Article: We Are All Witnesses, Right?

[Mike Sixel]

One of the best hitters we ever got to see, before all the concussions. 

 

But, imo, he's not a very good 1B (hitting, defense, running) at this point. I have no idea if Austin or Rooker or Sano or Garver are....but between them, you have position flexibility (well, I'd guess Austin is Grossman like in the OF.....) and youth, and a higher likelihood they hit better. 

 

As Chief points out, he won't likely play 1B in half the Twins' games this year. That's just not enough games for the team, imo. 

 

Love him as one of the great hitters of all time, but I'm hoping he retires (for his health and for the Twins' chance of getting more out of 1B).

[Vanimal46]

Not to mention, he's not all that likely to have a .750-.780 OPS (he's not there currently) and "that defense" comes with the caveat it's at first base, and it's part time. Mauer started his 64th game at first base last night (game 127 for the Twins).

 

IMO he obviously belongs in the Twins HOF, and in MLB's "Hall of Very Good." He had a very good first half of his career, but he's no longer a very good player.

 

I think it's time for the Twins to move on. Personally, I don't watch sport for sentimentality. I want to watch the Twins win 100 games, and win a World Series.

Would a young Chief be making the same argument at the tail end of Killebrew and Oliva's careers?

 

Joe was my generation's Killebrew and Oliva. I know we're nearing the end of Joe's playing days but I still want him play for the Twins. It's going to be a long, long time until there's another Twins player with a 15+ year tenure.

[wsnydes]

 

Would a young Chief be making the same argument at the tail end of Killebrew and Oliva's careers?

Joe was my generation's Killebrew and Oliva. I know we're nearing the end of Joe's playing days but I still want him play for the Twins. It's going to be a long, long time until there's another Twins player with a 15+ year tenure.

I keep waffling back and forth on this. Part of me really wants to keep watching him play, but the other part of me wants him to go out while he's not just hanging on by a thread. It's always sad to me to watch former stars hang on to the bitter end as a shell of their former selves. I'd prefer Joe not to hit that point and go out with grace.

[D. Hocking]

 

Setting aside debates about whether he's good enough to help the team next year (I think he is) it would seem to be Joe's style to slide off into the sunset without fanfare.  A one year contract while ceding playing time would make it obvious he was finished, and the stories and accolades would start following him.  Not sure he'd want that.

 

Yes - whenever he retires there probably won't be an announcement until he cleans out his locker for the last time.   They can have a Joe Mauer night at one of the home games the following season.

 

The beginning of the year I would have liked to see him play another year or two, but after the concussion this year, I am leaning towards where I was with Justin at the end and thinking it might be better to retire now to protect the health long term.   I suspect having a new baby and the girls entering the age of school age activities might also factor in to his decision.

 

  

 

 

[alarp33]

I wouldn't sign Mauer for sentimental reasons, I don't care about that. I'd sign him because I still think he can help this team at a position of need, and likely wouldn't cost that much. Let's not forget some of the options this team has used regularly this year, that Mauer has vastly outperformed at the plate Gross, LoMo, etc.  Would I play him every day? No.  But start him 70% of the time at 1B, let Austin play the other 30% (while also DH'ing on other day), let Rooker force his way up, etc.  

[Mike Sixel]

 

I wouldn't sign Mauer for sentimental reasons, I don't care about that. I'd sign him because I still think he can help this team at a position of need, and likely wouldn't cost that much. Let's not forget some of the options this team has used regularly this year, that Mauer has vastly outperformed at the plate Gross, LoMo, etc.  Would I play him every day? No.  But start him 70% of the time at 1B, let Austin play the other 30% (while also DH'ing on other day), let Rooker force his way up, etc.  

 

he's not even going to play half the games at 1B this year.....no way he plays more next year as he ages and others come on the team.

[alarp33]

 

he's not even going to play half the games at 1B this year.....no way he plays more next year as he ages and others come on the team.

 

He's going to play 70% of the games this year. Forget I said "1st", he can have some DH days

[Thebigalguy]

I hope he comes back. He has the best average in the league with RISP. On a team full of players who lose their composure with men on second and third, Joe is the Man. We need him.

[Thebigalguy]

I hope he comes back. He has the best average in the league with RISP. On a team full of players who lose their composure with men on second and third, Joe is the Man. We need him.

