Reusse: Twins Fielding Calls On Eduardo Escobar

[jokin]

 

We were standing around in the clubhouse the morning or two before Patrick's article came out on Escobar. I posed the question to them, rhetorically, and I tweeted it a couple of weeks ago to. I'd love for someone to do the research. Has any 25-year-old shortstop ever put up the numbers that Escobar did in 2014 (.720ish OPS - OPS+ may be better too look at because of the era - with 35 doubles) and not been just handed the starting job the following season?

 

I can't imagine it's happened too much.

 

As one of the other writers said, I believe Phil Miller, "That's the power of the label." 

 

Escobar has always been deemed a utility player. He came up with the White Sox as a late-inning defensive replacement because they saw him as a utility guy. I think he can be a solid MLB shortstop.

 

I also think most organizations view him as a utility guy, so I don't think they would get much for him in trade.

 

Didn't the Mets balk at Escobar in the offseason? I think all Escobar proved in 2014 is he could be a solid MLB SS for bottom-feeding teams.  Irreverent writer Grant Brisbee, who was mentored by sabremetrcian Rob Neyer, was absolutely unimpressed by Escobar's 2014 numbers (He even threw Santana under the same skeptical bus), and probably expresses Escobar's perceived value around most every MLB team.  It's hard to imagine anyone with the intention of building a winning team would consider Escobar as an acceptable option at SS (and I'm speaking as a fan of what Escobar brings as a Twin- if the Twins were to get an offer of someone that can clearly make the team better longer-term- say a late-inning bulldog, they have to take it).

 

 

"The biggest holes on every AL team"

The Twins lead the world in don't-trust-'em players.....     Almost everyone on the roster allows me to play devil's advocate in the event I need to crush a Twins fan's hopes and dreams, possibly to establish some sort of social dominance at a party.

No one is less trustworthy than Escobar, though. When a shortstop who has never hit in the minors starts to hit in the majors, it's only natural to be skeptical. The odds were against Brandon Crawford ever approaching anything close to useful with the bat, so keystone miracles do happen, and if you're looking for a good sign, Escobar's 35 doubles are there for you.

Still, for a team that's spent more than $100 million on a rotation that might not be league average this year, it's the shortstop that worries me the most. Can't put my finger on it. Just don't trust him.

Edit: I've been politely informed that Danny Santana is most likely the starting shortstop, and either Roster Resource has changed to reflect that, or I was just a dummy and read something completely different. The good news is almost all of those words still apply. Santana never hit in his minor league career, not even a little bit. The odds of him figuring out how to hit last year, showing that new ability off with 400 swing-happy, average-dependent, .405 BABiP-fueled, major league at-bats seems mighty unlikely.

The Twins are weird. Can't figure them out, not one bit.

 

 

 

[DocBauer]

In other words...offer me very substantial or bugger off.

[stringer bell]

For some reason, I can't quote jokin, but I found two points made in Brisbee's analysis to fit quite well--1) There are a whole bunch of "don't trust 'em" players. Yes, they do. Plouffe and Dozier are the most established regulars, other than Mauer, and both have detractors and troubling stats. Both Escobar and Santana seem to be reasonable candidates for regression, and on and on. 2) "The Twins are weird. Can't figure them out at all". I agree that they are tough to figure. In my view, that just makes them intriguing.

[Dman]

If teams aren't offering anything for him of course you don't trade him, but the value he has to the Twins is of the immediate variety and I could barely care less about immediate value, we shouldn't be expecting gratification from the win column this year.

He might end up being a better SS than Santana, but we are soon going to need to see if Polanco can cut it at the MLB level, and Micheal, and Gordon. I just don't see full time work available for Escobar in his future, and if you're not playing full time, you are absolutely expendable to a rebuilding team.

In many ways we agree. Like You and Doc said there appears to be more talented players behind Esco so his future is very uncertain. My only quibble is I think it could pay off to keep him playing shortstop and if he has another successful year he could be worth a lot more than what I feel we could get right now.

 

I am an Esco believer. I think he is a major league starting shortstop for some teams or a very valuable utility player that gives you solid defense and offense. Those are hard to find as well. I just disagree with the timing unless the Twins would get something decent for him.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

We were standing around in the clubhouse the morning or two before Patrick's article came out on Escobar. I posed the question to them, rhetorically, and I tweeted it a couple of weeks ago to. I'd love for someone to do the research. Has any 25-year-old shortstop ever put up the numbers that Escobar did in 2014 (.720ish OPS - OPS+ may be better too look at because of the era - with 35 doubles) and not been just handed the starting job the following season?

