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  • What Happened to Eddie Rosario’s Defense?


    Andrew Thares

    With all of the questions the Minnesota Twins have had surrounding most of their team over the past few years, one area of the team that has been steady has been the outfield. Sure, Byron Buxton has had his fair share of issues with the bat and staying healthy, but there has never been a question about him being the Twins center fielder, when healthy, thanks to his seemingly superhuman abilities to chase down flyballs. Additionally, the play of both Eddie Rosario and Max Kepler in the corners has given the Twins great stability. One of the hallmarks of this trio has been the great defense that they play collectively. However, while Buxton and Kepler have been able to maintain their high levels of defensive play, Eddie Rosario has taken a big step backward this year.

    Image courtesy of © David Berding-USA TODAY Sports

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    I will start this article by saying, I am only referencing fielding metrics generated by Statcast that are available on Baseball Savant. While many of the defensive metrics on sites like Fangraphs and Baseball Reference could be helpful, they are, at least for outfielders, outdated, and nowhere near as accurate for measuring an outfielder’s ability to track down flyballs as Statcast is. The reason for this is that Statcast actually tracks player and ball movements to quantify the time and distance that an outfielder has to track down a flyball, and calculates catch expectancy from that. Other metrics, like UZR and DRS, rely on the eye test from humans, which is a much less precise process. If you would like to read more about how the Statcast fielding metrics are calculated, you can do so here.

    That being said, let’s start diving into the numbers. We will start by looking at Eddie Rosario’s expected catch percentage vs. his actual catch percentage. So far this year Rosario has an expected catch percentage of 86 percent. That is to say, an average outfielder would catch 86 percent of the fly balls hit to Eddie Rosario this year. However, Rosario’s actual catch percentage stands at just 81 percent, giving Rosario a catch percent added of -5 percent. While this might not sound like a lot, it actually is. Among the 97 outfielders who have fielded at least 50 fly balls this year, only four outfielders have an expected catch percent added worse than Rosario's. This is a severe drop off from the +2 percent, -1 percent and -1 percent, that Rosario averaged in 2016, 2017 and 2018 respectively.

    Using these metrics, we can calculate Eddie Rosario’s outs above average. How this metric works is, if you have a fly ball hit to you that has a 75 percent catch probability, and you catch it, you get credit for 0.25 outs above average on that opportunity. However, if you fail to catch it, you get credit for -0.75 outs above average on that opportunity. In 2019, Rosario’s outs above average currently stands at -9 outs, which is on pace for 13.5 outs below average. For comparison, Byron Buxton currently has an outs above average of 12, which means Rosario has negated 75 percent of the value Buxton brings in the field defensively with his play in the field.

    So, what has caused Eddie Rosario to experience such a drastic drop off, from roughly league average outfielder, to one of the worst defensive outfielders in baseball? For that, we will need to dive even deeper. We will start by looking at Rosario’s sprint speed, which is another metric tracked by Statcast. This year, Rosario’s average sprint speed is 27.2 feet per second, which is roughly league average. However, from 2016 through 2018, Rosario averaged 28.0 feet per second. Again, for comparison, Byron Buxton’s sprint speed this year is 30.3 feet per second, so a 0.8 feet per second drop is a significant decline.

    However, there is more to being a good outfielder than just being able to run fast, though that does help a lot. Getting a good jump on the ball, getting up to speed quickly, and taking a good route to the ball are all important factors in being good at tracking down fly balls. Luckily, thanks to the player movement tracking technology, via Statcast, we can measure each of those factors, using some newly introduced metrics referred to as Reaction, Burst, and Route.

    We will start by looking at reaction, which measure the amount of ground an outfielder covers in the first 1.5 seconds after the pitch is thrown. From 2016 through 2018, Eddie Rosario measured in at 0.3 feet above the MLB average in reaction. However, in 2019 Rosario is at -0.8 feet below average in that initial reaction stage. The next metric we will look at is burst. Burst measures the feet that an outfielder covers from the 1.6 second mark, to the 3 second mark of the play. In other words, how fast the outfielder is accelerating. Again, looking back from 2016 through 2018, Rosario averaged 0.0 feet above average in burst, or exactly league average. That number has fallen all the way down to 1.2 feet below average in 2019. The final metric that we will look at is route, which measures the outfielder’s route efficiency, and how many extra feet they are needing to run by taking a poor route. From 2016 through 2018, Rosario gained 0.2 feet, per opportunity, on the average MLB outfielder due to taking good routes. In 2019, Rosario is gaining 0.3 feet per route above the average MLB outfielder.

