Front Page: A Decade of Greener Grass Ahead for Twins

[Tomj14]

 

How in the world are you all so negative coming off 101 wins, a front office with direction, and a post focused on a ten year sample size.

It comes from this is the same story that was told when it was Sano, Buxton, Kepler, Rosario, Berrios, Gonzo, Romero, and bunch of other prospects that failed (not saying the ones above failed, just the ones that did). This group has had a great regular season and a good one and hopefully another great one this year. But the payroll gods are coming because this group is getting really expensive and nothing (very little) was done to help them get deep in the playoffs before that bill comes due, why would this next group be any different?

[Platoon]

I think the new FO has made some excellent moves in administration and in hiring staff and coaches, and installing a better system that had been in place. Drafting decisions take years to evaluate. I am not as sure I think the cupboard is as full as Ted thinks, but only time will answer that question. This is STILL a team with questionable starting pitching, an average pen, an excellent (at least last year) offense, a bottom of the league defense from the outfield grass to the backstop, and an exceptional defensive OF when all  hands are on deck.

 

As for the perception that the Twins will join baseball in the $100M  FA contract club? That will likely happen. But sadly it will be when the going rate is $125-$150M!

[Reptevia]

The Twins won the Division. They had 101 wins but got smoked by a team with twice our payroll. Winning the division doesn’t move the needle? How about last place? How about 95 losses? All you recliner GM’s are ridiculous. Boo hoo hoo.

[theBOMisthebomb]

The Twins won the Division. They had 101 wins but got smoked by a team with twice our payroll. Winning the division doesn’t move the needle? How about last place? How about 95 losses? All you recliner GM’s are ridiculous. Boo hoo hoo.

Whatever. If you want to be a mindless lemming, so be it. Why insult others with a different vantage point?

[Jham]

All of the negativity is a result of 3 games against the Yankees after winning 101 games. What if the Twins had at least won that home playoff game after dropping the 2 in NY? What if they had gone on to win the second home game and forced a game 5? What if they had won that game and played Houston for the ALCS? Would that have made the "doomsdayer" sign every free agent on the market folks any happier? My guess is no. Are Houston fans happy? My guess is no. Signing Bailey and Hill is perfect. At least wait until its time to count wins and losses again in just a few months before being critical. Then there may be no reason to.

Well actually many practically screamed to add pitching LAST year. FO admitted they didn't know what they had. They said we had to wait and see what Sano and Buxton did (despite 2019 being THE year for the last 5 years). We found out that adding guys via trade wasn't that easy. Many screamed that we needed to add at the deadline or risk wasting an 11 game division lead (we lost that lead) and a 100 win season. We screamed that we should be adding pitching either way because of our expiring contracts and history with FA.

 

Odorizzi accepted a QO that 30 other GMs would have offered. Meanwhile, Gonsalves walked for free, Mejia (top 100s) for free, Hilde free, Burdi free, Rodriguez free, Anderson a nickle. We're darn close to losing Romero, Alcala, and Gordon for nothing.

 

They traded a power-hitting Cf for a pitcher that had recent arm fatigue so close to the deadline they didn't even have time to request a physical.

 

We traded one of the best relievers in baseball period. He signed a reasonable extension. We traded for one of the oldest relievers in baseball. He signed an extension to stay here.

 

We traded away a popular 3rd basement who signed, again with the team that showed they wanted him, for a third less than the utility man we replaced him with. Now we're offering $90 million for a worse third baseman.

 

We could have traded for guys we intended to pursue in free agency and had an inside track on convincing them to stay. Instead we wonder why they want to play elsewhere and feel like our FO isn't committed to winning or paying fair contracts.

 

This sounds like a rip on the current FO. But it's all the same stuff we've seen for 20 years. Santana complained. Hunter complained. Nathan. Dozier. Now Berrios and Buxton.

 

Why reserve credit for the 100 win season? Because the FO has given no credit to the guys that actually went out and won 100 games. Those guys played there hearts out with tired arms, torn ligaments, pulled muscles, concussions... and we didn't get them the breath of fresh air at the deadline. Now we've added no one of significance in FA. We didn't retain Gibby (longest tenured Twin) while we brought back a guy who screwed us with a PED ban and other pitchers with worse profiles. We let 50 Hr walk like it's no big deal. We have thus far given no extensions. We're shopping the vocal leader of the team. And we wonder why no one wants to come here.

 

For the same reasons fans are frustrated, the players have to be frustrated. Why continue playing hard? Playing hurt? What did the 100 wins get them? I mean, they're pros, but they're people first.

