Official Twins Winter Meetings Day 2 Thread

The merits of who/what Bumgarner is NOW and what he MAY BE have been debated. And to be honest, I am torn. There just as many positives in regard to numbers and results as positives. Big game, postseason experience tends to tip the scales his direction for me, along with general belief you can count in him for 30 GS and 180-200 IP. I have no illusions he is a #1 SP any longer. I believe he is as good as, and probably better than Odorizzi now, and for the next couple of years. (NOT a shot of Oddo by any means!) I firmly believe, if healthy and playing for a quality team, he will be an over priced but solid #3 type option for a couple more years. Contract $ or not, these are valuable and important factors to consider.

 

I get trying to get the best deal you can. But if he really doesn't feel like he wants to be here, and will only be "happy" doing so with a 6yr deal for over $20M, I find myself souring very quickly. It's one thing to over pay and another to just get nuts.

 

Ryu is very good when available. His contract would be shorter and much easier to swallow. My hope would be Johnson and Baldelli could nurture him much like they did with the rest of the staff in 2019 to make him available for 28 GS. I'm leaning his way now.

 

I could buy in on Keuchel if it's a 3yr deal. I understand arguments about being an innings eater and control pitcher and what happens if that control suddenly slips. I understand the Twins infield isn't airtight defensively. My counters would be he certainly hasn't lost control yet and IMO, our defense isn't really all that bad, and has the potential to definitely get better in 2020 from normal progression that I expect from Sano, Polanco and Arraez.

There are 31, er a mere 29,* losers to every free agent signing.  Every fan base, each and every offseason, makes these same complaints, as if they are unique to their squad. 

 

The same people asking the Twins to strike it big, were advocating for Yu Darvish a couple years ago, who for a year and a half was worthless.  (And willfully blind the history of really awful long term contracts for starting pitchers).  

 

Forgive me, if I find the crocodile tears from Twins fans on the 2nd day of the winter meetings more than a bit annoying, sanctimonious, and longing for self-awareness.  

 

*Edit for stupidity etc.

Edited December 11, 2019 by PseudoSABR

For those interested in Darren Wolfson's updates:

 

https://twitter.com/DWolfsonKSTP/status/1204408494604115969

 

He was also on Skor North today, and to summarize what he said , 1) it seems like Bumgarner has no interest in playing in Minnesota and the Twins are unlikely to pay him over $20M a year (he speculated the Twins would need to offer at least a 6 year deal to get him), and 2) he believes Ryu is open to playing for a non-coastal team and the Twins have a lot of interest in him.

 

 

Personally, I'm hoping they come out with one of Bumgarner, Ryu, or Kuechel, and if not, they need to get one of the top-tier trade targets.

My biggest concern in this update is yet another big name free agent not considering Minnesota at all as a landing place. Why does Bumgarner have no interest playing in Minnesota? This is a pattern, not random occurrences.

There are 31 losers to every free agent signing.  Every fan base, each and every offseason, makes these same complaints, as if they are unique to their squad. 

 

The same people asking the Twins to strike it big, were advocating for Yu Darvish a couple years ago, who for a year and a half was worthless.  (And willfully blind the history of really awful long term contracts for starting pitchers).  

 

Forgive me, if I find the crocodile tears from Twins fans on the 2nd day of the winter meetings more than a bit annoying, sanctimonious, and longing for self-awareness.

 

I can only think of 29 losers to every free agent signing, 30 if you count the team that actually signed the free agent.

 

And there is actually a good discussion on one of the threads about the Cubs cutting payroll and what a good exchange for Darvish might entail.

 

I can only think of 29 losers to every free agent signing, 30 if you count the team that actually signed the free agent.

And there is actually a good discussion on one of the threads about the Cubs cutting payroll and what a good exchange for Darvish might entail.

Ugh I forget the number of teams. Why did I think 32 teams?  Only 29 losers? That changes every thing. 

 

Cheers. Really.

9/324 for Cole to NYY

My biggest concern in this update is yet another big name free agent not considering Minnesota at all as a landing place. Why does Bumgarner have no interest playing in Minnesota? This is a pattern, not random occurrences.

This story about him hacking a snake apart with an ax after it interrupted his cattle wrangling, which he started practicing because he was homesick for North Carolina makes me think it’s not us, it’s him.

