April 21, 201412 yr I'm actually okay with going after guys for showboating and general douchebaggery. But trying to get his team back in a game? Of course not. Ridiculous. I'm with you on this. There was a time when excessive shifts were considered douchery. Beating them certainly should not be considered douchery. But the Gomez bat flips should result in a brush back. I thought the Indians were throwing at our guys (when they broke Willingham's wrist). I was disappointed we didn't respond in some way.
April 21, 201412 yr The fact that the Gardy and "the Twins" defended the perpetrator instead of defending their own player and not turning belly up to the Yankee jersey like they did, does not mean that the slide was clean, it means that Gardy and "the Twins" lack fortitude. And you can see the result in the standings and the scoreboard when they play the Yankees. I can respect that opinion, so long as you are consistent and rip the Twins when they try to break up the double play.
April 21, 201412 yr I don't know if it's an unwritten rule exclusive to baseball. I played 3 sports in high school and we 'got back' at others in a way that let the other team know we were to be respected, even if we were not in that game. Same with war or anything else, look at Sept 11. Was it smart to get involved in that war for really any other reason other than, a retaliation that says, "we won't tolerate this type of behavior" or we'll respond. Those are just ways you keep another team honest. It's like a child or a kid cheating on a test. You may not be able to re-route the behavior entirely, but you gave a response to that stimulus. 7-0 makes it a little tougher, but if ANYONE played the shift on me, I'd bat 1.000 (minus user error - me) and bunt the crap out of them. I realize in marriage and in friendships, it's best you don't respond. But in many other cases, I'd subscribe to the 'high and tight' next time around mentality.
April 22, 201412 yr Author Shame part of this thread was lost. We were just getting into what an egregious act it is for professionals to flip their bat and kids might take after them. (Truly horrifying) But it's perfectly acceptable to accost and assault those you don't agree with to teach them a lesson about celebrating. Maybe all my extensive work with kids has created a blind spot...but I'm pretty sure those same impressionable youngsters watch major leaguers pout and throw baseballs 90 mph at each other because their feelings are hurt. So we're ok with kids picking up the "violence is a good way to solve your problems" message as long as they aren't showy about their success?
April 22, 201412 yr Agree with theleviathan......the debate had just gotten interesting, that violence and petulance are ok, but celebrating a big hit are not......
April 22, 201412 yr Shame part of this thread was lost. We were just getting into what an egregious act it is for professionals to flip their bat and kids might take after them. (Truly horrifying) But it's perfectly acceptable to accost and assault those you don't agree with to teach them a lesson about celebrating. Maybe all my extensive work with kids has created a blind spot...but I'm pretty sure those same impressionable youngsters watch major leaguers pout and throw baseballs 90 mph at each other because their feelings are hurt. So we're ok with kids picking up the "violence is a good way to solve your problems" message as long as they aren't showy about their success? Just so long as your rip the other sports for the same thing.
April 22, 201412 yr Just so long as your rip the other sports for the same thing. And the evening news.
April 22, 201412 yr And cartoons ... Except the news is not making the stuff happening, it is saying what happened.....all the last three posts are...are logical fallacies about why we can't rip baseball for violence.
April 22, 201412 yr Except the news is not making the stuff happening, it is saying what happened.....all the last three posts are...are logical fallacies about why we can't rip baseball for violence. And the evidence that baseball makes violence happen is what; because people in this thread say so?
April 22, 201412 yr Author Just so long as your rip the other sports for the same thing. I would rip the news, but the rest aren't equivalent issues. In other sports there is thuggery and brawling (the vast majority of which I don't condone, but at least understand) but it is almost exclusively in retaliation for rule violations the refs didn't catch. Only in baseball do they punish celebrating on the field or other made-up rules because of awful cases of butthurt. It doesn't happen in football. (The league fines, but only for egregious celebrating) It doesn't happen in hockey. (Goal celebrations are common) And it doesn't happen in basketball unless it's egregious. ONLY in baseball does celebrating an achievement warrant violence. ONLY in baseball does a brawl erupt because you did something perfectly within the rules. (Like..bunt against a shift. Or steal a base with a lead) So no, I won't rip the other sports. Baseball is uniquely obnoxious in this regard.
April 22, 201412 yr I tend to agree with Dan Gladden, who mentions from time to time on the air, that the score board will dictate a few things. Whether it is bunting for a hit in the first inning, bunting to break up a no hitter, stealing bases with a big lead, showboating a solo homer with a big lead or if you are down a few runs, all of these depend on what the situation is. It seems that the umps are kind of stepping in early and when they issue a warning when someone gets hit. It used to be that if a guy hits a homer and admires it, he gets hit the next time. The next inning, the lead off guy gets hit and it ended. Now they issue a warning without being able to get one back. If it goes beyond that, step in. Let the players police themselves.