    It is apparent that Rosario has taken a considerable step backward in not just sprint speed, but in his all-around athletic skills as well. So, the question is, how much has this hurt Rosario? The table below breaks down how many feet Rosario is losing, on a per fly ball basis, from where he was in the three previous seasons.

    ccs-10590-0-50835100-1564938230_thumb.png

    The first thing to note from this table is the Feet Gained for the Feet Per Second category is multiplied by two, and there is a reason for this. For starters, the average fly ball is in the air for just shy of five seconds (4.97 seconds, to be exact), hence, the feet per second drop off is amplified the longer the ball is in the air. However, feet per second is measured while a player is at max speed, not while he is accelerating. Since it typically takes about three seconds between the release of the pitch, and the moment the fielder reaches max speed, the feet per second is not factored in until after that point. Therefore, the average fly ball hang time of five seconds, minus the three seconds it takes to reach max speed, gives us an average of two seconds at max speed per fly ball.

    After taking that into consideration, we can calculate the rest of the factors, and see that Eddie Rosario’s ability to track down a fly ball has gone down by an average of four feet per fly ball. While on most fly balls, four feet won’t make much of a difference, over the course of a season, the number of fly balls where the extra four feet would make the difference starts to add up.

    Knowing this, the Twins need to ask themselves, is this something they can work with Eddie Rosario on? Has he simply lost a step athletically that he might not recover, or is Rosario simply having an off season in the field? Whatever the answer is, it is important for the Twins to work with Rosario, so they can either help him improve, or start to factor in this decline for their future evaluations of Rosario as an all-around player.

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    Wow.. Eddie is the most energetic guy on the team.  He delivers in the clutch, and is both a hitter for average/power, with above average speed/arm, who is also playing through a nagging ankle injury.  There is a certain brashness to his play - BIG DEAL, it makes him who he is in the clutch.  He is also a VERY good baseball player.  We DO NOT know if AK, Rooker, or Larnach can hit MLB pitching yet.  In fact, each has struggled a bit moving up a level.  MLB is the BIGGEST jump, and Rosario is a borderline all-Star every year.  You people are clueless to blow this dog whistle again.  I heard this same crap on TD a couple of years ago about Rosario, which abated as he tore up league pitching, yet here we go again. 

     

    We are also pitching quite well with at least 3/4 - 4/5 of the starters, and are going to need spots for Smeltzer, Graterol, Gonsalves/Stewart/Thorpe, Balazovic and Duran within two years or less.  So, you are proposing to trade a proven player like Rosario for a vet high mileage pitcher (this winter) and HOPE Larnach, Rooker, or AK don't take 2-3 years to figure out what took Buxton, Hicks, and others at least that many?  Glad we have no FAN GMs in charge.....I vote 'no' on trading our proven players for high mileage (overpriced) pitchers that may not even perform to Gibson or Pineda level, and only pitch every fifth day.

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    FWIW, bbref had Rosario listed as a plus defender (runs above average) in 2015-17. Not so much this year or last. 

     

    One thing I've repeatedly seen out of Eddie is jogging after balls that get past him  down the left field line. I've thought he was baiting guys to try for third on "automatic" doubles, believing he would throw them out of they tried to stretch for a triple.

     

    If throwing is included in these metrics, I have seen far fewer "huh?" throws from Eddie, but far fewer runners trying to take an extra base. He's gotten leather on, but not caught, several balls these last two seasons and my eyes tell me that his jumps on balls are worse, or at least not improved. 

     

    As far as trading Rosario, I don't know. He's been a borderline All-Star two straight years and loves the big moment. He has periods of invisibility . If someone from the Twins' system reduces his playing time, I do believe he could be moved without much loss on the field.

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    One other question:  IF you are down by one with a man on first with advancement on the line in the playoffs (2 outs, bottom of the 9th, winner take all), who do you want up to bat?

     

    1)  Kepler

     

    2)  Buxton

     

    3)  Sano

     

    4)  Polanco

     

    5)  Cruz

     

    6)  Rosario

     

    7)  Arraez/Cron/Garver/etal

     

    I am taking Rosario every time.  He has delivered (in both minors and majors), and thrives in these moments.  How did you feel about Aaron Hicks sticking it to us in the Yankees series a few weeks back?  Rosario would shove it up our backside worse than Hicks.