[Nine of twelve]

 

Whatever. If you want to be a mindless lemming, so be it. Why insult others with a different vantage point?

Since your second sentence is an insult of others with a different vantage point you should be able to answer the question you ask in the third sentence. Were you aware of the extreme irony here? Did you intentionally use that for the purpose of making a point? Or are you being hypocritical? I honestly can't tell.

[Squirrel]

Okay, everyone ... take a breath ... back to the topic, and not on each other and insults.

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

Jim Thome, remember him? He's Cruz. Carl Pavano, remember him? He's Ordorizi. 

 

I am not saying they shouldn't get credit for signing those guys you named, or having success recently. Most certainly they should get some of that credit. What I am saying is that there isn't any change in the way they go about acquiring players. It is almost exactly the same as previous regimes as of now.

 

As for the coaching hires? Giving them credit for hiring them is enough. I will give the rest of the development props to the actual coaches that made it happen. 

 

If Lewis, Kiriloff, Graterol, Duran, Alcala, etc, etc come up and produce here, then they should get credit 100% for those guys.

 

Buxton, Rosario, Sano, Berrios, Kepler, Polanco, Garver, Rogers,. Thank Terry and Billy. In particular Billy. He had a heck of a run drafting and signing some international guys. 

 

Jim Thome put up less WAR in his run with the Twins than Cruz did just last year.  Cruz was 33rd in WAR in the entire league, despite missing the equivalent of a quarter of the season--Jim Thome when he signed with the Twins was nowhere near the quality of player Nelson Cruz was when signing with the Twins.

 

Odorizzi has also put up more WAR in his two seasons than Pavano did in his entire Twins run.  Over the past two seasons, Odorizzi has accumulated the 24th most WAR of all starters with 300 or more IP, all for a guy who OPS'd .558 in AA as a 22/23 year old last year.

 

Your belief that they're acquiring players in the same way, and therefore are docking them some portion of credit is ridiculous--apparently the only way you're willing to give them full credit is if they sign a massive deal in free agency, or trade multiple prospects for an established star.  This ignores the fact that this is a small portion of team building for a small market team, and guarantees nothing--look at the Phillies who, prior to last season, signed one of the two best free agents available, then traded for the best all-around catcher, who happens to be a 5 WAR player.  What did they get for these moves?  A .500 record, a 4th place finish in the division, and missed the playoffs by 12 games.

 

If you want to give all the credit for development to the coaches, then why are you giving credit to TR/BS for signing/drafting players?  Furthermore, if we agree that the coaches hired by Falvine have driven the development of Garver/Arraez/Polanco/Kepler et al, shouldn't we ding TR/BS for NOT hiring coaches that were able to develop them?

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Jim Thome put up less WAR in his run with the Twins than Cruz did just last year.  Cruz was 33rd in WAR in the entire league, despite missing the equivalent of a quarter of the season--Jim Thome when he signed with the Twins was nowhere near the quality of player Nelson Cruz was when signing with the Twins.

 

Odorizzi has also put up more WAR in his two seasons than Pavano did in his entire Twins run.  Over the past two seasons, Odorizzi has accumulated the 24th most WAR of all starters with 300 or more IP, all for a guy who OPS'd .558 in AA as a 22/23 year old last year.

 

Your belief that they're acquiring players in the same way, and therefore are docking them some portion of credit is ridiculous--apparently the only way you're willing to give them full credit is if they sign a massive deal in free agency, or trade multiple prospects for an established star.  This ignores the fact that this is a small portion of team building for a small market team, and guarantees nothing--look at the Phillies who, prior to last season, signed one of the two best free agents available, then traded for the best all-around catcher, who happens to be a 5 WAR player.  What did they get for these moves?  A .500 record, a 4th place finish in the division, and missed the playoffs by 12 games.

 

If you want to give all the credit for development to the coaches, then why are you giving credit to TR/BS for signing/drafting players?  Furthermore, if we agree that the coaches hired by Falvine have driven the development of Garver/Arraez/Polanco/Kepler et al, shouldn't we ding TR/BS for NOT hiring coaches that were able to develop them?

 

No, as it pertains to drafting/developing/trading I will give them credit when one of the guys they traded for, or one of the guys they drafted does something for the big league club. 

 

For sure you can ding TR for not being able to produce players. 100%. I'm not saying I liked him either. But to dismiss that the guys that he and BS drafted or signed internationally are the ones driving the success of this club now isn't seeing the full picture either.

 

What I am saying is that this FO is NO DIFFERENT in the way they go about acquiring players. It is basically a page out of the Terry Ryan playbook. Sign washups, make minor trades and rely on your system. It's really no different and if last years trade deadline and this year's offseason don't show that, I don't know what will.