April 22, 201412 yr Only in baseball do they punish celebrating on the field or other made-up rules because of awful cases of butthurt. It doesn't happen in football. (The league fines, but only for egregious celebrating) It doesn't happen in hockey. (Goal celebrations are common) And it doesn't happen in basketball unless it's egregious. ONLY in baseball does celebrating an achievement warrant violence. Every football game has players pushing and punching each other after the play, usually b/c someone is celebrating their physical achievement over somebody else.
April 22, 201412 yr Author Every football game has players pushing and punching each other after the play, usually b/c someone is celebrating their physical achievement over somebody else. No, pushing and punching usually continues because it's a physical game. Football is a violent game and sometimes that persists beyond the whistle. That's not an apples-to-apples comparison. Baseball interrupts a non-physical game to start altercations about things that aren't even rules violations! The only equivalent I can remember in football to what baseball does is when Owens celebrated on the Dallas 50 yard line and got smeared. That would be a fair comparison.
April 22, 201412 yr Author I think this bears repeating because this is the crux of my issue: ONLY in baseball does a brawl erupt because you did something perfectly within the rules. (Like..bunt against a shift. Or steal a base with a lead)
April 22, 201412 yr And the evidence that baseball makes violence happen is what; because people in this thread say so? I never said it did....the other side is saying showboating and stuff is bad for kids....I'm saying if that is bad, then violence is worse.
April 22, 201412 yr I never said it did....the other side is saying showboating and stuff is bad for kids....I'm saying if that is bad, then violence is worse. And we have to take sides, because?
April 22, 201412 yr I'll repeat this from yesterday......if there was a work environment where people got verbally abused for wearing blue shirts (for no reason other than it has always been that way)....would people here defend that? Because that's what people are doing..... defending throwing dangerous objects at people that celebrate an achievement.
April 22, 201412 yr And we have to take sides, because? Most arguments have sides, that doesn't mean that we can't respect each other, or like each other, it means that we are arguing sides on a position.
April 22, 201412 yr Most arguments have sides, that doesn't mean that we can't respect each other, or like each other, it means that we are arguing sides on a position. Is that an unwritten rule?
April 22, 201412 yr Is that an unwritten rule? It's written: http://twinsdaily.com/showthread.php/8837-Twins-Daily-Comment-Policy-latest-revision-September-2013
April 22, 201412 yr It's written: http://twinsdaily.com/showthread.php/8837-Twins-Daily-Comment-Policy-latest-revision-September-2013 Then it must be smart.
April 22, 201412 yr I think this bears repeating because this is the crux of my issue: ONLY in baseball does a brawl erupt because you did something perfectly within the rules. (Like..bunt against a shift. Or steal a base with a lead) Again, that's not true. Fights happen in every sport for many different reasons but showing up an opponent (disrespecting an opponent in some form) is common in all. Baseball has one advantage (disadvantage?) in that they play 162 games in a season and maybe a team will have one real fight a year and maybe 3 things where the benches empty and nothing happens. This little clip on youtube shows a few fights from last season in the NFL and the Giants were involved in at least two in only a 16 game schedule. Ditto with the NBA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au5B5v4qBDY
April 22, 201412 yr Or one could say: Baseball, along with golf, amateur wrestling, and tennis, has a history of good manners. Baseball, more so than basketball, soccer, or football, is a team sport in which there are intense individual duels, batter against pitcher. I think in a sport, the more individuals are pitted against individuals, the more good manners are required, such as no showing up the other individual. I may be totally off base here, but I wonder.
April 22, 201412 yr Again, how is it bad manners to flip your bat? Intrinsically, how is it bad manners? How does it show them up? HE was celebrating a big hit, he wasnt' saying "you suck"..... And I don't care about other sports, we don't need to fix every sport before we can fix only 1 sport.....that's just an attempt to fix nothing because we can't fix everything. It's an awful way to run the world.
April 22, 201412 yr Again, how is it bad manners to flip your bat? Intrinsically, how is it bad manners? How does it show them up? HE was celebrating a big hit, he wasnt' saying "you suck"..... It's a gesture that has a real meaning behind it that the players understand. Most gestures, if you just ignored it or didn't know what it meant, mean nothing. A bat flip might not mean anything to you but it sure has meaning to the players on the field.
April 22, 201412 yr Might as well get mad at the weather, then. And how do we know what Thome or gomez or any other bat flipper is thinking? And who cares if Gomez is flipping his bat like I flip my middle finger? Why let any of that bother you? No one is actually hurt by this action, we don't know the motivation for the action, and yet people condone throwing projectiles at others at high speeds to keep them in line.
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