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    Wow.. Eddie is the most energetic guy on the team. He delivers in the clutch, and is both a hitter for average/power, with above average speed/arm, who is also playing through a nagging ankle injury. There is a certain brashness to his play - BIG DEAL, it makes him who he is in the clutch. He is also a VERY good baseball player. We DO NOT know if AK, Rooker, or Larnach can hit MLB pitching yet. In fact, each has struggled a bit moving up a level. MLB is the BIGGEST jump, and Rosario is a borderline all-Star every year. You people are clueless to blow this dog whistle again. I heard this same crap on TD a couple of years ago about Rosario, which abated as he tore up league pitching, yet here we go again.

     

    We are also pitching quite well with at least 3/4 - 4/5 of the starters, and are going to need spots for Smeltzer, Graterol, Gonsalves/Stewart/Thorpe, Balazovic and Duran within two years or less. So, you are proposing to trade a proven player like Rosario for a vet high mileage pitcher (this winter) and HOPE Larnach, Rooker, or AK don't take 2-3 years to figure out what took Buxton, Hicks, and others at least that many? Glad we have no FAN GMs in charge.....I vote 'no' on trading our proven players for high mileage (overpriced) pitchers that may not even perform to Gibson or Pineda level, and only pitch every fifth day.

    we're going to need spots for every minor league pitcher of note, but not one OF prospect can take Rosario's spot?

     

    Not sure that's realistic.

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    Darn it. Accidentally deleted my post.

     

    Rosario’s “clutch” stats are right in line with his overall stats both in 2019 and his career. Never trust the “eye” test. They usually lie.

     

    Rooker is already 24. It’s his turn. Marwin, Cave/Wade (I would expect one to be a roster casualty this offseason) and Astudillo are the “plan B” options. That’s plenty of a safety net.

     

    Who is talking about a “high mileage veteran” pitcher? Rosario won’t fetch a proven MLB starter. Reliever probably. Solid close to MLB ready prospect is more likely. Like a step up from Smeltzer for example.

     

     

    Let’s also bare in mind that money is always a factor in Twins roster decisions. The Twins have a far greater need for pitching than they do for Rosario IMO.

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    Someone somewhere also probably said a few years back that Nelson Cruz has lost a step too.  I find it difficult to replace a guy who has been doing it at the Major league level with some guys who project out to be Major league players.  Eddie is a really good player and you're just not going to replace him with some guy who has never played at the MLB level as of this point in time.  Now on the other hand, if when guys like Buxton go down with injuries the Twins were to bring one of those guys up instead of wade and Cave then they would be able to see if they can replace them.  

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    FWIW, bbref had Rosario listed as a plus defender (runs above average) in 2015-17. Not so much this year or last.

     

    And yet in 2015-2017 people complained about his defense and he was benched for his defense more than once by Molitor.

     

    I agree that he looks like the same defender this year that he looked like last year.

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    we're going to need spots for every minor league pitcher of note, but not one OF prospect can take Rosario's spot?

    Not sure that's realistic.

    The point wasn't that we have to find a spot for everyone of these pitchers, but one-two of them will be able to deliver 4.40-4.80 ERA, and 20-30 starts right out of the gate, or they will be optioned for one of about 7-8 other alternatives NEXT YEAR.  You will have Berrios, and at least two-three of Odo, Gibson, Pineda, and Perez (one has an option, two others will be re-signed is my guess). As for OF, you have to replace a borderline All Star (in trading Rosario), and expect 1 of 3 OFs to replace that level of DAILY production in their first or second year in MLB?  I don't see it....

     

    You are also not going to get a front-line starter without Rosario, and two Top 5 players.  Look at the trade deadline moves or lack thereof, for a guy that takes the ball every 5th day.  I sure wouldn't do that for an everyday borderline All Star and have only HOPES for a high end MiLB talent to produce in Year 1 or 2.  Losing proposition.  You also never know what you are going to get - all those starters and relievers we wanted going into this year and last have rarely panned out (Kuechel, Arrieta, Darvish......take your pick of relievers - NO THANKS).  Need to re-sign what we can, and grow our own.  Just my $.02

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    Someone somewhere also probably said a few years back that Nelson Cruz has lost a step too.  I find it difficult to replace a guy who has been doing it at the Major league level with some guys who project out to be Major league players.  Eddie is a really good player and you're just not going to replace him with some guy who has never played at the MLB level as of this point in time.  Now on the other hand, if when guys like Buxton go down with injuries the Twins were to bring one of those guys up instead of wade and Cave then they would be able to see if they can replace them.  

