Unwritten Rules are Not Smart

[gunnarthor]

  mike wants wins said:

Might as well get mad at the weather, then. And how do we know what Thome or gomez or any other bat flipper is thinking? And who cares if Gomez is flipping his bat like I flip my middle finger? Why let any of that bother you? No one is actually hurt by this action, we don't know the motivation for the action, and yet people condone throwing projectiles at others at high speeds to keep them in line.

 

I think this discussion got off the rails a bit. So here's my thoughts - in the Gomez/Cole instance, Cole clearly thought Gomez was showboating and cursed at him. Cole isn't a mind reader so it's possible that Gomez wasn't trying to do that but pretty much everyone who saw the video disagrees. As for why that would bother Cole, my guess is that athletes in the middle of competition aren't the clear thinkers you or I are when we are driving around and some kid flips us the bird - read all the Richard Sherman articles after the NFC championship game for more on that. Back to the incident - Gomez escalated it and a fight started. No one threw a baseball at anyone.

 

As for the idea of throwing balls at hitters, it's part of the codes because, while it hurts, it very rarely injures. Usually, the people hurt by HBP weren't hit intentionally. Pitchers are taught to aim at the meat of the player (usually the back or a thigh). I cannot remember any instance of player being hurt by a retaliatory HBP.

[TheLeviathan]

  gunnarthor said:

Again, that's not true. Fights happen in every sport for many different reasons but showing up an opponent (disrespecting an opponent in some form) is common in all. Baseball has one advantage (disadvantage?) in that they play 162 games in a season and maybe a team will have one real fight a year and maybe 3 things where the benches empty and nothing happens. This little clip on youtube shows a few fights from last season in the NFL and the Giants were involved in at least two in only a 16 game schedule.

Ditto with the NBA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au5B5v4qBDY

 

You seem to be struggling to grasp the problem here. The problem isn't that they are fighting. All sports have unnecessary fighting happen. So let's get off that.

 

What you just did was use two compilation videos as evidence that other leagues fight for taunting. I can tell you that a healthy share of the scraps in those videos had literally nothing to do with taunting. Many of the football ones were because of physicality that lasted past the whistle. That is not in the same universe as standing and admiring a homerun and I'm not sure how you can think it is.

 

So let me again make this distinction clear: In football hitting after the whistle is illegal. Sometimes it causes fighting to break out because guys aren't respecting that actual rule that keeps people safe. In baseball you can get assaulted because you stole a base. Not because you cleated someone on your way in. Not because you threw your shoe at the pitcher before you took off. Not for any other reason than stealing a base - something totally 100% legal to do in the sport.

 

Likewise you can drop a bunt and be assaulted. (I find it laughable that you'd use the "well they're only kinda hurting them" excuse about beanings) Not that you dropped a bunt and karate kicked the catcher. Not dropped a bunt and gave a forearm shiver to the guy fielding it. Just...friggin...dropped...a...bunt....attempt. That's enough to get you thrown at.

 

ONLY in baseball is there an entire set of rules in contradiction to the actual rules that justify assaulting one another. In the rest of the leagues fighting generally only happens when the actual rules are violated dangerously by an opponent.

[Squirrel]

IMHO, retaliation is just wrong. I don't care if it's for one of those 'unwritten' rules thing or for showboating or for whatever. And yes, I think flipping your bat, and slow trotting around the bases, and jawing at people as if to say 'look at me' and 'in your face' is rude and is poor sportsmanship. That person needs to be set down a peg or two by their manager or by their colleagues. But starting a brawl over it? No. Getting thrown at? NO. And the bunt issue? That is even more wrong, imo, if there can be degrees to wrong. Playing the game, no matter what the score, and getting thrown at for just playing the game? Double wrong.

[gunnarthor]

  TheLeviathan said:

You seem to be struggling to grasp the problem here. The problem isn't that they are fighting. All sports have unnecessary fighting happen. So let's get off that.