 

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2294745-sports-illustrated-story-reveals-absurd-details-about-madison-bumgarners-life.amp.html

This story about him hacking a snake apart with an ax after it interrupted his cattle wrangling, which he started practicing because he was homesick for North Carolina makes me think it’s not us, it’s him.https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2294745-sports-illustrated-story-reveals-absurd-details-about-madison-bumgarners-life.amp.html

You may have a point, but... by that logic, you think that character trait makes him more likely to sign with a coastal elite big city team? The Twins were not among his no-trade destinations last season, if I’m recalling correctly, while the big cities were.

You may have a point, but... by that logic, you think that character trait makes him more likely to sign with a coastal elite big city team? The Twins were not among his no-trade destinations last season, if I’m recalling correctly, while the big cities were.

No idea what he wants but those no trade lists often consists of the teams he and his agent think will try to trade for him. Before the season even ended people were predicting he’d go to the Atlanta to be closer to home. Since they’re out, who knows?

 

This story about him hacking a snake apart with an ax after it interrupted his cattle wrangling, which he started practicing because he was homesick for North Carolina makes me think it’s not us, it’s him.

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2294745-sports-illustrated-story-reveals-absurd-details-about-madison-bumgarners-life.amp.html

He had empathy for the surviving internalized baby rabbit at least.  That shows a window for non-cruelty at least...

 

You say the next tier has been brutal, but you were in favor of signing Wheeler. As was I. I presume because you think he can pitch. As do I. So, how do you decide that Wheeler is well worth 5/105, but is not worth 5/125 or 5/135? You gain a great starter, and what does that extra payroll really cost you? How badly does this organization want a deep postseason run?

 

I wanted Wheeler badly too. To be honest, I typed out a very simple response saying Brodie Van wagenen was on MLB radio and he did not think Wheeler was worth that kind of money because the premise we should have just spent whatever it takes is fanatical and nothing I say will be acceptable. However, I am going to tell you why I don’t have the same response to losing Wheeler as others here.

 

Wheeler wanted to go to Philly. In this type of negotiation, the agent is going to bounce back in forth between the clubs driving up the price but in the end the agent is going to give Philly the shot. The assumption here is that 118 was Philly’s final offer. Who is to say they should not be equally motivated.  This is not Falvine’s first rodeo. At some point they probably realized they were being played and the only way they were getting Wheeler was at a price that no longer made sense at which point they probably dropped out.

 

Even if the assumption that 118 was a high as the Philly’s were willing to go, the premise that if he is worth 105 he is worth 125 is also fanatical. We all make this sort of judgment call in our own lives on a frequent basis. I would guess everyone here has seen a vehicle that interested them only to find out it have every gadget known to man and carried a price they were not willing to pay. I can assure you the team has a far more sophisticated methodology for establishing value that we have as fans. When they stop bidding, profit may have some weight but the primary emphasis is the most effective utilization of the dollars. In other words, they believed the best way to produce wins was to invest elsewhere. Fans of sports with a salary cap embrace this premise. They despise bad contracts because it hinders building a winner. Posters here must have heard the grumbling of Wolves fans over Wiggins getting a max contract.

 

There is an also an absolutely indisputable premise that gets ignored here. As a matter of fact people make fun of the value premise. However, the reality is that the Minnesota Twins have to produce more wins per dollar spent than half the teams in this league. Therefore, some players make much more sense for teams that have enough revenue to pay for a player and still have the Twin’s budget left over. Philly's incremental revenue covers wheeler 3X. Some teams can sign several Wheelers and still have the Twins budget left over. The problem here is that many people refuse to recognize this reality so they take the stance the Twins are just interested in profit.

 

Two-thirds of the people who read this will not stop for 10 seconds to consider if this is reasonable. They will be busy thinking up something to blast me with as they read it.

I wanted Wheeler badly too. To be honest, I typed out a very simple response saying Brodie Van wagenen was on MLB radio and he did not think Wheeler was worth that kind of money because the premise we should have just spent whatever it takes is fanatical and nothing I say will be acceptable. However, I am going to tell you why I don’t have the same response to losing Wheeler as others here.

 

Wheeler wanted to go to Philly. In this type of negotiation, the agent is going to bounce back in forth between the clubs driving up the price but in the end the agent is going to give Philly the shot. The assumption here is that 118 was Philly’s final offer. Who is to say they should not be equally motivated. This is not Falvine’s first rodeo. At some point they probably realized they were being played and the only way they were getting Wheeler was at a price that no longer made sense at which point they probably dropped out.

