make it all the way and the masses.

 

What is the average draft pool for the first ten rounds? At least $5,000,000, isn't it? What if baseball cut the signing bonuses in half and put every one of those dollars into increased salaries for all players. The top picks would still get huge dollars in excess of $3,000,000 to sign. The trade-off would be to add $2,500,000 to the salaries of the 160-180 players throughout the organization. That would add $14,000 to $15,000 to the average annual salary, or nearly double what is currently paid.

 

Makes sense to me. Only question is how to get it done?

No thanks, Scott Boras