    Standing applause.  Two Dogs gets it.  There will be options next year to see what Larnach, Rooker, and AK can do.  Trading Rosario is NOT the way to 'get their feet wet.'  They are still more than 2-3 years from being a reasonable replacement (if we are lucky).  I would not have traded Rosario or Buxton straight up for Syndergaard either.  He is no better than 3-5 of our starters this year, and not nearly as good as Berrios.  (His past years are in the past unless he proves otherwise).  Wasn't he the board's MOST coveted starter via trade and above MadBum?  Who does the board think they could get as a Top Line starter for Rosario and a 5-10 ranked prospect?

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    Wow.. Eddie is the most energetic guy on the team.  He delivers in the clutch, and is both a hitter for average/power, with above average speed/arm, who is also playing through a nagging ankle injury.  There is a certain brashness to his play - BIG DEAL, it makes him who he is in the clutch.  He is also a VERY good baseball player.  We DO NOT know if AK, Rooker, or Larnach can hit MLB pitching yet.  In fact, each has struggled a bit moving up a level.  MLB is the BIGGEST jump, and Rosario is a borderline all-Star every year.  You people are clueless to blow this dog whistle again.  I heard this same crap on TD a couple of years ago about Rosario, which abated as he tore up league pitching, yet here we go again. 

     

    We are also pitching quite well with at least 3/4 - 4/5 of the starters, and are going to need spots for Smeltzer, Graterol, Gonsalves/Stewart/Thorpe, Balazovic and Duran within two years or less.  So, you are proposing to trade a proven player like Rosario for a vet high mileage pitcher (this winter) and HOPE Larnach, Rooker, or AK don't take 2-3 years to figure out what took Buxton, Hicks, and others at least that many?  Glad we have no FAN GMs in charge.....I vote 'no' on trading our proven players for high mileage (overpriced) pitchers that may not even perform to Gibson or Pineda level, and only pitch every fifth day.

     

    Where do you propose getting 4 pitchers next year, if not in trade (since you don't want older pitchers, which are the only available in trade or FA)?

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    Rosario was great the 1st half of 2018. Since then he has produced .9 Fwar. Zero for the 2nd half of last year and .9 to date this year. He is 10th among our position players in fWAR this season. I would sure hope one of our OF prospects could produce better than what we have seen in Rosario since the 1st half of last year. I also would not expect much in a trade.

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    Rosario was great the 1st half of 2018. Since then he has produced .9 Fwar. Zero for the 2nd half of last year and .9 to date this year. He is 10th among our position players in fWAR this season. I would sure hope one of our OF prospects could produce better than what we have seen in Rosario since the 1st half of last year. I also would not expect much in a trade.

    Agree on all fronts. At a minimum, one of the young guys can do that by their second year, and do it for a lot less money, which will be needed for pitching and hopefully Sano or Buxton.

     

    Wow, nice sentence....

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    Where do you propose getting 4 pitchers next year, if not in trade (since you don't want older pitchers, which are the only available in trade or FA)?

    I would re-sign two of them, and pick up the option on Perez.  Then, I would bring up the best of the 7-8 that are knocking on the door and stick with the one whom adapts the best.  Right now, though ERA is NOT the end all for pitchers, our starting pitchers are 7, 23, 38, 44, and 59 in ERA.  That is among 30 Teams of 5 starters each.  For a comparative, Keuchel (would be 30th if he qualified), Syndergaard is 35, Darvish is 49, Arrieta is 53, Wheeler is 54, and Sale is 62.  At one time or another, many on this board have salivated over these pitchers, many of which cost over $20MM/year.  Many also want to trade significant assets for them (Rosario, Lewis, Kiriloff, Graterol, etc...).  My question is why!?!?  IF you can sign two of Gibson/Pineda/Odo and pick up the option on Perez, why would you bother investing proven MLB players or top MiLB prospects for these high-cost and high-mileage pitchers with these types of results!?!  If you say it is just a 'down year' for this group, I ask you whether you would feel good trading a premium asset for a declining asset that is also going to cost you close to Mauer money (Darvish, or Sale)?  Not me.  You could lock up two of our three FA pitchers, whom are paid $5MM, $8.1MM, and $9MM respectively, for a great deal less than any of the above, say $12MM-$15MM, and you would be in better shape than all but a few teams (and you would not have to sacrifice an asset).  That is assuming they maintain performance, but you have the same concern with these older high-mileage options, as well.  Moreover, when are we going to open 1-2 spots for a young pitcher that is controllable, talented and cheap (from among Smeltzer, Graterol, Duran, Balazovic, etc), and might be the next Cole, Syndergaard, or Sale?  Waiting too long can cause the prospects to go stale in AAA (see Stewart, Gonsalves, all the relievers like JT Chargois, Reed, Burdi, etc), and cause significant 40 man issues.  This is a build for the long-haul, and even though I might want to 'go all in' in a year like this one, I don't see the pitcher out there this year (or this winter) that might be anything more than a reasonable replacement for a cheaper internal option.  And, as far as the playoffs go, we have seen some very good pitchers get shelled in the past few years of juiced baseballs - this year may be the worst yet.