[RaymondLuxuryYacht]

 

 

And that's saying a lot

[birddog]

Mauer is a hall of fame person, a future Twins hall of famer, and a certain HOF'er had he remained a catcher. Thanks for the memories Joe.

 

The Mauer era ended in 2013, when Joe became just another of the mediocre bunch. His elite status is just a memory. Hitting .275 with 5 HRs, 39 RBIs, and 45 runs?! We all want the Joe from preconcussion back, but all we are getting is the post-concussion Joe. Not his fault by any means, but it is the reality we are receiving and we need much more production from our 1B.

 

I would love to believe that we are contenders once again next year, but I am too much of a realist. I was the most optimistic Twins fan at the start of this year and I am still in shock from this putrid season. If Joe does indeed want to pursue a World Series, I would have guessed he approached the front office and asked to be traded late this year. I doubt that happened but even if it had, a contending team had to believe he was better than what they had. Alas, Joe is still a Twin. Time to move on for both parties.

 

 

[ashbury]

Health permitting, I most certainly look forward to seeing Joe playing for the Twins in 2019.

I likewise am hoping for your continued good health, Craig.

[MN_ExPat]

 

Mauer never made an effort in off season to maintain his early success and figured he could just show up and play and do ok. Winning was obviously never a priority with Joe and being a team leader obviously was not. At a size for a football tight end he is content to flare balls to left to keep the average and obp up and maybe run into one every now and then.

 

Talent - A

Effort and determination to be great and and actually improve in his prime years -  F

 

Joe was/is and underachiever who could have been great but settled for good.

That's... well, I got nothing.   It's also not really all that fair to the player and especially the person to speak thusly.   I sense frustration and/or perhaps exasperation with other fans bromance with Joe.   I get it, no one says you have to feel that way, but perhaps you may want to consider that baseball is a game designed around failure and also look at his numbers pre-mounting injuries.   They tell a much different story.

[dbminn]

 

I think you would need to show some context to give this illustration meaning. Seeing it for a single player isn't surprising -- virtually all players are underpaid in their early years; those few whose careers survive long enough probably get overpaid later in their careers. I have no idea how Mauer's value/salary ranks among his peers. I suspect it's not that bad, even post-30, but I can't tell just from Mauer's numbers alone.

 

Good question. I went to the new Fangraphs seasonal value table and looked at 2005-2010. I downloaded the info and found totals for all players (for some reason, FG doesn't have a "total" column). Mauer had the fifth highest value of all position players, after:

 

Pujols / Utley / A-Rod / D Wright

 

I didn't use 2004 because Mauer got hurt after 122 PA (1.2 WAR). Doesn't really answer your question about players in their first six years but it was the best I could do. 

 

He's 79th from 2011-Present.

[wsnydes]

 

 

Twins record in the Mauer era 1080 wins, 1155 losses. Since the big contract 647 wins, 776 losses.

 

It's almost like the supporting cast around him got worse as time went on...

[USAFChief]

 

Would a young Chief be making the same argument at the tail end of Killebrew and Oliva's careers?

Joe was my generation's Killebrew and Oliva. I know we're nearing the end of Joe's playing days but I still want him play for the Twins. It's going to be a long, long time until there's another Twins player with a 15+ year tenure.

Chief wasn't young at the tail end of Killebrew and Oliva's career. 

 

j/k.  

 

I understand sentimentality, and everyone is certainly entitled to be a fan in their own way.

 

I just don't share it a whole lot. I cheer for the name on the front of the jersey a whole lot more than the name on the back.

 

 

[wsnydes]

 

Chief wasn't young at the tail end of Killebrew and Oliva's career. 

 

j/k.

 

I understand sentimentality, and everyone is certainly entitled to be a fan in their own way.

 

I just don't share it a whole lot. I cheer for the name on the front of the jersey a whole lot more than the name on the back.

I think this mentality is a lot easier these days. I know that it is for me. Players typically don't stay in one place very long, so its harder to grow a lot of sentimentality for a player. Mauer is one of those rarer players that has only played with one team his whole career (thus far). I do think there is something to be said about a player staying "home" and playing their whole career with one team, but it's got to end at some point. I'd rather see him retire than put on another uniform, but it's more that I'd rather him hang up his spikes before there's obviously nothing left. Go out on your own terms rather than being forced from the game.