 

Even if the assumption that 118 was a high as the Philly’s were willing to go, the premise that if he is worth 105 he is worth 125 is also fanatical. We all make this sort of judgment call in our own lives on a frequent basis. I would guess everyone here has seen a vehicle that interested them only to find out it have every gadget known to man and carried a price they were not willing to pay. I can assure you the team has a far more sophisticated methodology for establishing value that we have as fans. When they stop bidding, profit may have some weight but the primary emphasis is the most effective utilization of the dollars. In other words, they believed the best way to produce wins was to invest elsewhere. Fans of sports with a salary cap embrace this premise. They despise bad contracts because it hinders building a winner. Posters here must have heard the grumbling of Wolves fans over Wiggins getting a max contract.

 

There is an also an absolutely indisputable premise that gets ignored here. As a matter of fact people make fun of the value premise. However, the reality is that the Minnesota Twins have to produce more wins per dollar spent than half the teams in this league. Therefore, some players make much more sense for teams that have enough revenue to pay for a player and still have the Twin’s budget left over. Philly's incremental revenue covers wheeler 3X. Some teams can sign several Wheelers and still have the Twins budget left over. The problem here is that many people refuse to recognize this reality so they take the stance the Twins are just interested in profit.

 

Two-thirds of the people who read this will not stop for 10 seconds to consider if this is reasonable. They will be busy thinking up something to blast me with as they read it.

Good response, though as I read back, I see you dodged my question: What is a World Series worth to you? What is a World Series worth to this organization? Fans want to win, and I think that is why fans here will always disagree with you. The value premise does not mix well with winning. I’m not saying you don’t want the team to win, but winning does seem to come across as secondary.

 

My biggest concern in this update is yet another big name free agent not considering Minnesota at all as a landing place. Why does Bumgarner have no interest playing in Minnesota? This is a pattern, not random occurrences.

I tried to explore this in a blog 

https://twinsdaily.com/blogs/entry/11724-%7B%3F%7D/

 

We have done well with Minnesotans - Perkins, Mauer, Winfield, Molitor, Morris, Goltz, Kindall, Koosman, Hrbek, Steinback... Who is the next great Minnesotan?  We better sign him.

 

 

Ugh I forget the number of teams. Why did I think 32 teams?  Only 29 losers? That changes every thing. 

 

Cheers. Really.

It's football season.

I will be absolutely floored if we sign Madbum, Kuechel or Ryu.

 

I don't think the predominant sentiment (at least on this site) is that the Twins are actively trying to make offers and get rejected to say "oh, we tried." I think we are in the agreement that they are more concerned with overpaying or "getting a good value" than they are with winning in 2020.

 

Sometimes you have to overpay to chase a championship when the window is open. I think most serious Twins fans would be okay with overpaying to sign Cole. Or Madbum. The understanding is that you won't be getting your money's worth for the whole length of that contract, but you had to overpay to outbid other teams, and it's worth it if you really need elite SP in 2020-2021.

IDK

Madbum has gone over 200 innings in 7 of the last 9 years. Last year on a terrible Giants team he pitches 207 innings and had over 200 K's, I mean what a bullpen savior. If they can get both Berrios and Madbum to go over 200 innings then guys like Odorizzi don't hurt quite as much. I mean I'd say he is worth 5 years 100 mill. If he pitches well in 3 of those seasons and average in one and poorly in one then that would prob be worth it. 5 years from now it will prob be tear down time anyway?

 

There are 31, er a mere 29,* losers to every free agent signing.  Every fan base, each and every offseason, makes these same complaints, as if they are unique to their squad. 

I get the "only 1 out of 30 teams can win the WS each year" thing (although it's little comfort when your team is swept lifelessly out of the first round of the playoffs repeatedly) -- but it doesn't seem to apply to free agents. Not every team is really participating in the FA market, at least not to the same extent. The Twins are among the group which *should* be participating, and should be capable, based on circumstances, so I understand the anxiety when they're not making additions.

 

The same people asking the Twins to strike it big, were advocating for Yu Darvish a couple years ago, who for a year and a half was worthless.  (And willfully blind the history of really awful long term contracts for starting pitchers). 

