chopper0080

I don't know what else to say, and I have not seen anyone give any semblence of a reason that four 90 loss seasons is not a failure by the entire organization. There has yet to be anyone to express that Ryan was not aware of the rules he was playing with when he took the job. No one restricted the organizations ability to acquire talent other than the Twins themselves. How can that be an excuse. In a sport where rules have been implemented to maintain parity, people are arguing it takes 6 years to build a competitive team. Over half a decade, and where large market teams no longer dominate the post season. The days of the evil Yankees using teams as their farm system are over. The days of buying teams are over. Gone are the guady home run numbers. In the era of pitching, defense, and timely hitting the Twins are losing 90 games. We are a team that has gotten rid of Carlos Gomez, JJ Hardy, Justin Morneau, MIchael Cuddyer, Denard Span, Ben Revere, Josh Willingham (who I have been assured belongs on this list), Carl Pavano, and Joe Nathan. What did we get in return? What outside talent do we have on our roster to show for our four year plight? Nolasco, Hughes, and Suzuki. Alex Meyer and Trevor May. Is that really what should be considered a win after four offseasons to work with? How skewed is that perspective? Some of the posters on this board could do that. Seriously. We are four years into a rebuild, and we are just now firing our manager. I have asked it before, but if this isn't failing then what is?

Kemp is a half measure. Use the assets we have in our farm system and on our roster to get Stanton. Get a young superstar, pay him, and let him lead this team going forward. A 6 year extension only pays him until he is 32. The Twins aren't this progressive of thinkers, but it is the movbe to make if you are looking to acquire a young outfielder whose power plays in Target Field.

The Cardinals are a well run franchise, and we are not. It pretty much comes down to that. They don't make excuses, and the Twins do. They don't resist and resent change, and the Twins do. They are versatile in their ways of acquiring talent, and the Twins aren't. The Cardinals (Pujols) aren't affected by fan pressure, and the Twins are (Mauer). I agree, we should emulate the Cardinals. We should spend for quality players, draft well, trade for quality prospects, and trade prospects for quality players.

Well let's make sure that we don't sign anyone until we know for sure. I would hate to stumple upon a competitive team before our prospects are all ready.

OK, let's take this line by line. re: Willingham...either he is quality player, and Ryan failed in moving that for more prospects OR he is an average-at-best player who had little trade value on the market, and Ryan failed to being in a quality player. You can't have it both ways. FAIL re: Nolasco...If he is such a quality player, why was he the worst pitcher on an awful staff? Nolasco was a name, and one that looks like Ryan missed on. Spending money on bad players is just as bad as not spending it in the first place. FAIL re: Suzuki...this is the Willingham situation all over again. Either he is an average-player-at-best and had no trade market OR he had a career year and Ryan failed to move him. In a two more year plan, Suzuki has no value to this team. FAIL and then you talk about the Twins and the holes they have. That is what Ryan has had four years to do, FILL HOLES. That is precisely what he has FAILED to do. regarding Hendriks and Wimmers, it is easy to see their faults now, but these still were projected #3 or #4 starters in a MLB staff. They aren't close to that. Meyer can't throw strikes...how likely is it that he will suddenly turn it around? Berrios is 6'0 tall and a slim frame. Kohl is a raw high school pitcher who is learning how to pitch. Lots of pitfalls in this "better" group ie magic beans.

So the path starts by adding quality players...are you trying to state that Phil Hughes was the first quality free agent available over that time? Of course your aren't. The facts were that we weren't playing the FA game. Self imposed limitations aren't excuses. Ryan took the job KNOWING ownerships views. When you buy a car with 3 tires, you don't get to complain when you wreck driving it. In terms of our farm system rankings...it proves how futile it can be to wait and depend on these players getting to the majors.

I have a tough time believing that two players who hardly played in 2014, improved enough to make the big league roster. Baseball isn't something you really learn and grow by watching. Now, if you are changing your developmental philosophy, and believe that these players are strong enough mentally to be brought up and develop at the major league level do it. You will either crush their confidence, or speed up their developmental process.

1%

First, I wasn't advocating for all of those players. I was making the statement that there are lower-dollar pieces to be added every year in free agency. We have added one in four years. That is a fail in terms of improving the roster. Second, I'm sorry but "IF" and "TWO YEARS" are played out notions after four 90 loss seasons. Once again, I'm not arguing that the Twins are not 2 years away. I'm stating that because we are two years away after four 90 loss seasons, Terry Ryan has failed. A six year rebuilding plan that hinges on the emergence of 6 or 7 prospects is ridiculous. I'm sorry for those of you who can't see that.