 

What you just did was use two compilation videos as evidence that other leagues fight for taunting. I can tell you that a healthy share of the scraps in those videos had literally nothing to do with taunting. Many of the football ones were because of physicality that lasted past the whistle. That is not in the same universe as standing and admiring a homerun and I'm not sure how you can think it is.

 

So let me again make this distinction clear: In football hitting after the whistle is illegal. Sometimes it causes fighting to break out because guys aren't respecting that actual rule that keeps people safe. In baseball you can get assaulted because you stole a base. Not because you cleated someone on your way in. Not because you threw your shoe at the pitcher before you took off. Not for any other reason than stealing a base - something totally 100% legal to do in the sport.

 

Likewise you can drop a bunt and be assaulted. (I find it laughable that you'd use the "well they're only kinda hurting them" excuse about beanings) Not that you dropped a bunt and karate kicked the catcher. Not dropped a bunt and gave a forearm shiver to the guy fielding it. Just...friggin...dropped...a...bunt....attempt. That's enough to get you thrown at.

 

ONLY in baseball is there an entire set of rules in contradiction to the actual rules that justify assaulting one another. In the rest of the leagues fighting generally only happens when the actual rules are violated dangerously by an opponent.

 

I understand your point but I think you are being purposefully difficult on this. First, most of those fights certainly started with perceived disrespect coming from one party - it's just harder to read lips in the NFL. The NBA clip was better at that. But at a certain point, this becomes a little over the top. Now it's "assaulted"? And the problem isn't that there's an assault but it's an assault for something that didn't break an "actual rule?" Do we forgive the hockey players hitting each other with sticks b/c there was an actual rule broken, so it's not an "assault" anymore? You see how this is getting insane, right?

 

At the end of the day, you don't like unwritten rules that enforce a certain code of conduct. That's fine. That's how you feel. But that's not the reality of MLB (and all the other sports). And you are ok with an unwritten code of conduct that enforces certain ACTUAL violations. ("I'm generally in agreement, however, I'd rather the team only retaliate for ACTUAL rule violations.") So that's a different code but it is a code.

 

Also, these hypothetical you're throwing our aren't really accurate. First, players aren't getting beaned at all. Second, players aren't upset b/c of a stolen base or a bat flip or whatever. What is upsetting them is an obvious disrespect by the opponent in the form of a bat flip or stolen base. Some call it taunting, others say "not respecting the game." But it means the same thing and some version of it is alive in all sports.

 

And, as an aside, what actual rules can baseball players break? This isn't football where you have holding or clipping etc. There aren't really penalties in baseball.

[TheLeviathan]

  gunnarthor said:

Now it's "assaulted"?

 

Assault is the use of threats or violence to hurt another person. What is throwing a heater at someone's ribcage meant to do if not hurt or threaten them?

 

  Quote

You see how this is getting insane, right?

 

It is only "insane" because you've done all sorts of contortions to fit every fight that happens in a sport under some strange, ridiculously broad definition of celebrate/taunt. You refuse to compare apples to apples and keep setting up all these baseless comparisons to somehow save your argument.

 

Hockey players hitting each other with a stick is not the same as a guy admiring a homerun. Have you ever seen a hockey player celebrate a goal and then get assaulted for doing so? Ever see a dunk celebration or football celebration retaliated, in that moment, on the field? I can't and it's certainly insanely uncommon if it ever has. In baseball we get dozens of them every year for nothing more than celebrating an accomplishment. That's an apples to apples comparison.

 

A few quick hitters: yes, players are being beaned - by both pitches and fists these days. Second, they are upset by the act. The act is important because it illustrates how absurd the unwritten rules are. You want the other team of professionals to stop doing certain arbitrary things at arbitrary points in the game based on arbitrary perceptions of when a game is out of hand. And in that mess of arbitrary nonsense you act like a petulant child should anyone offend your nonsensical perception of being slighted.

 

No other sport has that system. And, as the thread says, it's not smart. As evidenced by what a clown Porter and many others will look like this year. All it does is indulge whiners with no coping skills and makes them feel justified in acting like clowns.