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    Rosario was great the 1st half of 2018. Since then he has produced .9 Fwar. Zero for the 2nd half of last year and .9 to date this year. He is 10th among our position players in fWAR this season. I would sure hope one of our OF prospects could produce better than what we have seen in Rosario since the 1st half of last year. I also would not expect much in a trade.

    Hope is not a strategy, and given the struggles in moving up levels for all of our OF prospects, there is almost 0% chance that comparable performance will occur before year 3 - this is BY FAR the biggest jump, and pitchers will challenge them and adjust to what they do best.  (And don't bring up Arraez, he has not really struggled to hit at any level or adjust - he seems unique).  

     

    Additionally, it would be unwise to ignore clubhouse impact - I don't think you want to disrupt any of the core of; Rosario, Kepler, Buxton, Sano, or Berrios until they prove that they cannot win together.  They are all close, and have won in the minors together.  It reminds me of the Hrbek, Bruno, Gaetti, Viola, Puckett years.  Let them prove they cannot do it in their peak years, prior to breaking them up.  I would add to the core, not subtract from it.  It reminds me of the outburst for the mere cutting of Morin - the team does not want their mojo interrupted by Front Office decisions.  

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    I doubt three are brought back. That just seems unlikely. I'm all for one spot being planned for younger players.

     

    Perez has been awful, since his hot start, returning to the guy he was in the past. Why would you be in him being good next year, given his history?

     

    I agree the FA list looks bad, which is why I hated passing on Keuchel. Which is also why I think they'll have to make a trade, or have a pretty mediocre group of starters next year.

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    I doubt three are brought back. That just seems unlikely. I'm all for one spot being planned for younger players.

    Perez has been awful, since his hot start, returning to the guy he was in the past. Why would you be in him being good next year, given his history?

    I agree the FA list looks bad, which is why I hated passing on Keuchel. Which is also why I think they'll have to make a trade, or have a pretty mediocre group of starters next year.

     

    Kuechel only signed for this year, right. He is a free agent next season. Bumgarner / and Wheeler are FAs. I was hoping we would see Tehran this series as he is a FA at the end of the year.

    Gerrit Cole and Alex Wood would both be great acquisitions. I don’t think Houston can afford any more big contracts but I have read Cole want to play on the west coast. Not sure how hard it would be to pry Cole from Cincinnati.

     

    That’s quite a few good options. This is the year they need to pony up and land a top FA Starter. That addition to Berrios and at least one of our current starters plus whatever prospect steps up should make a better staff than this year. We could also sign Archer hoping for him to bounce back.

     

    I hope you get your wish this year and we land a top FA starter. The FAs should be more receptive than past years given the state of the team and we will be in the financial position to get it done. 

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    I would re-sign two of them, and pick up the option on Perez. Then, I would bring up the best of the 7-8 that are knocking on the door and stick with the one whom adapts the best.

     

     

    The only reason Perez is still in the rotation is because Pineada is on IL. He’s given up 4 or more runs in 8 of his last 11 starts. That’s not good.

     

     

    Who are these 7-8 knocking on the door? No, really, I’d like to know. Are you counting the guys on the AAA shuttle (Smeltzer, Thorpe, Littell, etc)? They are already in the door. Also, succeeding as a mop up reliever is very different from success as a starter.

     

     

    Right now, though ERA is NOT the end all for pitchers, our starting pitchers are 7, 23, 38, 44, and 59 in ERA. That is among 30 Teams of 5 starters each. For a comparative, Keuchel (would be 30th if he qualified), Syndergaard is 35, Darvish is 49, Arrieta is 53, Wheeler is 54, and Sale is 62. At one time or another, many on this board have salivated over these pitchers, many of which cost over $20MM/year. Many also want to trade significant assets for them (Rosario, Lewis, Kiriloff, Graterol, etc...). My question is why!?!? IF you can sign two of Gibson/Pineda/Odo and pick up the option on Perez, why would you bother investing proven MLB players or top MiLB prospects for these high-cost and high-mileage pitchers with these types of results!?! If you say it is just a 'down year' for this group, I ask you whether you would feel good trading a premium asset for a declining asset that is also going to cost you close to Mauer money (Darvish, or Sale)? Not me.