 

I can't imagine it's happened too much.

 

As one of the other writers said, I believe Phil Miller, "That's the power of the label." 

 

Escobar has always been deemed a utility player. He came up with the White Sox as a late-inning defensive replacement because they saw him as a utility guy. I think he can be a solid MLB shortstop.

 

I also think most organizations view him as a utility guy, so I don't think they would get much for him in trade.

Well put. Fairly or unfairly, Escobar has been labelled. I think he can be an everyday infielder too. I bet these phone calls are from teams looking for a starting shortstop for the price of a utility infielder.

[Paul Pleiss]

This morning, while walking through the Twins dugout, I heard St. Paul Molitor say "Wait, there's more than one Eduardo on this team?!"

 

If I'm Terry Ryan I don't trade Eduardo Escobar unless the trade also includes one of Pelfrey/Milone and the return is some minor league guy I've probably never heard of but has at least some upside.

 

It clears some room in the rotation/pen for the Twins. And while I think Eddie Escobar is considerably undervalued by most fans, I don't think he's more than a quality utility infielder. Last season was awesome. I don't think it happens again. I also don't have high hopes for Santan to hit anyhting approaching last season's marks... so I think the possibility of a trade for Escobar before the ASG is highly unlikely. But hey, to get rid of Milone, I'd be happy to throw in Escobar. Does that make me such a terrible person?

[Riverbrian]

I ain't trading him.

 

Depth is important!!!

 

if you worry about regression... Depth kinda helps.

 

Unless the Mets are shipping Harvey or Wheeler or DeGrom or that Noah Kid.

 

I ain't trading him.

[beckmt]

I am in the same boat,  do not see dealing Escobar unless you send him with a starting pitcher for something better.  A can't miss prospect or 2 or some bullpen help in the back end and very good.  Both are hard to find.

[Paul Pleiss]

 

I am in the same boat,  do not see dealing Escobar unless you send him with a starting pitcher for something better.  A can't miss prospect or 2 or some bullpen help in the back end and very good.  Both are hard to find.

 

There's no way Escobar and Pelf/Milone bring back a can't miss prospect or any very good bullpen help. You'd like have to trade them for maybe a B prospect or a bullpen high risk/high reward type guy. I mean, we're talking about back of the rotation guys and a maybe everyday SS but probably super utility guy. The Twins won't get any sort of blockbuster trade for that. I think it makes the most sense to hang onto Escobar and use him as an everyday player, but all over the diamond, super utliity type, and maximize his value that way and hope that Pelf or Milone can pitch their way off this team to open up room for Meyer, May and some of the #BigVelo arms moving through the system.

[Platoon]

To me the argument whether Escobar can play SS is not really if he has the ability to play there! He does. but does he like several other Twins starters have the ability to get past 70 wins? So far the answer would seem to be no. This is a team that has lost over 90 for 4 years. This year it looks like basically 7 position players return, albeit possibly standing somewhere else on the field. And the majority of the vaunted pitching staff! In any other sport, on any other team that was arguably the worst team in their sport, their would be no "sacred cows". But in Twins Territory, the mention of moving anyone seems to cause a wringing of hands, and mashing of teeth! I don't doubt that the majority of the aforementioned players are of major league caliber. It's the sum of the total that I question.

[HitInAPinch]

 

We were standing around in the clubhouse the morning or two before Patrick's article came out on Escobar. I posed the question to them, rhetorically, and I tweeted it a couple of weeks ago to. I'd love for someone to do the research. Has any 25-year-old shortstop ever put up the numbers that Escobar did in 2014 (.720ish OPS - OPS+ may be better too look at because of the era - with 35 doubles) and not been just handed the starting job the following season?

 

I can't imagine it's happened too much.

 

As one of the other writers said, I believe Phil Miller, "That's the power of the label." 

 

Escobar has always been deemed a utility player. He came up with the White Sox as a late-inning defensive replacement because they saw him as a utility guy. I think he can be a solid MLB shortstop.

 

I also think most organizations view him as a utility guy, so I don't think they would get much for him in trade.