Look, it was natural to crow over Darvish earlier -- he missed most of 2018, then looked pretty wild to start 2019, so there was some question as to whether he was a lemon, or cooked (or a cooked lemon, perhaps?).

 

But his second half of 2019 was among the best in baseball. He would have been an asset to any postseason team in 2019, and to any team with contention aspirations for 2020. If he was a FA today, we'd absolutely be interested in him on a 4/81 deal, right? I don't think we should still be crowing about "dodging that bullet", especially before we add anybody new this winter (much less before we see if they are capable of performing like Darvish just did in the second half).

I hope the team isn't spending too much time focusing on pitching if the pitching either isn't a fit or isn't interested. As much as this team needs pitching, if the top two pitchers weren't an option and the next two pitchers may prefer to not come here, I don't want them to fruitlessly make a big show about it when there is still a 3B out there who may be interested.

 

Also, I bet the Dodgers aren't actually interested in Bumgarner, they're a pretty analytically inclined front office and Bumgarner doesn't seem to be an analytically approved pitcher. I bet they're talking to him to try to get Ryu to come back at a discount.

 

I made a joke about it last week, but now I'd like to see the Twins try to go and overpay for Blake Snell.

 

I wanted Wheeler badly too. To be honest, I typed out a very simple response saying Brodie Van wagenen was on MLB radio and he did not think Wheeler was worth that kind of money because the premise we should have just spent whatever it takes is fanatical and nothing I say will be acceptable. However, I am going to tell you why I don’t have the same response to losing Wheeler as others here.

 

Wheeler wanted to go to Philly. In this type of negotiation, the agent is going to bounce back in forth between the clubs driving up the price but in the end the agent is going to give Philly the shot. The assumption here is that 118 was Philly’s final offer. Who is to say they should not be equally motivated.  This is not Falvine’s first rodeo. At some point they probably realized they were being played and the only way they were getting Wheeler was at a price that no longer made sense at which point they probably dropped out.

 

Even if the assumption that 118 was a high as the Philly’s were willing to go, the premise that if he is worth 105 he is worth 125 is also fanatical. We all make this sort of judgment call in our own lives on a frequent basis. I would guess everyone here has seen a vehicle that interested them only to find out it have every gadget known to man and carried a price they were not willing to pay. I can assure you the team has a far more sophisticated methodology for establishing value that we have as fans. When they stop bidding, profit may have some weight but the primary emphasis is the most effective utilization of the dollars. In other words, they believed the best way to produce wins was to invest elsewhere. Fans of sports with a salary cap embrace this premise. They despise bad contracts because it hinders building a winner. Posters here must have heard the grumbling of Wolves fans over Wiggins getting a max contract.

 

There is an also an absolutely indisputable premise that gets ignored here. As a matter of fact people make fun of the value premise. However, the reality is that the Minnesota Twins have to produce more wins per dollar spent than half the teams in this league. Therefore, some players make much more sense for teams that have enough revenue to pay for a player and still have the Twin’s budget left over. Philly's incremental revenue covers wheeler 3X. Some teams can sign several Wheelers and still have the Twins budget left over. The problem here is that many people refuse to recognize this reality so they take the stance the Twins are just interested in profit.

 

Two-thirds of the people who read this will not stop for 10 seconds to consider if this is reasonable. They will be busy thinking up something to blast me with as they read it.

I read it, and considered it, so don't blast me in reply.

 

I get that $118 mil may not have been the Phillies best offer, or it may have already represented an overpay, etc. I still think it could have been worth making such an offer -- no offense to the White Sox, but I don't think they were much of a test for Wheeler's off-field preferences, and it may have been worth overpaying if he was their #1 target, and to avoid getting shut out. Much depends on what the Twins do the rest of the offseason, of course, but I really did not like hearing that the Twins were prepared to offer more but didn't get a chance.

 

As far as 105 not also being worth 125, obviously that was the Twins judgement but it remains to be seen whether it was correct. The FA market in pro sports is nothing like an individual shopping for a car. Car shopping, it is perfectly acceptable (and admirable, even) for people to err on the side of frugality and utility every single time. That's not really the nature of running a pro sports franchise -- it's competitive by nature, and some risks have to be taken. Additionally, the FA market has many more variables than car shopping, and is much harder to predict -- what one sees as the upper limit price on a FA might change dramatically over a short period of time, based on competition and scarcity of resources.