Why? What good does it do anyone if the payroll this season is 100 mil vs 70 mil? Maybe by adding a quality starter last year, we don't spend on Nolasco this year. And since when is having too much talent a problem? Why can't the team trade a player when a minor leaguer forces his way up? If you can't trade the player then just cut him. Again, I'm not advocating going on a spending spree. Investing in 30+ year olds is a poor move. However, trading several prospects for young, proven MLB players is a smart move. Adding one or two quality pieces every offseason is a smart move. Basing your plan to compete entirely on the uncertainty of prospects making it to the pros and becoming All Stars is almost certain to fail. There are too many variables along the way. After four years to rebuild this team, Ryan doesn't have us significantly closer to competing other than players at AA ball rather than A ball. If you guys are seriously preaching this to be success, I am curious of your definition of failure.

Are we really touting Josh Willingham as a quality free agent addition? If so, then we failed by not trading him when he had value. You can't have it both ways. Ricky Nolasco looks great so far... Kurt Suzuki...again, if he is a quality player, we failed by not getting something for him. Again, we have have made one quality FA addition in 4 years. In terms of prospects and magic beans...where is Liam Hendricks? Aaron Hicks? Alex Wimmers? Facts are most of these players will not live up to their projections. Some will surprise, but trying to base a plan in terms of winning and competing on the magic year where every star aligns is a fairy tale. It is waiting for those bag of magic beans to sprout. Injuries....Suspensions...Regression...Failure to adapt...all of these are pitfalls for prospects. Sure, some come with less risk than others, but you still can't force the process to develop in the form of a plan. It just doesn't work that way.

1-Self imposed, and it doesn't excuse Ryan. He took the job knowing that is what he was walking into. 2-The only thing that we have which is sustainable is 90 loss seasons. Again, it should never be free agency OR farm system. There is a happy medium which the have ignored. It includes adding quality MLB players, while drafting quality prospects. Buxton, Kohl, Berrios, and Gordon magic beans right now. They have done nothing. Yet none of these players forced Ryan into putting players like Parmalee, Shafer, Correia, Pelrey, Marquis, and Capps, on the field not to mention other awful players.

Ok, so if I had the blueprint, I would be working in the majors, but here is my opinion. Any time a team chooses to take a step back or has to work transitioning from poor contracts or a poor front office, there will naturally be a step back. It can legitimately take a year or two. Here is where I have issues with the Twins. One: They weren't moving on from bad contracts. When people cite payroll, they cite a payroll decrease or less spending. That is a team driven choice. They don't get credit for this IMO because it is self-imposed. Two: What pieces have they added? In four years, what players has the team added other than drafted/signed prospects? Phil Hughes. In four years this team has added one quality MLB player. They have traded away two decent MLB CFs in that time frame as well, though it was for mid level / high talent prospects. IMO, that is pure laziness. Not only have this team not added high profile free agents, we have not even been able so sign average players who other teams want to trade for. Was Nelson Cruz really outside of our price range? Ervin Santana? Scott Kazmir? Jason Vargas? That is just 2013. Melky Cabrera? Mike Napoli? Stephen Drew? These are just the inexpensive ones. Seriously, how can this not be considered a failure? We have added one quality player in 4 years. We have consistently lost MLB talent and failed to replace it. Where is the progress? In the farm system? We have literally sold our cow for a bag of magic beans, and are waiting for them to sprout a beanstalk. That is not how a professional sports franchise should be run.

As a fan, I don't want the labor, show me the baby. Terry Ryan has failed to do that. He has failed to bridge the gap between awful, and whenever the prospects arrive. That is a problem. There are some valid points in this arguement in many regards. 1-FA isn't the best way to build a long-term competitive team. True. 2-Ryan has failed to consistently use FA to fill roster holes, and keep us competitive. True. 3-Ryan's front office has drafted well (on paper) since he has taken over. True. 4-Drafting at the top of the draft should be easy. True. 5-The Twins have one of the best farm systems in baseball. True. 6-Farm systems don't translate into big league success. True. What I find most amusing is what seems like the belief that you have to be terrible for multiple years to rebuild. With free agency and revenue sharing, that just isn't true. It is an old, and outdated concept of team construction. If you aren't going to spend on the top players, then you can't be missing on the mid range guys, and then using a lack of talent as an excuse for losing. If you create your own set of rules to operate by, then you deserve to be held to those. Ryan doesn't want to hand out large long term FA contracts...fine. Ryan doesn't want to spend to acquire top free agents...fine. Ryan doesn't want to trade minor league talent for major league players...fine. Ryan wants to keep under some arbitrary payroll number...fine. I don't mind an organization having rules like these in place. What I mind is when the organization and fans use those self imposed rules to provide an excuse when the team fails to be competitive for multiple years. Ryan has failed to supply our fired manager with legitimate major league talent for 4 years now, and it has led to 4 losing seasons. That is a fact, and it doesn't matter if it is because he is handcuffing himself with his own set of rules, or if he is just not doing it as good as the other teams out there. Facts are the Ryan has been a failure to date in his second tenure.