 

Seth, the 1st part of your post is my thing, too.  Escobar had a really good season.  Why isn't he at least in the conversation to be the starting SS? 

 

 

[beckmt]

 

There's no way Escobar and Pelf/Milone bring back a can't miss prospect or any very good bullpen help. You'd like have to trade them for maybe a B prospect or a bullpen high risk/high reward type guy. I mean, we're talking about back of the rotation guys and a maybe everyday SS but probably super utility guy. The Twins won't get any sort of blockbuster trade for that. I think it makes the most sense to hang onto Escobar and use him as an everyday player, but all over the diamond, super utliity type, and maximize his value that way and hope that Pelf or Milone can pitch their way off this team to open up room for Meyer, May and some of the #BigVelo arms moving through the system.

I was talking about moving Escobar with a Nolasco(who does not seem to want to be here) not a bottom of the rotation starter.  There should be a club by the end of spring training that needs both postitions filled and the Twins need the space for prospects coming up.  Do not see Escobar on this team 2-3 years from now and other GM's are not going to pay much at that time for a player they may be able to claim from the wavier wire.  

I agree we were a 90 loss team with him and we should move any combination that will position the Twins for the future without selling low on the propects.

[gunnarthor]

In fairness to the Twins, a lot of experts never thought Plouffe and Dozier would be good MLers.  Klaw called Plouffe a AAAA guy and Dozier was a joke to a lot of smart people (including a few here).  (Of course, Klaw also said Parm was a AAAA player, too). 

 

So maybe Santana or Escobar can be a good ML shortstop.  Unless some team gives them an insane deal - say the Nats offered Cole or Taylor - keep Escobar for the depth.

 

 

[Halsey Hall]

 

In fairness to the Twins, a lot of experts never thought Plouffe and Dozier would be good MLers.  Klaw called Plouffe a AAAA guy and Dozier was a joke to a lot of smart people (including a few here).  (Of course, Klaw also said Parm was a AAAA player, too). 

 

So maybe Santana or Escobar can be a good ML shortstop.  Unless some team gives them an insane deal - say the Nats offered Cole or Taylor - keep Escobar for the depth.

Klaw must be a very smart man, or close to it.  I have Plouffe as AAA guy. 

 

[Kwak]

 

I was talking about moving Escobar with a Nolasco(who does not seem to want to be here) not a bottom of the rotation starter.  There should be a club by the end of spring training that needs both postitions filled and the Twins need the space for prospects coming up.  Do not see Escobar on this team 2-3 years from now and other GM's are not going to pay much at that time for a player they may be able to claim from the wavier wire.  

I agree we were a 90 loss team with him and we should move any combination that will position the Twins for the future without selling low on the propects.

The twins don't need "hole-pluggers"--they need top talent. Signing free-agents at that level isn't "in the cards" right now, so they must trade for it. Trades of multiple players for one player, is the most likely way to acquire said talent. 

[gunnarthor]

 

The twins don't need "hole-pluggers"--they need top talent. Signing free-agents at that level isn't "in the cards" right now, so they must trade for it. Trades of multiple players for one player, is the most likely way to acquire said talent. 

That's true.  And a few of those types of trades to happen but not as many as you think - White Sox traded a quantity of crap for one year of Shark, Reds got Latos but did give up some stuff but nothing that looked like it would haunt them.  But the general rule of these trades seems to be cost controlled guys - not bad contracts.  So maybe Escobar, Gibson and another top 10 prospect could return a guy with potential top talent down the road.

 

Frankly, I think the Twins have the pieces to make some big trades if they wanted to.  Dozier, Plouffe and Gibson could all be moved.  Would the Mets trade top catching prospect Plaweki (who is blocked by D'Arnaud) for Gibson, Escobar and Thorpe?  (They might be pitching rich and prefer bats, I'm not sure).  The Twins could decide to go with Plouffe and move Sano for a huge haul.  I think the Nats would probably give up anyone not named Gioltio for Dozier, since second base is their only hole and he's cost controlled for another 4 years.  But the Twins don't need to make those kind of trades right now.  They can wait and see where they need the help while the Buxton/Sano nucleus is forming.  I think Plouffe gets traded eventually to make way for Sano.  Hopefully he's hitting .270/.340/.450 at the trade deadline and brings back a strong haul. 