 

Now, it is better that the Twins have failed to sign a big contract so far than to have signed the wrong big contract, but it would be better still if we were able to sign the *right* big contract. That's part of my expectation for this front office too -- not the only part, but a big enough part that I'm following their offseason moves.

If we’re gonna pivot from Bumgarner as the “impact” pitcher we’re supposedly in search of, it better not be towards Ryu or Keuchel.

 

Really not a fan of Price, Smith, or Archer for various reasons, so if it’s not Ray or Boyd, the FO should go hard after younger options with potential like Marquez, E-Rod, Alcantara, and Montas.

I read it, and considered it, so don't blast me in reply.

 

I get that $118 mil may not have been the Phillies best offer, or it may have already represented an overpay, etc. I still think it could have been worth making such an offer -- no offense to the White Sox, but I don't think they were much of a test for Wheeler's off-field preferences, and it may have been worth overpaying if he was their #1 target, and to avoid getting shut out. Much depends on what the Twins do the rest of the offseason, of course, but I really did not like hearing that the Twins were prepared to offer more but didn't get a chance.

 

As far as 105 not also being worth 125, obviously that was the Twins judgement but it remains to be seen whether it was correct. The FA market in pro sports is nothing like an individual shopping for a car. Car shopping, it is perfectly acceptable (and admirable, even) for people to err on the side of frugality and utility every single time. That's not really the nature of running a pro sports franchise -- it's competitive by nature, and some risks have to be taken. Additionally, the FA market has many more variables than car shopping, and is much harder to predict -- what one sees as the upper limit price on a FA might change dramatically over a short period of time, based on competition and scarcity of resources.

 

Now, it is better that the Twins have failed to sign a big contract so far than to have signed the wrong big contract, but it would be better still if we were able to sign the *right* big contract. That's part of my expectation for this front office too -- not the only part, but a big enough part that I'm following their offseason moves.

The car analogy also falls apart due to the reason you're buying a car in the first place.

 

This is MLB we're talking about. You're not buying a car to commute back and forth to work, where any car will perform the job, it's just aesthetics.

 

You're buying a car for a race against 29 other car owners, and your chances of winning that race get pretty low when you're driving a used 2011 Prius. Great value, not much performance.

 

If your goal is to keep stocking your 401k, and not spend much on gas, great car.

 

If your goal is to win the race, not so much.

 

Good response, though as I read back, I see you dodged my question: What is a World Series worth to you? What is a World Series worth to this organization? Fans want to win, and I think that is why fans here will always disagree with you. The value premise does not mix well with winning. I’m not saying you don’t want the team to win, but winning does seem to come across as secondary.

 

We will just have to agree to disagree on the value premise. The value premise is essential to winning for teams with lower revenue. It's basically a linear relationship. The less revenue you have compared to the top revenue teams, the more value per dollar spent you MUST achieve in order to win as many games as said competitor with more revenue.  IE. The Yankees can spend twice as much as the Twins. Therefore, the Twins have to have double the production per dollar to win an equal number of games. We seem to understand this with the Rays and As but refuse to acknowledge it with our team. Fans of teams where a spending cap exists tend to be rather sophisticated where spending is concerned. There are people who literally make fun of this premise here when it is literally a mathematical certainty.

 

Honestly, it bugs me because fans are mad for no good reason. The FO is following practices that are proving to be successful around the league. They are acting in the fans best interest. We had 100 wins last year and are positioned to win for the next several seasons. I agree with everyone else we need another good SP and I really don't know if Bumgarner, Ryu or someone else is the best candidate but I am not going to hate the FO because they did not sign a free agent who wanted to be someone else, especially given that team can pay for 3 players like him and still have the Twin's budget leftover. It's just not reasonable to expect to win that battle.

 

We have to find other ways to win. The Rays got better production out of Charlie Morton at 2/30 than the national got out of Corbin for 6/140. The Yankees got better production out of LeMahieu for 2/24 than  the Padres got out of Machado for 10/300 or we can use the 1 yr example of Donaldson in Atlanta or Mustakis producing similar WAR for 1/3 of the price in Milwaukee. Brantley (2/32) produced almost the same WAR has Harper.

 

The car analogy also falls apart due to the reason you're buying a car in the first place.