[Guest USAFChief]

  TheLeviathan said:

I think this bears repeating because this is the crux of my issue:

 

ONLY in baseball does a brawl erupt because you did something perfectly within the rules. (Like..bunt against a shift. Or steal a base with a lead)

 

Oh for pete's sake.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIU%E2%80%93Miami_football_brawl

 

How many more should I post?

 

Baseball probably has the fewest fights/brawls of any of the major sports, and when they do, they mostly go out on the field and mill around for a few minutes.

[Guest USAFChief]

"Assault is the use of threats or violence to hurt another person. What is throwing a heater at someone's ribcage meant to do if not hurt or threaten them?"

 

Context is important.

 

Otherwise, MMA fighters would all be in jail. Linebackers who run at top speed at a quarterback, lower their shoulder into his chest, and drive him backwards into the ground would be charged with assault. Roger Federer would be arrested for propelling a tennis ball directly at another humun at over 120MPH!

 

 

​

[TheLeviathan]

  USAFChief said:

Oh for pete's sake.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIU%E2%80%93Miami_football_brawl

 

How many more should I post?

 

Baseball probably has the fewest fights/brawls of any of the major sports, and when they do, they mostly go out on the field and mill around for a few minutes.

 

You utterly ignored the important distinction. So I'll post it again with the section bolded:

 

ONLY in baseball does a brawl erupt because you did something perfectly within the rules. (Like..bunt against a shift. Or steal a base with a lead)

This isn't about which sport has the most fights. It isn't about whether or not it's right for baseball players to brawl. (That issue has only been stressed because one poster comically chided the idea of youngsters emulating showboating while simultaneously endorsing horrific conflict resolution skills like "throw a baseball at em!") It's not even about how players on the field react to slights. (Though I'd argue the notion we'd compare football to baseball absurd. Baseball's physicality is more akin to a fierce game of Bridge than it is to Football. So the comparison is again poor)

 

The issue is that baseball players have concocted a set of faux rules that are often in complete disagreement with the game's actual rules and play, all so that it can justify them acting like petulant clowns. How their petulant, clownish behavior manifests (fights, beanings, bench clearing squawk fests) is utterly irrelevant. The problem is there is a system of juvenile "rules" to justify people acting like children.

[Guest USAFChief]

The football brawl above started because players felt they were being dissed, which is perfectly within the rules.

[TheLeviathan]

  USAFChief said:

The football brawl above started because players felt they were being dissed, which is perfectly within the rules.

 

Well...no. I count in your link a penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct starting it and then physicality broke out after the whistle. (Also against the rules) Here is the relevant part you apparently missed where rules were indeed violated:

 

With 9 minutes left in the 3rd quarter, Miami H-back James Bryant caught a 5-yard touchdown pass from quarterback Kyle Wright, making the score 13-0 Miami. After scoring, Bryant pointed towards Miami's West End zone. Bryant, who later transferred to the University of Louisville, was called for unsportsmanlike conduct.

During the ensuing PAT attempt, FIU safety Chris Smith wrestled Miami holder Matt Perelli to the ground after the kick and appeared to punch him in the chin. FIU cornerback, Marshall McDuffie, Jr., kicked Perelli in the head.^[3]

 

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

So violence in baseball is ok because there is violence in the NFL? Not really a strong argument, frankly.

[gunnarthor]

Apparently violence in football is ok so long as their was an actual rulebook violation.

[Fatt Crapps]

There's no winning them over, Levi.

[TheLeviathan]

  gunnarthor said:

Apparently violence in football is ok so long as their was an actual rulebook violation.

 

I never made the "violence is wrong" argument. I made the "unwritten rules are dumb" argument. The violence angle came in (for the second time) when some basically said this:

 

 

to the idea of children showboating as a justification for throwing hard, 80-90 mph objects at people.

 

The problem with the unwritten rules isn't the violence...it's the utterly ridiculous reasons for committing it.

