I'm not seeing any statistics there to back anything up.

Until someone measures this, it's just an opinion. And in my eye it's a weak opinion.

Doing the Hokey Pokey never made anyone a better dancer.

 

Who's everyone got for the fifth starter now?

My gag-inducing best guess is Vogelsong is the leading candidate for the spot. I told a friend when they signed him that I expected him to win the #5 spot ... because it seems "veteran presence" trumps "ability" and "talent" with Molitor and, at least it appears so far, the new front office.

Johan Santana worked out fine.

Different. Santana started in the majors as a long reliever.

This is seriously just the worst.

 

 

I can assure you there are plenty of people who believe this and there is some correlation to back it up:

http://joesheehan.com/?q=node/648

From that article:

What the two pitchers have in common is a career path that is destructive: moving from starter to reliever and back. Over the past decade, teams have ruined a number of pitchers by switching them from one role to the next and seeing the pitchers involved lose health and effectiveness in the process. The jobs have become so completely different -- as relievers' roles are narrowed to throwing 15 pitches 75 times a year -- that pitchers can't port their skills or their training from one to the other without putting themselves at risk.

From that article [called How to Break Pitchers] I get what you're saying.

 

 "Breaking in pitchers as relievers worked when the jobs were closer in their practice than they are today. Now, teams don't roster swingmen or long relievers."

 

"Back in '65, when Weaver broke in Palmer, there were 454 relief appearances in which a pitcher threw at least 3 1/3 innings."

 

I can't say what the Twins original plan was when they moved May to the bullpen, other than they wanted a guy with a big fastball in the pen.  If May had been used more as the Long Relievers of yore [or Juan Berenguer] he would have been more "stretched out", so to speak. Throwing harder [and more frequently] than he had previously as a starter in MiLB exacerbated his back problem and probably the cause of the torn ulnar collateral ligament.

 

 

Edited March 11, 20179 yr by HitInAPinch

Why are we surprised?  Last year May was hurt and we were told that he should go to the starting rotation for his physical well being.  Pitching is a terrible difficult physical demand and if he was breaking down in the bullpen, how was starting going to change that?  I hate to see any player go down, but disappointment, not shock is my response. Now, concentrate on the young pitchers.  Help them to succeed.  Push the mediocre aging pitchers out at the same time.  

 

Different. Santana started in the majors as a long reliever.

 

Nope. He went between starting and relieving for four full years.

Johan Santana worked out fine.

Santana was in the bullpen because he was a rule 5 pick and they had to stash him

I'm not seeing any statistics there to back anything up.

 

Until someone measures this, it's just an opinion. And in my eye it's a weak opinion.

Sheehan is one of the most respected baseball minds there is fwiw. This isn't just some random blogger or something.

 

 

Sheehan is one of the most respected baseball minds there is fwiw. This isn't just some random blogger or something.

 

Let me know when Sheehan backs up this 4 year old article with some research.

I think we need to get a grip here. At his best May has been mediocre to this point in his career, he isn't a top of the rotation guy we're losing.

 

Let's hope he can come back and be a decent pitcher because even decent is better than most of what we have, imo.

I think we need to get a grip here. At his best May has been mediocre to this point in his career, he isn't a top of the rotation guy we're losing.

 

Let's hope he can come back and be a decent pitcher because even decent is better than most of what we have, imo.

At his best May was one of the better 8th inning guys in baseball and looking to be a good bet to be a solid #3 as a starter. Not to mention he very likely would have been the Twins second best SP this year.

 

Hardly mediocre.

Bummer, big time. Hope this doesn't affect his controller grip. Wait a second...two major video games came out in the last week...

 

Forget Terry Ryan. I'm blaming Nintendo for this one.

 

Mejia projects to be a back end guy, you don't have to worry as much about rushing him or moving him between majors and the minors multiple times, plus it would be good to see what he has.

 

May is a back end guy too, but you believe bouncing him around destroyed his arm. 

 

I'm not getting you today, at all.

 

Well for one thing: Santana ended up having significant arm injuries that ended up cutting his career very short.
 

 

Do you think his early career had anything to do with Santana's arm injury? Did you see how many arms his last manager shredded before learning the hard way to start using innings limits and pitch counts?