This is MLB we're talking about. You're not buying a car to commute back and forth to work, where any car will perform the job, it's just aesthetics.

You're buying a car for a race against 29 other car owners, and your chances of winning that race get pretty low when you're driving a used 2011 Prius. Great value, not much performance.

If your goal is to keep stocking your 401k, and not spend much on gas, great car.

If your goal is to win the race, not so much.

 

I was going to say I am not sure how you missed value equals wins until I realized I just got done saying that I presumed just such a response. I made it clear in the post that the FO was seeking value per dollar spent. Of course, if we could spend infinitely, the amount spent would be meaningless and your position would have merit. Of course, that is not the case which is why I bothered to address productivity per dollar spent and the concept that the amount of wins per dollar spent eventually equates to the most wins for the team.

 

Let’s translate the analogy to an example. Last year, the Twins could have (theoretically) signed Harper for 10/300M ass ome suggested here or we could sign use the $30M to add Cruz, Gonsales, Cron, and Schoop. For an AAV of $31M. Collectively, they produced 7 WAR. I will eagerly await your explanation as to how 7 is not greater than 3.1?

 

We have to find other ways to win. The Rays got better production out of Charlie Morton at 2/30 than the national got out of Corbin for 6/140.

Did they? Morton had an edge in fWAR, 6.1 to 4.8, but by actual on-field results (RA9-WAR and bWAR) they were virtually the same. Better value in Morton, sure, but not meaningfully better production.

 

And we'd probably be ecstatic if the Twins had signed either one last winter, and we're hoping they can find another one this winter, even if it costs $140 mil. (I'll grant that we won't be signing any $300 mil guys soon, and that's fine.)

I was going to say I am not sure how you missed value equals wins until I realized I just got done saying that I presumed just such a response. I made it clear in the post that the FO was seeking value per dollar spent. Of course, if we could spend infinitely, the amount spent would be meaningless and your position would have merit. Of course, that is not the case which is why I bothered to address productivity per dollar spent and the concept that the amount of wins per dollar spent eventually equates to the most wins for the team.

 

Let’s translate the analogy to an example. Last year, the Twins could have (theoretically) signed Harper for 10/300M ass ome suggested here or we could sign use the $30M to add Cruz, Gonsales, Cron, and Schoop. For an AAV of $31M. Collectively, they produced 7 WAR. I will eagerly await your explanation as to how 7 is not greater than 3.1?

how about 7 + 3.1?

 

Greater than 7?

 

Besides which...we didn't win the race.

 

Your goal seems to be asset preservation.

 

That's not mine.

 

We will just have to agree to disagree on the value premise. The value premise is essential to winning for teams with lower revenue. It's basically a linear relationship. The less revenue you have compared to the top revenue teams, the more value per dollar spent you MUST achieve in order to win as many games as said competitor with more revenue.  IE. The Yankees can spend twice as much as the Twins. Therefore, the Twins have to have double the production per dollar to win an equal number of games. We seem to understand this with the Rays and As but refuse to acknowledge it with our team. Fans of teams where a spending cap exists tend to be rather sophisticated where spending is concerned. There are people who literally make fun of this premise here when it is literally a mathematical certainty.

 

This as a philosophy is just fine, and actually what most here realize is the case. We also realize that, as you say, we must get more per dollar than larger market teams do. 

 

That said, you can't be 100% rigid with any philosophy and expect to win the big one. Twins are in dire need of starting pitching right now. They are not really in need of position players as a whole. They have lots of money available to use, and lots of high end prospects as capital. 

 

Does it not make sense to utilize all the capital you have in order to produce the best team you can? Or can winning only happen here when you stick to the "value" philosopy of roster construction. 

 

My argument is that it takes both. It does no good to carry that money with you, nor does it do any good to carry prospects in areas where you already have young guys manning their positions. By spending what you can, and using your prospect capital, my opinion is then and only then are you actually maximizing the potential of those assets.

 

Did they? Morton had an edge in fWAR, 6.1 to 4.8, but by actual on-field results (RA9-WAR and bWAR) they were virtually the same. Better value in Morton, sure, but not meaningfully better production.

 

And we'd probably be ecstatic if the Twins had signed either one last winter, and we're hoping they can find another one this winter, even if it costs $140 mil. (I'll grant that we won't be signing any $300 mil guys soon, and that's fine.)

 

But they didn't, they signed Perez......