[Kelly Vance]

 

Here is my thing.....

 

In the last I don't know how many years of watching Mauer I have never thought that I am watching "greatness"

 

He's been a pretty boring, ordinary player for quite some time.  THe best thing he does is walk a lot. Apart from that, what does he do?  HIs ISO numbers have been among the worst in baseball for years and he hasn't been a catcher for six seasons.  Where is the value?

 

If he were to sign for anything more than 1 year 5 million we overpaid.  Sorry for not feeling sentimental about Mauer.  I just want the Twins back on course

You are not a Mauer fan and your view is colored by that.To the point where you don't give him credit for some awesome accomplishments. He is still a great player. 

[Kelly Vance]

 

Mauer is a hall of fame person, a future Twins hall of famer, and a certain HOF'er had he remained a catcher. Thanks for the memories Joe.

 

The Mauer era ended in 2013, when Joe became just another of the mediocre bunch. His elite status is just a memory. Hitting .275 with 5 HRs, 39 RBIs, and 45 runs?! We all want the Joe from preconcussion back, but all we are getting is the post-concussion Joe. Not his fault by any means, but it is the reality we are receiving and we need much more production from our 1B.

 

I would love to believe that we are contenders once again next year, but I am too much of a realist. I was the most optimistic Twins fan at the start of this year and I am still in shock from this putrid season. If Joe does indeed want to pursue a World Series, I would have guessed he approached the front office and asked to be traded late this year. I doubt that happened but even if it had, a contending team had to believe he was better than what they had. Alas, Joe is still a Twin. Time to move on for both parties.

a little unfair to quote stats when he missed a month and its still only August. 

[Vanimal46]

Chief wasn't young at the tail end of Killebrew and Oliva's career.

 

j/k.

 

I understand sentimentality, and everyone is certainly entitled to be a fan in their own way.

 

I just don't share it a whole lot. I cheer for the name on the front of the jersey a whole lot more than the name on the back.

It's only rare circumstances where sentiment is more important, and Joe is the example. He's still providing value to the team on and off the field. In the future if Miguel Sano spends 15 years with the team and he's winding down, I'll feel the same way I feel today.

 

I don't think people appreciate his contributions and loyalty to the team enough.

 

He still has a noticably higher BA and OBP than league average. The Twins need people to get on base for someone else to hit them in.

 

I like how they're using Mauer now as the leadoff hitter. He could do the same next year as a DH/part time 1B.

[Kelly Vance]

It seems from reading these posts, and all the ones that came before, that there are basically two groups:  the ones who admire Joe and remain big fans and the "what have you done for me lately " people.

 

Put me with the first group. Joe has been awesome for many years and I am grateful that I got to see him play so many games. I hope he gives it at least one more year.

 

As for the negatives or critics, I just don't understand it. I have read criticisms that seem more like accusations of a truly loyal Twin and future Hall of Famer.  Things like "Joe is not good at baseball" or that "Joe should be forced to retire" or that "Joe does not work on things in the off season" (as if you know what he does) or "Joe is not clutch"    Yeah right. He leads the majors in hitting with RISP. Not clutch? No, not much.... only the best clutch hitter out of hundreds of major leaguers.

 

You just cannot argue with critics that are bound and determined to only see failings and faults and who ignore the good. 

 

Put me down with the grateful fans that appreciate what Joe has done and look forward to one more year. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

Great article Ted. Thanks.  And thanks to Joe Mauer. It has been a pleasure being a huge fan of Joe Mauer.

[Twodogs]

There isn't 25 guys on this team that are better than him.  No matter how disappointing he is to those that want him to hit 25 Hr's per year he is still one of the best players on the team.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

Good question. I went to the new Fangraphs seasonal value table and looked at 2005-2010. I downloaded the info and found totals for all players (for some reason, FG doesn't have a "total" column). Mauer had the fifth highest value of all position players, after:

 

Pujols / Utley / A-Rod / D Wright

 

I didn't use 2004 because Mauer got hurt after 122 PA (1.2 WAR). Doesn't really answer your question about players in their first six years but it was the best I could do.

 

He's 79th from 2011-Present.

