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  • Winter Meetings - Search For A Starter


    Seth Stohs

    The Winter Meetings are an interesting event, particularly for fans. There are a multitude of rumors, and we need to sift through them to find out which are real and which are just talk. Monday was fairly quiet on the Twins rumor front, but maybe Tuesday will get things going. If nothing else, an early-morning tweet got my mind running.

    It's no secret that the Twins are going to have a lot of discussions in Orlando this week with teams and agents in a search for an upper echelon pitcher. What are the options and what could a trade cost the Twins in terms of prospects?

    Image courtesy of Charles LeClaire, USA Today

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    The Twins have two options if they would like to acquire a top-level starting pitcher. They can give up money, a lot of money, to acquire a top free agent starter. It would likely also cost a draft pick. The other option to acquire a starting pitcher is via trade which, of course, costs a number of top prospects.

    FREE AGENTS

    Yu Darvish is the big name on the free agent market. He's clearly the top starting pitcher available. The cost for Darvish would be either five or six years at somewhere around $23-26 million per year.

    Jake Arrieta has won a Cy Young, and he's been good, but there are several question marks surrounding him this offseason after a "tough" year with the Cubs in 2017. Regardless, he's going to get three or four years and at least $20 million per season, probably more.

    Those are the top two free agent starting pitchers, but two others are getting a lot of talk and a lot of interest.

    Lance Lynn is going to get three or four years and $18-20 million per season. Alex Cobb is also going to get three to five years, and he will get between $17-21 million. The fact that the Cubs are interested in Cobb will likely push those dollars to the upper end of that range.

    All four of them would cost the Twins a draft pick.

    THE TRADE MARKET

    We've heard some of the same trade candidates mentioned since the trade deadline. Chris Archer and Gerrit Cole are, well, if they're not Aces, they're upper tier starters, guys we would be happy to have at the top of the Twins rotation.

    But what might the cost be?

    Early on Tuesday morning, a tweet from Pirates Breakdown caught my attention. I don't know much about the site, though a quick glimpse and it looks great. And I don't know whether or not this 'source' is legit of not. What I do know is that it does make sense for a conversation starter. Whether it is for Gerrit Cole, or a similar trade for Chris Archer, it's enough to keep the trade talks going.

    https://twitter.com/pbcbreakdown/status/940390540998250497

    As much as I hate seeing prospects traded, I think even I would make that trade for Gerrit Cole.

    Nick Gordon is a top three Twins prospect regardless of the ranking source. I had him ranked as the Twins #3 prospect last week. To acquire a pitcher of Gerrit Cole's caliber will require a top prospect. As much as I like Gordon and believe in his future, there are still some question marks about his offensive potential and whether he can stay at shortstop.

    Likewise, Tyler Jay can be a star bullpen arm if healthy. But again, if his role is going to be out of the bullpen, the Twins can replace those 65 innings per year with other internal options or on the free agent market.

    Zack Granite can be a solid starter in the outfield and can definitely roam center field for a team. With the Twins current roster, he would be the fourth outfielder, capable of playing all three outfield spots, taking quality at-bats, etc.

    I don't know if this package would be enough to get the Pirates to pull the trigger, but this is a deal that I would make. What do you think?

    I generally have this assumption that if I personally would be willing to make a theoretical trade then the other team (the Pirates in this case) would probably want more. For instance, I would think they might want a top pitching prospect (Stephen Gonsalves or Fernando Romero) to go with their current crop of young, talented pitchers (Jameson Taillon, Tyler Glasnow, Chad Kuhl, Ivan Nova, Trevor Williams, etc.). But maybe they like that young core of pitchers and want to build up their lineup with two guys who could, in time, hit at the top of their lineup.

    Cole is a Boras client who made $3.75 million in 2017, his first year of arbitration. He will likely make $7-8 million in 2018, and maybe $10-12 million in 2019 before becoming a free agent. So, the Twins would likely need to pay him $17-20 million over two years.

    Chris Archer will make $6.25 million in 2018 and $7.5 million in 2019. There is a club option for 2020 at $9.0 million ($1.75 million buyout) and a second club option for 2021 at $11.0 million ($0.25 million buyout). The Twins would likely end up paying him $33.75 million over four years.