[Thrylos]

 

 

 

 

Frankly, I think the Twins have the pieces to make some big trades if they wanted to.  Dozier, Plouffe and Gibson could all be moved.  Would the Mets trade top catching prospect Plaweki (who is blocked by D'Arnaud) for Gibson, Escobar and Thorpe?  (They might be pitching rich and prefer bats, I'm not sure).  The Twins could decide to go with Plouffe and move Sano for a huge haul.

 

I like the first idea,  but I would include Pinto in that trade, who would be expandable.  Trading Sano instead of Plouffe does not make much sense.  Every team that moved their top prospect has regretted it and it has always been done to win now.  The Red Sox are the masters of regret (Schilling, Bagwell, HanRam).  You got to trade players at (or close to) the peak of the careers and Plouffe might be there.  Sano can anchor the Twins lineup for years, in the manner that the Killer and Kirby did.  Since Kirby's retirement, the Twins lack that player and has been painful.  Sano is that kind of talent.  You don't trade that.  Plouffe on the other hand...

[jokin]

 

 

 

So maybe Santana or Escobar can be a good ML shortstop.  Unless some team gives them an insane deal - say the Nats offered Cole or Taylor - keep Escobar for the depth.

 

I think we're barking up the wrong trees here.  The last Twins deal with the Nats was Span for (then Class A+) Alex Meyer- they aren't insane enough to ever need Esco as badly as you (tongue-in-cheek) proposed.

 

How about teams that have the luxury to over-value spare parts?  The Dodgers gave the Twins something for nothing on the Butera trade.  They gave Dee Gordon and Dan Haren to the Marlins for "spare parts" (one of whom was an Escobar comp, Enrique Hernandez).  How nice would it be to be debating this spring whether or not Dan Haren should be our 5th SP rather than Milone and Pelfrey?-  and not only that.... the Dodgers are actually paying Haren's $10M salary for the Marlins this year.

 

The Dodgers still look like they could use an upgrade in the Util Inf area, and have two aging infielders on the left side that are going to need days off.   This article about Juan Nicasio looked intriguing:

 

 

 

 

Crazy Prediction: Juan Nicasio Will Have A Breakout Year In Relief

The first time through Nicasio as a starter, hitters slash .250/.321/.433; Nicasio shows a 22.3% strikeout rate and 8.9% walk rate. Those aren’t Cy Young Award-worthy stats, but it’s respectable enough.

As the lineup turns over, though, the jig is up. The second time (.304/.355/.498) and third time (.299/.365/.484), as hitters became familiar with Nicasio, they hit him hard. His strikeout rate (15.4% and 12.7%, respectively) declines, too, indicating his stuff is figured out pretty quickly. That’s not unique to Nicasio; it happens to virtually every pitcher to one degree or another.

But Nicasio is respectable enough the first time through a lineup, mitigates walks, and misses bats enough to be intriguing as a reliever. The Rockies thought enough of that to have him throw 19 games in relief last year; opponents hit .227/.275/.400 in 80 plate appearances. Nicasio struck out 21.3% of batters he faced in relief and walked only 6.3%. A small sample size for sure, but his relief numbers were even better than his first time through a lineup as a starter.           

 He basically throws two pitches: a fastball 72.2% of the time that averages 92.7 MPH, and an 83.6 MPH slider he throws 21% of the time. He’s shown a changeup in the past, but its use declined to just 5.2% in 2014. As a reliever, he should scrap it except in certain situations against left-handed hitters.

Remember: Nicasio’s 92.7 MPH average fastball velocity came across 69 starts and 19 relief appearances. He’ll likely throw significantly harder in short stints if he’s used exclusively in relief, possibly allowing an increased strikeout rate and better peripheral numbers. Couple that with his 44.6% groundball rate, and you’ve got an interesting arm in the bullpen.

Very few starting pitchers can be effective with only two pitches; Nicasio’s career has shown he cannot survive in the rotation by throwing a fastball-slider combination up to 95% of the time as he did in 2014. But his velocity and pitch offerings, combined with his numbers the first time through a lineup, indicate he’d profile well as a reliever.

 

 

 

 

By contrast to Nicasios' 21.3% K-rate/6.3% BB-rate, the Twins RPs had a combined 17.3% K-rate/7.3% BB-Rate, the worst in baseball by far. Other than Perkins, the only current Twin RP close to Nicasio is Fien with a 19.6% K-rate. 