 

Do I think these guys are implementing things organizationally that are good, successfull, will bear fruit? Yes, I sure do. 

 

What I don't like though is the same process they are using to add to the core of players they have here now. It is like 2006 or 2010 all over again. Great core of players, then add bandaids and bubble game to try and plug obvious holes. Basically, I want them to take a chance to be GREAT.

 

 

[MMMordabito]

 

I am not as sure I think the cupboard is as full as Ted thinks, but only time will answer that question. 

 

Wade Leblanc could be the staff ace, Trevor Hildenberger could be the closer, Blake Swihart could be the #3 hitter and this article would have still been written.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

It is difficult to predict the future success of any player. Plus all of us get old and as players age, their skills decline eventually. Plus injuries are inevitable. It's a hard knock life.

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

No, as it pertains to drafting/developing/trading I will give them credit when one of the guys they traded for, or one of the guys they drafted does something for the big league club. 

 

For sure you can ding TR for not being able to produce players. 100%. I'm not saying I liked him either. But to dismiss that the guys that he and BS drafted or signed internationally are the ones driving the success of this club now isn't seeing the full picture either.

 

What I am saying is that this FO is NO DIFFERENT in the way they go about acquiring players. It is basically a page out of the Terry Ryan playbook. Sign washups, make minor trades and rely on your system. It's really no different and if last years trade deadline and this year's offseason don't show that, I don't know what will.

 

Do I think these guys are implementing things organizationally that are good, successfull, will bear fruit? Yes, I sure do. 

 

What I don't like though is the same process they are using to add to the core of players they have here now. It is like 2006 or 2010 all over again. Great core of players, then add bandaids and bubble game to try and plug obvious holes. Basically, I want them to take a chance to be GREAT.

 

Dude--Odorizzi, Cruz, Pineda.  All signed/traded for by Falvine, 11.3 WAR last year.  Without them, the Twins win 90 last year, and are sitting at home in October.  That's not even taking into consideration the 5.5 combined WAR of Castro, Gonzalez, Schoop, Cron, and Cave, nor the 5.2 combined WAR of Perez, Harper, Dobnak, Romo, and Littell.  That's 22 WAR from 13 players acquired by Falvine, without which the Twins go from 101 wins to 79.

 

While I'm frustrated the Twins couldn't get an impact player in FA this offseason, there's not a ton you can do when Cole is determined to go to the Yankees, Strasburg wants to stay in DC, Wheeler's agent tells you not to bother making offers, Bumgarner insists on going to Arizona, and Donaldson (seemingly) is only interested in the Twins as leverage.  Free Agency is a two-way street, and Falvine can't just snap their fingers and force whomever they want to sign here.

 

If what you're looking for is a front office that makes aggressive trades and signs free agents to megadeals, you should probably consider switching your fandom--that's just not going to be the Twins, and getting annoyed about it won't change that.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Dude--Odorizzi, Cruz, Pineda.  All signed/traded for by Falvine, 11.3 WAR last year.  Without them, the Twins win 90 last year, and are sitting at home in October.  That's not even taking into consideration the 5.5 combined WAR of Castro, Gonzalez, Schoop, Cron, and Cave, nor the 5.2 combined WAR of Perez, Harper, Dobnak, Romo, and Littell.  That's 22 WAR from 13 players acquired by Falvine, without which the Twins go from 101 wins to 79.

 

While I'm frustrated the Twins couldn't get an impact player in FA this offseason, there's not a ton you can do when Cole is determined to go to the Yankees, Strasburg wants to stay in DC, Wheeler's agent tells you not to bother making offers, Bumgarner insists on going to Arizona, and Donaldson (seemingly) is only interested in the Twins as leverage.  Free Agency is a two-way street, and Falvine can't just snap their fingers and force whomever they want to sign here.

 

If what you're looking for is a front office that makes aggressive trades and signs free agents to megadeals, you should probably consider switching your fandom--that's just not going to be the Twins, and getting annoyed about it won't change that.

 

I've been a fan of this team since the early 80s. I'm used to how they operate. What I am saying with my post there is that it is no different than TR's regime. We were told that wouldn't be the case when the window was open. We've seen this song and dance before with a couple different cores of players. 

 

I'm also not this huge fan of WAR. You named like 10 players that produced 10 WAR. They are not the reason for the winning. It's the core of the club. Surround them with about anyone that is a standard issue MLB player and you should get that production. 