    The Twins need pitching and need starting pitching. What direction would you prefer to go, free agency or the trade route? Besides Chris Archer and Gerrit Cole, what other pitchers would you like to see the Twins contemplate acquiring?

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    Jose Rodriguez

    GCL Twins - Rookie, OF
    Jose Rodriguez was the Twins Daily short-season minor-league hitter of the year. He is at the Dominican facilities for spring training now but will likely join Extended Spring Training in Fort Myers.

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      On 12/13/2017 at 12:49 AM, jimmer said:

    It would be awesome.  Big time hoping! It would be out biggest FA signing by far.

     

    I'm pretty excited about signing the guy who pretty much cost the Dodgers a World Series!!

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      On 12/13/2017 at 12:49 AM, sploorp said:

    This may turn out to be nothing, but according to MLB Trade Rumors, Darvish has been in contact with Gimenez about what it's like to play in Minnesota.  Like I said, it could very well be nothing, but if it isn't .... ?!  A possible deal could be farther along than people realize.

    Yeah, this was mentioned here:

    http://twinsdaily.com/topic/28147-article-4-stories-to-watch-at-the-winter-meetings/?p=700629

     

    With multiple threads going on the Winter Meetings, tons of overlap in conversations happening. I imagine that every thread will blow up if something big actually happens for the Twins!

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      On 12/13/2017 at 12:31 AM, jimmer said:

    Exactly this.  And not to mention, though Longoria doesn't have a MONSTER contract, that has to be included when talking about value (an average of 17M a year if you count the buyout for 2023)

     

    So it's 32 year old Longoria (owed 17M a year over the next 5 years) + Archer (and his 8.5M a year over 4 years) for Sano (who isn't arbitration eligible yet) + Gonzalves who still has 6 years of control.

    Nice to see you show Sano some respect, finally. However, you could argue that the above-average dependability of Longoria is preferable to the unpredictability and highs and lows of having Sano around, much as I'm in his corner and hope he gets straightened out.
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      On 12/13/2017 at 4:20 AM, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

    Nice to see you show Sano some respect, finally. However, you could argue that the above-average dependability of Longoria is preferable to the unpredictability and highs and lows of having Sano around, much as I'm in his corner and hope he gets straightened out.

    I've given Sano plenty of respect in regards to his bat. PLENTY. I don't think it's fair to say I am finally giving him respect just because I don't find him to be a good defender and I say so.  I give him credit for what he does well and I point out his issues on defense.  Heck, I even gave him credit for his effort in RF when they made the horrible decision to put him out there.  Yeah, he was bad, but It wasn't HIS fault it was so bad.

     

    If you feel that it's unfair to point out a player's weaknesses, I don't know what to say to that.

    Edited by jimmer
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      On 12/13/2017 at 1:01 AM, ChiTownTwinsFan said:

    Yeah, this was mentioned here:

    http://twinsdaily.com/topic/28147-article-4-stories-to-watch-at-the-winter-meetings/?p=700629

     

    With multiple threads going on the Winter Meetings, tons of overlap in conversations happening. I imagine that every thread will blow up if something big actually happens for the Twins!

    It's because there was a day 0 thread but never a day 1 or day 2 thread. People don't know where to post.
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      On 12/13/2017 at 5:24 AM, amjgt said:

    It's because there was a day 0 thread but never a day 1 or day 2 thread. People don't know where to post.

    I know. These winter meeting discussions will just overlap. But I did mention it because there was some discussion already, including a bit more detail on it.

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    Y'all have taken a hard line before on moving and locking threads. My suggestion (not that you're asking) would be to lock up the "day 0" thread at midnight and start a day 3 thread.

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      On 12/12/2017 at 5:23 PM, Mike Sixel said:

    To realize that puts Sano and Buxton another year closer to free agency? Eventually you have to try to win.

     

    Slow and steady will win a lot of races. Lets see if the young guys can duplicate last years win total, gain some maturity, become steady, consistent players, maybe even the all-star players we hope they will be, THEN is the time to trade a bunch of prospects for the missing piece(s). 

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      On 12/12/2017 at 5:23 PM, Mike Sixel said:

    To realize that puts Sano and Buxton another year closer to free agency? Eventually you have to try to win.