 

And in contrast to the Twins' RP OBA of .262 and OPS of .723, you have Nicasio 's RP numbers in rarefied Coors Field:  OBA- .227   OPS- .675

 

I'm not saying that this is the exact guy to demand- even if the numbers suggest he could be the guy to get you to the 8th inning, plus he only costs $2.3M this year with three years of team  control- it's just that the Dodgers can afford to be less cautious about wholesale-priced moves of their well-stocked and easily-replenished assets. 

[USNMCPO]

 

I like the first idea,  but I would include Pinto in that trade, who would be expandable.  Trading Sano instead of Plouffe does not make much sense.  Every team that moved their top prospect has regretted it and it has always been done to win now.  The Red Sox are the masters of regret (Schilling, Bagwell, HanRam).  You got to trade players at (or close to) the peak of the careers and Plouffe might be there.  Sano can anchor the Twins lineup for years, in the manner that the Killer and Kirby did.  Since Kirby's retirement, the Twins lack that player and has been painful.  Sano is that kind of talent.  You don't trade that.  Plouffe on the other hand...

Red Sox - Ruth? OK I guess that was too long ago.

[jay]

I was talking about moving Escobar with a Nolasco(who does not seem to want to be here) not a bottom of the rotation starter.

Nolasco is a bottom of the rotation starter...

[jay]

But the Twins don't need to make those kind of trades right now. They can wait and see where they need the help while the Buxton/Sano nucleus is forming.

This.

 

Right now is not the time to be trading away players that are cost controlled for multiple years and have had MLB success. That's smells like a perpetual rebuild in a hurry.

[Hugh Morris]

I really hope we get some names quickly, because otherwise this is headed for a repeat of the Willingham situation where the Twins either:

 

A: Refuse to trade a average-to-good player coming off of a career year where regression seems inevitable because the front office believes that they know better than everyone else

or

B: Can't find anyone offering them worthwhile value for an average-to-good player coming off of a career year where regression seems inevitable because as it turns out, other GMs can notice that too.

_{(you know, depending on your view of the front office)}

 

But who knows, maybe I'll get lucky and they'll trade him. Then we can get the JJ Hardy situation again where a player is traded to one of the few teams willing to offer anything and spend years kvetching about the minuscule return.

 

There is no idiot in the room with GMs. If there was, this deal would have been made many times over. Nobody is giving up a player who'd reach our top 10 in exchange for Escobar+Nolasco (and Swarzak, _{err... who is the org-filler guy we're throwing in hypothetical trades now?}). Barring a cash-strapped contender having a pair of injuries, nobody is giving someone who'd crack our top 10 for Escobar+Gibson. Ideally? Escobar+Hicks(or Shafer) might get us back a defensively sound CF who can hit some leadoff too. But that player will have his own warts.

[Parker Hageman]

I'll dispute one thing with Parker's analysis--Escobar has a plus arm.

 

 

I guess it depends on what you use to measure "arm". Quick release and accuracy, sure. He's decent there. Velocity? From everything I've seen he's average in that regard. I'm surprised Baseball Prospectus said in 2011 that he had a "plus-plus arm" and a "cannon arm" in 2012. If it is measured by the first two, sure. Velocity? It doesn't compare to Danny Santana's arm? No. 

 

Here's a small sample-size of double play videos (there's not much for Santana available in any capacity really) but I think you can see the difference in method:

 

Santana:

http://m.mlb.com/video/v36286081/detmin-dozier-santana-combine-on-great-double-play

http://m.mlb.com/video/v32661731/mincle-colabello-santana-combine-to-turn-two/?c_id=mlb

 

Escobar:

http://m.mlb.com/video/v34419995/minsea-twins-turn-two-to-eliminate-a-leadoff-single/?c_id=mlb

http://m.mlb.com/video/v34603259/tbmin-dozier-fields-a-grounder-turns-double-play/?c_id=mlb

 

Here's the thing that I think speaks towards why he's considered a "plus-arm" by some: Escobar could be packing heat -- http://m.mlb.com/video/v34422635/minsea-perkins-retires-bloomquist-earns-the-save/?c_id=mlb (this isn't bad) http://m.mlb.com/video/v33798477/minbos-escobar-backhands-it-and-makes-a-great-throw/?c_id=mlb (neither is this) -- but he doesn't use it much. In those DP turns above, Escobar loves to flip throw -- accurate but he almost misses Longoria because he went a little too casual. Meanwhile Santana throws gas across the infield. Santana's demonstrated that he's more prone to throwing errors trying to use that arm (but I think you will find that he can clip a few more runners and go further into the 5.5 hole than Escobar). 