 

 

At his best May was one of the better 8th inning guys in baseball and looking to be a good bet to be a solid #3 as a starter.

 

Lots of us wanted him to be those things so badly that we imagined them to be true. None of this ever was true.

 

I'm not saying he did not have potential, I'm saying he never lived up to our desires. This isn't his fault, as far as I can tell.

Edited March 11, 20179 yr by Doomtints

I'm not going to address any specific post(s) but I think it's sheer guesswork on our part whether the changes in his role on the staff contributed to this injury. That may have or it may not have, I don't know. I would put stock in the opinion of an orthopedic surgeon or perhaps another health care provider but not in the opinion of a baseball writer or a web site participant.

They could turn to the guy that had the best xFIP among their starters last year at 3.89 (Santana was 4.21).

Pitchers get hurt. And statistically the best predictor of injury is previous injury.

 

It sicks May and the Twins, but he does seem to have a good attitude about it and ready to attack his rehab.

 

I'm not going to address any specific post(s) but I think it's sheer guesswork on our part whether the changes in his role on the staff contributed to this injury. That may have or it may not have, I don't know. I would put stock in the opinion of an orthopedic surgeon or perhaps another health care provider but not in the opinion of a baseball writer or a web site participant.

Right. Why I'm hoping heazy will jump in with some perspective. Sometimes **** just happens.

I tend to agree. Wonder if Heazy is around and can give us an expert opinion and perspective on this. But I've never seen any kind of correlation in this unless mentally it forced him to do something differently. Difficult to know for sure, so yeah, I do tend to agree.

 

I can't say I'm aware of any data on switching between roles (SP/RP) but there is some fairly good data that discusses the effects of core injuries and that it can result in increased stress on the shoulder and elbow. So perhaps indirectly, if we believe his transition to the bullpen was a contributing factor to his back issues, we could say that switching may have been related to the current problem.

 

A more interesting question to me is, since this was an acute injury, is he a candidate for a direct repair instead of TJ...

 

Doing the Hokey Pokey never made anyone a better dancer.

 

But that's what it's all about.

Sorry I'm late to the thread, at a family function presently. Will try to contribute more when I get a chance.

 

If the starting rotation starts with Santana, Santiago, Gibson and Hughes, then choose from one of the young guys:  Berrios, Duffey or Mejia. 

 

I also think, of the last 3 already mention for the rotation, at least one of them should go. I don't really agree with the resigning of both Santiago and Gibson.  At some point, you have to move on with youth.

I know there is basically a zero percent chance of this happening, but if Ryan Volgelsong wins the fifth starter job I'll probably have a stroke.

 

I can't say I'm aware of any data on switching between roles (SP/RP) but there is some fairly good data that discusses the effects of core injuries and that it can result in increased stress on the shoulder and elbow. So perhaps indirectly, if we believe his transition to the bullpen was a contributing factor to his back issues, we could say that switching may have been related to the current problem. A more interesting question to me is, since this was an acute injury, is he a candidate for a direct repair instead of TJ...

As if on cue! Thanks! I consider you TD's expert in residence for these types of discussion!

 

Sorry I'm late to the thread, at a family function presently. Will try to contribute more when I get a chance.

Thanks in advance for your valuable contribution to this thread!

 

I know there is basically a zero percent chance of this happening, but if Ryan Volgelsong wins the fifth starter job I'll probably have a stroke.

My thoughts exactly. The problem is I can see this as a realistic scenario....

 

 . A more interesting question to me is, since this was an acute injury, is he a candidate for a direct repair instead of TJ...

Can you elaborate on that specifically please?  Difference in effect, and recovery time to be included.

 

Doing the Hokey Pokey never made anyone a better dancer.

Sounds  like just your opinion.    I know people that would only get out there for the Hokey Pokey so whatever dancing skills they might have had would only get better, in my opinion.   Any sportswriters with opinions on this?  Any factual evidence?  If in fact the Hokey Pokey is what its all about then all other dancing would be for the purpose of getting better at the Hokey Pokey rather than otherwise.

 

First Kirillof, then Gonsalves (still hoping for him), now the coup de grâce.  Goodness gracious what the hell did the Twins do that upset the baseball gods so?

Prior to that it was Sano and what feels like every other pitcher in the history of the Twins.    Just curious.   Is this their stretching routine?