     

    As far as Sano and Buxton go, I'm not on the bandwagon yet. Sano has to prove he can play a whole year, keep his weight down, and cut down on his strikeouts. Buxton has to prove that he can stop running into walls or other players. The Twins will be luck to get 200 games out of the two of them this year. You can't count on them so that means all the other young players need to mature and step up, meaning the Twins are still a year or two away from needing to make that big trade to get over the hump.

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      On 12/13/2017 at 5:32 AM, amjgt said:

    Y'all have taken a hard line before on moving and locking threads. My suggestion (not that you're asking) would be to lock up the "day 0" thread at midnight and start a day 3 thread.

     

    Wait, the winter meetings have already started? That can't be accurate because......

     

    :)

     

    We typically would lock or merge threads but this is an article not a one-off conversation thread.

     

    ****I wouldn't normally post this in a forum and would instead send a PM as I wouldn't want to derail the discussion but I can see where this might be a situation where many people are perplexed.

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    I'm not sure why people are including Royce Lewis in trade scenarios because he supposedly won't be up for 5 years.  When a team has really hit on a #1 draft pick (like we're hoping the Twins have), even the high school players reach the big leagues really quick.  

     

    Let's look at two recent top draft picks who were infielders drafted out of high school:

    Carlos Correa (#1 overall in 2012): 2012 half season: Rk, 2013 season: A, 2014 season A+, 2015: AA/AAA/MLB. MLB debut at age 20.

     

    Manny Machado (#3 overall in 2010): 2010 half season Rk/A-, 2011 season: A/A+, 2012 season: AA/MLB. MLB debut at age 19.

     

    Lewis spit his draft-year season between Rookie and A ball. Putting him on track to reach the majors as early as 2019 or 2020 if all goes to plan. That's right in the middle of the Twins winning window. Of course, plenty could go wrong, but you don't trade a #1 overall draft pick who has Carlos Correa/Manny Machado potential unless he shows you some major flaws.

     

    If I'm the Twins, Lewis is absolutely *untouchable. 

     

    *untouchable, of course, qualified to mean any "sane"/realistic trade scenario.

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      On 12/12/2017 at 9:03 PM, Steve Lein said:

    What type of player do you think fill-in corner outfielders or 4th outfielders are?

     

    The way I look at it, the Twins "nothing but rain drops" outfield is all center fielder quality. Varying degrees obviously, but that's what they are. It's nice to have a 4th OF-er who is also CF above average, but they already have that and corners are way easier to fill.

     

    Granite is a 4th outfielder for the Twins. Look at who the Twins have had in that role recently: Sam Fuld, Logan Schafer, Jordan Schafer, Danny Santana, Shane Robinson, Darin Mastroianni, Clete Thomas... Bench outfielders and corner guys are definitely a dime-a-dozen.

     

    You're worrying too much about this and if he's a guy Pittsburgh is targeting, I say good for them and him.

     

    Not worried, just a preference. I've repeated I'd be happy with the trade as-is, but depth is important too

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      On 12/13/2017 at 12:49 AM, sploorp said:

    This may turn out to be nothing, but according to MLB Trade Rumors, Darvish has been in contact with Gimenez about what it's like to play in Minnesota.  Like I said, it could very well be nothing, but if it isn't .... ?!  A possible deal could be farther along than people realize.

     

    Good.  At least a dialogue is happening.  Likely leads to nothing but perhaps there is hope that something comes to fruition based on past relationships.

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    The only reason I don't trade Gordon, Jay and Zach for Cole, is that I have something in works for Archer or possibly one of the Mets starters.

    I do hate that is he is Boras guy and it will be next to impossible to have him longer than 2 years but I still make the move.

     

     

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      On 12/15/2017 at 1:56 AM, Mike Sixel said:

    I actually think they are going:

     

    6/144

     

    with Darvish. Those last two years will suck....but the first four will hopefully be worth it.

     

    In the next 4 years Greinke is making:

     

    Age 34: $34M

    Age 35: $34.5M

    Age 36: $35M

    Age 37: $35M

     

    144/6 for Darvish only comes out to $24M a season and would take him through age 36 just for reference

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