Thanks. Looks like you could get totals through the regular Fangraphs stats page:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=6&season=2010&month=0&season1=2005&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=13,d

 

But as to the question, you could probably pick out some pre-FA guys on that list -- Wright, Utley, Cabrera, etc. -- and compare them to Mauer somehow, both pre-FA and post-FA.

 

I suspect Mauer will come out looking just fine, but it would at least provide some context.

[yarnivek1972]

There isn't 25 guys on this team that are better than him. No matter how disappointing he is to those that want him to hit 25 Hr's per year he is still one of the best players on the team.

And maybe that is why the Twins record is what it is. Right now, Mauer has a .9 bWAR. Logan Forsythe has a 1.0.

 

It’s time.

[Nick Nelson]

Someone who covers the team recently proclaimed to me with 100% certainty that Mauer will be back. I just don't see it.

 

Looking beyond his status and rep (which I believe this front office will do), there's too much evident decline in his hitting ability to give a multi-year deal at age 36. Outside of some brief flashes the guy has had almost ZERO power this year.

 

I wouldn't have a problem offering like 1 year/7m but with $200m in career earnings, plus a newborn on the way in November and his twin girls starting school, is that really gonna be worthwhile for Joe? 

[Kelly Vance]

 

Someone who covers the team recently proclaimed to me with 100% certainty that Mauer will be back. I just don't see it.

 

Looking beyond his status and rep (which I believe this front office will do), there's too much evident decline in his hitting ability to give a multi-year deal at age 36. Outside of some brief flashes the guy has had almost ZERO power this year.

 

I wouldn't have a problem offering like 1 year/7m but with $200m in career earnings, plus a newborn on the way in November and his twin girls starting school, is that really gonna be worthwhile for Joe? 

Someone told you it is 100 percent and you don't see it? Maybe you need new glasses. 

[kenbuddha]

 

Twins record in the Mauer era 1080 wins, 1155 losses. Since the big contract 647 wins, 776 losses.

 

Mauer never made an effort in off season to maintain his early success and figured he could just show up and play and do ok. Winning was obviously never a priority with Joe and being a team leader obviously was not.

I don't know how to look up a team record while a particular player played for them, but I'd be interested to see what HOF Bert Blyleven's teams record was while he played for them. Once again, someone trying to attribute a team's statistic for an individual player. A team record has a lot to do with the players that are on the team. Put Mauer on the same teams as Puckett and have him do what he's done, somehow your impression of him improves? Sheesh. Didn't people move beyond this sort of ridiculous type of correlation a long time ago?

 

And as to the second point above, Mauer "never made an effort in the off season" and "winning was never a priority" care to prove that? Or is that just unprovable speculation on your part?

 

I'm on the fence about Mauer and the HOF. If he had retired immediately after the brain injury (ala Puckett and the eye injury), he'd be in the HOF already in my opinion. He was just that good. (Plus I wouldn't have to read the above types of tripe. He decided to continue on though and that hasn't helped his HOF chances, but I'm guessing he's fine with it.)

 

Whatever decision is made, I hope he enjoys himself.

[Vanimal46]

Someone who covers the team recently proclaimed to me with 100% certainty that Mauer will be back. I just don't see it.

 

Looking beyond his status and rep (which I believe this front office will do), there's too much evident decline in his hitting ability to give a multi-year deal at age 36. Outside of some brief flashes the guy has had almost ZERO power this year.

 

I wouldn't have a problem offering like 1 year/7m but with $200m in career earnings, plus a newborn on the way in November and his twin girls starting school, is that really gonna be worthwhile for Joe?

Where did multi-year contract come into play here? I would think at this point it's year to year. His hitting may be declining from his absurd levels in the past but he's still hitting at an above league clip compared to MLB's median BA.

 

Edit: Also, that makes me happy to read he's coming back next season.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Vanimal46

[Fritzderkat]

I went on record on this about a week ago, reading the comments and remarking on the fact there are so many fans who are easily persuaded it's time for Joe to go. I like a comment above that says he's still one of the two-best players on the current 25-man roster, and in my opinion if you measure his stature and positives over the length of his career (who's the other?), he's as good as the Twins have ever produced; indeed, a franchise icon: Killebrew, Oliva, Carew, Puckett, possibly Johann Santana. Who else do you have?

Meantime, you can nickel and dime over who you have better to play first base next year, or second, for that matter.