 

[jorgenswest]

The twins don't need "hole-pluggers"--they need top talent. Signing free-agents at that level isn't "in the cards" right now, so they must trade for it. Trades of multiple players for one player, is the most likely way to acquire said talent.

 

While I agree, Sano or Buxton need to be part of those multiple to get true top talent.

 

Decline phase players on big contracts can't be given away. The Twins would get more for Escobar alone than they would for Escobar and Nolasco. Escobar combined with a Sano and a Gonzalves will get you something. I am not advocating for this trade but just pointing out that it is going to take multiple upside players and a true top prospect to get top talent.

[jokin]

 

While I agree, Sano or Buxton need to be part of those multiple to get true top talent.

Decline phase players on big contracts can't be given away. The Twins would get more for Escobar alone than they would for Escobar and Nolasco. Escobar combined with a Sano and a Gonzalves will get you something. I am not advocating for this trade but just pointing out that it is going to take multiple upside players and a true top prospect to get top talent.

 

As I noted above, the Dodgers essentially gave Dan Haren away and paid all of his 2015 salary, besides- in exchange for some decent Marlin role players.  If the Twins would be willing to eat some contract dollars, deals are still do-able.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm ok dealing Escobar if people want to pay him for the production of last year continuing.  Since I doubt that is going to happen, he's probably more valuable to keep.

[kab21]

I would trade Escobar for a borderline top 100 prospect.  Someone like Franklin Barreto that was part of the Josh Donaldson deal or someone like the Twins own Gonsalves that could be a big riser in prospect lists.  If you can't at least get that kind of value for him then you keep him because he is actually a decent player.  But imo he isn't an average starter at SS but a guy that can play there if needed.

[stringer bell]

Another factor in this saga is that Escobar missed the Super 2 cutoff by a couple of days. He will be paid serf wages this year. Next year, he'll be eligible for arbitration.

[Willihammer]

 

We were standing around in the clubhouse the morning or two before Patrick's article came out on Escobar. I posed the question to them, rhetorically, and I tweeted it a couple of weeks ago to. I'd love for someone to do the research. Has any 25-year-old shortstop ever put up the numbers that Escobar did in 2014 (.720ish OPS - OPS+ may be better too look at because of the era - with 35 doubles) and not been just handed the starting job the following season?

 

I can't imagine it's happened too much.

 

As one of the other writers said, I believe Phil Miller, "That's the power of the label." 

 

Escobar has always been deemed a utility player. He came up with the White Sox as a late-inning defensive replacement because they saw him as a utility guy. I think he can be a solid MLB shortstop.

 

I also think most organizations view him as a utility guy, so I don't think they would get much for him in trade.

FWIW I did a quick search through SS's with min. 400 PA's since 2008 in that span, everyone who put up a 102 wRC+ or better started the next year.

[diehardtwinsfan]

The Twins need above average players across the diamond as well as on the mound. They haven't had a lot of that the last four years, which is why they've been so bad.

 

Escobar, believe it or not, was an above average SS both offensively and defensively. Santana was above average offensively, but he never played SS. Both are certainly candidates for regression, but this is the second season where Eduardo has hit quite well for an extended period of time. I think Escobar's issue has more to do with longevity than talent as he wore down in 2013 and again last year (though to a lesser extent). Would I trade him? For the right price.

 

Personally, I'd probably put Santana in AAA to see if the bat is for real and let Escobar run out there every day in the short term. But if the team is sold on Santana, then switching Escobar to a utility role is both unfair to him and minimizes his value to the Twins. As a starting SS, he has value... and quite a bit. As for a trade, if you packaged him with say Nolasco, just understand that he's being used to get out from under a bad contract, so the return is going to be underwhelming. As for a trade, I'd trade him for just about anyone that Sickles rates at a B or higher. Those aren't bad prospects (Kepler, for instance was a borderline B- prospect whose final grade was a C+), and I think a lot of people would be happy to get a Kepler like prospect for him.