Yeah, I will believe in Sano when I see him at the major league level. Too many things can derail prospects between A-Ball and the Majors. Same goes for Buxton. Besides, since when has having too many good players ever been a problem for a team? Get the best pieces you can in trades, don't create holes that can't easily be filled, and sign legitimate talent when you can. As a GM, that is your job. Provide major league ready talent to your mjor league level roster, and create a farm system that is fostering and developing athletic talent. Figuring out ways to make all of the pieces fit is the manager's job, and if there is a total logjam of talent, the GM can make moves at that time. Let's not put the cart before the horse at this point. Sign a manager. Hire a staff. Use trades and free agency to acquire quality MLB talent. Worry about too much talent or guys coming up when they force you to. For a team coming off it's fourth consecutive 90 loss season, that shouldn't be too difficult.

Good to know, thanks for the info.

So, I guess my final offer if Sano, Meyer and Arcia for Stanton, as long as Stanton will agree to a 6 year extension, which puts him under contract until he is 32. Make that move, sign Hisashi Iwakuma, and fill in some defensive gaps and you have a contending team. It won't happen, but it is a feasible move with the assets we have in terms of prospects and payroll. Staff Hughes Iwakuma Gibson Nolasco Mays Bats Stanton Mauer Dozier Santana Vargas That could work, and you would still have Buxton, Berrios, Gordon, Polanco, Stewart, ect in the system.

Stanton is 24/25 years old. You are getting a young, proven MLB player who has the power to hit the ball out of Target field. And, as far the contract, it isn't a bad one. Giving a 24 year old big money for his prime years is ok. It is giving a 28 years old that goes into his mid 30s that becomes the issue.

Hell, if we aren't trading for Latos, I would offer Sano, Meyer, and Rosario for Stanton. Or, maybe Arcia would be more valuable to Cincinnati in a trade for Latos. Either way, I would slice up our top 20 to acquire two impact players under 28.

So, it was stated that a deal for Stanton would require more, which I think is worth considering. So I will amend my offer. Giancarlo Stanton for Miguel Sano, Oswaldo Arcia, and Eddie Rosario/Adam Walker. Gives the Marlins a cost controlled, power hitting RF for 2015, a top 10 prospect in all of baseball, as well as a power hitting minor league outfielder. Cuts payroll, can be sold to the latin community in Miami, and gives the team an out rather than paying Stanton a huge contract.

You think it would take Oswaldo Arcia or Jose Berrios being added? I'm just considering, the longer they wait, the less leverage they have which is what the Twins could exploit.

What I know is Joe Mauer needs to stay healthy, and adjust his approach at the plate to put more emphasis in driving the ball. I don't believe Mauer will ever be a power hitter, expecially in Target field, but I do believe Joe can develop his body in order to be more durable, and adjust his approach at the plate.

I will bounce this idea here as well. My trade targets would be Giancarlo Stanton and Mat Latos. Stanton has expressed his disinterest in the Marlins franchise, and they are always limited in their ability to offer big contracts to players. I would offer them Miguel Sano, Eddie Rosario, Adam Walker and Jason Wheeler for him. If I needed to add more, I probably would under the premise that he signs long term with the Twins. I would hesitate to add Buxton instead of Sano, but I might consider it. Probably would not add Stewart, Meyer or Berrios. MIght be willing to go as high as Gonsalves. It might not be enough. For Latos I would offer Alex Meyer, Max Kepler, and Travis Harrison. Again, I'm not sure that would be enough, but it would be my opening offer. Prospects I would really hesitate to move are Buxton, Gordon, Polanco, Berrios & Stewart. Sano would have to be for a special player which I believe Stanton is.

Players I would trade prospects for Cole Hamels Mat Latos Johnny Cueto Yu Darvish Elvis Andrus Desmond Jennings Matt Joyce Carlos Gonzales Wade Miley Ervin Santana Mike Minor Hisashi Iwakuma David Peralta and Giancarlo Stanton...who I would part with Sano and a 2nd tier pitching prospect for. The Marlins are quietly shopping him as they don't expect to be able to pay to keep him. I'm not sure if I would move Buxton for him, but I might. For the rest of them...pretty much every prospect would be available. I would probably deal highlight a deal with Meyer before Mays or Berrios. Maybe add a hitter as well. Essentially Miguel Sano, Eddie Rosario, Adam Walker and Jason Wheeler for Giancarlo Stanton Alex Meyer, Max Kepler, and Travis Harrison for Mat Latos Honestly, I'm not sure this would be enough to get these guys, and I might add more if that was the case.

Wonder if Olberman would feel the same if it was his long term financial advisor who had lost him money the past 4 years. It is easy to profess loyalty when you aren't tied to the success of the individual.