[Turd Furgeson]

  TheLeviathan said:

You seem to be struggling to grasp the problem here. The problem isn't that they are fighting. All sports have unnecessary fighting happen. So let's get off that.

 

What you just did was use two compilation videos as evidence that other leagues fight for taunting. I can tell you that a healthy share of the scraps in those videos had literally nothing to do with taunting. Many of the football ones were because of physicality that lasted past the whistle. That is not in the same universe as standing and admiring a homerun and I'm not sure how you can think it is.

 

So let me again make this distinction clear: In football hitting after the whistle is illegal. Sometimes it causes fighting to break out because guys aren't respecting that actual rule that keeps people safe. In baseball you can get assaulted because you stole a base. Not because you cleated someone on your way in. Not because you threw your shoe at the pitcher before you took off. Not for any other reason than stealing a base - something totally 100% legal to do in the sport.

 

Likewise you can drop a bunt and be assaulted. (I find it laughable that you'd use the "well they're only kinda hurting them" excuse about beanings) Not that you dropped a bunt and karate kicked the catcher. Not dropped a bunt and gave a forearm shiver to the guy fielding it. Just...friggin...dropped...a...bunt....attempt. That's enough to get you thrown at.

 

ONLY in baseball is there an entire set of rules in contradiction to the actual rules that justify assaulting one another. In the rest of the leagues fighting generally only happens when the actual rules are violated dangerously by an opponent.

 

Fights break out in football and basketball because of trash talking. That's probably the closest example. It's not against the rules to trash talk, but people still get offended and can react.

 

Anyway, it's not an apples to apples comparison. In basketball and football there's a lot of contact with your opponents. A lot of opportunities to get away with small things like holding, shoving what have you that are against the rules that the refs don't always see. It's generally not the same in baseball.

 

I never advocate throwing a pitch at someone's head, sticking one in the lower part of their back if they've done something really offensive though, I don't necessarily disagree with.

[TheLeviathan]

  Turd Furgeson said:

I never advocate throwing a pitch at someone's head, sticking one in the lower part of their back if they've done something really offensive though, I don't necessarily disagree with.

 

The "really offensive" part is the issue. The unwritten rules are full of things that are completely mundane. You know....like trying to bunt for a hit. Or staring at your homerun for a second or two. Or standing "too close" to the batters box line.

 

Baseball players get petulant for what is best compared in football to a spike after a touchdown. Or flexing after a dunk. Or jumping into the boards after a goal. Imagine football players starting a fight on the field because a running back took the ball for 10 yards when the faux rules say he should lay down after 5. Or equally preposterous notions.

 

The unwritten rules have nothing to do with egregious offenses. They are a system of justifications for the exact opposite - free reign to act like a fool over nothing.

[gunnarthor]

Don't really want to continue this discussion at this point, BUT the Astros keep mucking up the rules. I find it hilarious. http://thebaseballcodes.com/2014/04/25/throw-at-me-once/

 

Off topic, I think these Astros might actual be worse than last years team. I can't figure out how they won 7 games.

[Fatt Crapps]

What a piece of ****.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/carlos-gomez-gives-2-hugs-to-adoring-fan-181744777.html?vp=1

[TheLeviathan]

  Fatt Crapps said:

What a piece of ****.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/carlos-gomez-gives-2-hugs-to-adoring-fan-181744777.html?vp=1

 

No amount of child hugging or baby kissing will change the fact that this borderline monster had the audacity to appreciate his own accomplishment for two seconds.

 

Someone should've thrown a baseball at him during this to remind him of that.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I'm sure that girl was a well paid actor and the whole thing was orchestrated by Gomez's own personal PR staff who bribed the cameraman -- it's amazing the broadcast team fell for it.

 

seriously though, it's really hard to find anyone in this world who is either pure hero or pure villain. Gomez happens to wear it on his sleeve.