 

Of course they should get credit for Odorizi, Cruz and Pineda. All 3 were crucial to their success last year. 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

... there's not a ton you can do when Cole is determined to go to the Yankees, Strasburg wants to stay in DC, Wheeler's agent tells you not to bother making offers, Bumgarner insists on going to Arizona, and Donaldson (seemingly) is only interested in the Twins as leverage.

Much of this can be easily refuted, but instead, I will turn the question around.

 

Why did Homer Bailey, Michael Pineda, Nelson Cruz, Ervin Santana, Rich Hill, and Rickey Nolasco want to come here?

[Vanimal46]

Much of this can be easily refuted, but instead, I will turn the question around.

 

Why did Homer Bailey, Michael Pineda, Nelson Cruz, Ervin Santana, Rich Hill, and Rickey Nolasco want to come here?

I hear Homer Bailey loves Taco Johns and breakfast pizza from Casey’s. Minnesota is quiet enough for Nelson Cruz to sleep in peace... Erv just loved smelling baseballs anywhere in the world. Nolasco came here to watch the world burn as he tossed beach balls down Broadway.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I hear Homer Bailey loves Taco Johns and breakfast pizza from Casey’s. Minnesota is quiet enough for Nelson Cruz to sleep in peace... Erv just loved smelling baseballs anywhere in the world. Nolasco came here to watch the world burn as he tossed beach balls down Broadway.

link?

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

Much of this can be easily refuted, but instead, I will turn the question around.

Why did Homer Bailey, Michael Pineda, Nelson Cruz, Ervin Santana, Rich Hill, and Rickey Nolasco want to come here?

 

Um, because none of them were desirable enough to be able to set their own terms?

 

My information came from Gleeman, and was stated on the Gleeman and the Geek podcast.  I know for a fact that Gleeman is far more plugged into the league, and the Twins specifically, than I am, so when he says something, I take it as truth.  I don't personally know you, so it's possible you're even more plugged into things than Gleeman, but I doubt that.

[Mr. Brooks]

Um, because none of them were desirable enough to be able to set their own terms?

 

My information came from Gleeman, and was stated on the Gleeman and the Geek podcast. I know for a fact that Gleeman is far more plugged into the league, and the Twins specifically, than I am, so when he says something, I take it as truth. I don't personally know you, so it's possible you're even more plugged into things than Gleeman, but I doubt that.

While Aaron Gleeman is probably more plugged into the league than most of us here, he's not a reporter.

He's not beholden to only reporting facts, he also freely gives uninformed opinions just like all of us do.

 

I wouldn't necessarily assume that everything he says is rooted in inside information.

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

While Aaron Gleeman is probably more plugged into the league than most of us here, he's not a reporter.
He's not beholden to only reporting facts, he also freely gives uninformed opinions just like all of us do.

I wouldn't necessarily assume that everything he says is rooted in inside information.

 

He is a reporter.  He reports for the Athletic, specifically on the topic of the Twins, but given that he spent the last 14 years involved with writing/editing about baseball in general, I feel comfortable that he is more plugged into the league than any poster on this site--after all, anyone who has more contacts than Gleeman league-wide is in all likelihood employed by some aspect of the baseball industry, and is probably not spending a ton of time posting anonymously on a message board.  It's certainly possible Hosken Bombo Disco is a ghost account used by the Twins front office, but somehow I doubt it.

 

I also don't assume everything Gleeman says is inside info, but when he prefaces something by saying something to the effect of "people within the Twins I've talked to," or "Ken Rosenthal answered my text by telling me his sources told him," I take it as pretty solid information.

[Mr. Brooks]

 

 

I also don't assume everything Gleeman says is inside info, but when he prefaces something by saying something to the effect of "people within the Twins I've talked to," or "Ken Rosenthal answered my text by telling me his sources told him," I take it as pretty solid information.

Of course.

I must have missed that context in your original post.

[sweetmusicviola16]

As far as Cruz coming here, his options were pretty much us. I'm glad we have him but it isn't like he had much for choices.

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

Of course.
I must have missed that context in your original post.

 

No, you didn't miss it, you just made an uninformed conjecture, rather than attempting to clarify.

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

As far as Cruz coming here, his options were pretty much us. I'm glad we have him but it isn't like he had much for choices.

 

Anything to not have to give credit to Falvine, I suppose.  Let's just ignore the Houston Astros purportedly being in pursuit.

[Melissa]

 

The thing is some are so quick to give this new front office so much credit for on field success. These are all Terry Ryan drafts and developed also under his leadership. Yes, the new guys run a different show and are much more analytical, etc. that’s good I think it will bear fruit.

That said, these are not their guys winning right now.

 

Hiring Rocco Baldelli was a savvy move by this FO, I would suggest!