[gunnarthor]

  TheLeviathan said:

No amount of child hugging or baby kissing will change the fact that this borderline monster had the audacity to appreciate his own accomplishment for two seconds.

 

Someone should've thrown a baseball at him during this to remind him of that.

 

The funny thing about this whole thread is that no one ever threw a baseball at Gomez. He did throw a helmet at someone but reading Levi's posts you'd think that Gomez was an innocent victim of some headhunters.

[TheLeviathan]

  gunnarthor said:

The funny thing about this whole thread is that no one ever threw a baseball at Gomez. He did throw a helmet at someone but reading Levi's posts you'd think that Gomez was an innocent victim of some headhunters.

 

He has been before. As have many others.

 

In fact, as is the topic of this thread, someone was thrown at for BUNTING. IN THE FIRST INNING!!! Against a shift!!!!!!!

 

I'm not sure I could've come up with anything more asinine than that as an example and it actually happened! That's the essence of the unwritten rules - petulant clowns trying to make a code to justify their nonsense.

 

Personally, I think Gomez went into that second hug for selfish reasons - he was totally getting off on how much he was loved. Someone should bean him for enjoying himself.

[a-wan]

I am more shocked that someone would cry over hugging Carlos Gomez. Derek Jeter? Sure, I'd sell my first born to hug Captain America, but Gomez?

[cmathewson]

I'm more concerned when teams throw at players for competitive reasons. As I said before, it sure seemed like Masterson was trying to hurt Willingham by repeatedly throwing at him. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you remove the other team's best hitter for half a season by breaking his wrist, you have a better chance to beat that team in the division.

[TheLeviathan]

  cmathewson said:

I'm more concerned when teams throw at players for competitive reasons. As I said before, it sure seemed like Masterson was trying to hurt Willingham by repeatedly throwing at him. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you remove the other team's best hitter for half a season by breaking his wrist, you have a better chance to beat that team in the division.

 

These are the things that happen when you develop a code that justifies petulant behavior. That's part of what makes them so obtuse.

[Guest USAFChief]

So the working theory is that Masterson, who thinks Willingham is the Twins best hitter, repeatedly threw at him, until with pinpoint accuracy was able to hit and fracture a tiny bone in his wrist, and did so because obtuse unwritten rules justify his petulant behavior? And further, said unwritten rules do not allow the Twins to retaliate, or even mention to the media the intentional maiming of said hitter?

[cmathewson]

  USAFChief said:

So the working theory is that Masterson, who thinks Willingham is the Twins best hitter, repeatedly threw at him, until with pinpoint accuracy was able to hit and fracture a tiny bone in his wrist, and did so because obtuse unwritten rules justify his petulant behavior? And further, said unwritten rules do not allow the Twins to retaliate, or even mention to the media the intentional maiming of said hitter?

 

No, I just think he was throwing at him. He brushed him back three times and hit him with Ball 4. It was an accident that he fractured his wrist. But if you throw at guys, accidents will happen.

[TheLeviathan]

  USAFChief said:

So the working theory is that Masterson, who thinks Willingham is the Twins best hitter, repeatedly threw at him, until with pinpoint accuracy was able to hit and fracture a tiny bone in his wrist, and did so because obtuse unwritten rules justify his petulant behavior? And further, said unwritten rules do not allow the Twins to retaliate, or even mention to the media the intentional maiming of said hitter?

 

Makes about as much sense as any unwritten rule I've seen in baseball. (Not that I buy that in this case)

[Willihammer]

I will have to go back and look at the PA but it wouldn't surprise me if anyone threw at Hammer. He's among the most hit batters because he hogs the plate.

[Willihammer]

  cmathewson said:

No, I just think he was throwing at him. He brushed him back three times and hit him with Ball 4. It was an accident that he fractured his wrist. But if you throw at guys, accidents will happen.

He hit him with ball 3 after getting ahead 1-2.

 

1 out in the first, 0-0 score. Mauer standing on 1st base. Masterson hung a curveball inner half and Hammer check swung at it as it hit him. Definitely not intentional.