     

     

    As you say, there are 5 starting pitchers on every team. As of August 6, only one of the current members of the rotation is sure to be back next year. Just resign two of them? What if they don’t want to? Even with resigning two, the Twins still need two more. One might go to Smeltzer or someone else. But if Perez is back I think it would be a big mistake. The Twins also need 8 relievers. Rogers is really still the only sure thing next year. MAYBE May, Duffey and Harper stick. Maybe Littell joins them. Still need 3 more. At least two of them should be really good ones. We saw in June and July what can happen when a team is counting on unproven relievers to take key roles.

     

    There’s only one left fielder per team. I feel confident that Rooker won’t be a big enough drop off from Rosario as to substantially impact an offense that leads all of MLB in HR and is second in runs scored by .06 runs per game. The only position players not under control for 2020 are Schoop and Castro. As I mentioned previously, Marwin and others provide the safety net for Rooker.

     

    I don’t happen to believe Rosario is a premium asset. He’s a slightly better than average hitter and a bad defender. I’m also not suggesting using him to acquire an aging veteran starting pitcher. Because he isn’t going to bring that return. Might get a reliever. Should get at least a very close to MLB ready prospect that shows promise. As I said previously, someone who would be a step up from Smeltzer, who the Twins got for two months of Dozier. Rosario still has two more YEARS of control.

     

     

    You could lock up two of our three FA pitchers, whom are paid $5MM, $8.1MM, and $9MM respectively, for a great deal less than any of the above, say $12MM-$15MM, and you would be in better shape than all but a few teams (and you would not have to sacrifice an asset). That is assuming they maintain performance, but you have the same concern with these older high-mileage options, as well. Moreover, when are we going to open 1-2 spots for a young pitcher that is controllable, talented and cheap (from among Smeltzer, Graterol, Duran, Balazovic, etc), and might be the next Cole, Syndergaard, or Sale? Waiting too long can cause the prospects to go stale in AAA (see Stewart, Gonsalves, all the relievers like JT Chargois, Reed, Burdi, etc), and cause significant 40 man issues. This is a build for the long-haul, and even though I might want to 'go all in' in a year like this one, I don't see the pitcher out there this year (or this winter) that might be anything more than a reasonable replacement for a cheaper internal option. And, as far as the playoffs go, we have seen some very good pitchers get shelled in the past few years of juiced baseballs - this year may be the worst yet.

     

    Smeltzer is already in the rotation, so I’ll ignore him. Balazovic is still in A ball. He’s at least 1 1/2 years away. Graterol probably needs at least half a year in AAA. Duran at least two years away. Meaning none of them should be considered anything more than plan C or D for a team that hopes to contend next year.

     

     

    The prospects you named didn’t go stale. They got figured out and/or hurt.

     

    Yes, build for the long haul. Like it or not, in Twins territory that means making roster decisions with money as an important factor. Rosario might get upwards of $ 9 mil in arb next year. That’s $ 9 mil that won’t be spent on pitching.

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    Kuechel only signed for this year, right. He is a free agent next season. Bumgarner / and Wheeler are FAs. I was hoping we would see Tehran this series as he is a FA at the end of the year.

    Gerrit Cole and Alex Wood would both be great acquisitions. I don’t think Houston can afford any more big contracts but I have read Cole want to play on the west coast. Not sure how hard it would be to pry Cole from Cincinnati.

     

    That’s quite a few good options. This is the year they need to pony up and land a top FA Starter. That addition to Berrios and at least one of our current starters plus whatever prospect steps up should make a better staff than this year. We could also sign Archer hoping for him to bounce back.

     

    I hope you get your wish this year and we land a top FA starter. The FAs should be more receptive than past years given the state of the team and we will be in the financial position to get it done. 

     

    Ah, I thought Keuchel signed a 2 year deal, but you are correct.....I guess that doesn't really help next year.....

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    The only reason Perez is still in the rotation is because Pineada is on IL. He’s given up 4 or more runs in 8 of his last 11 starts. That’s not good.

     

     

    Who are these 7-8 knocking on the door? No, really, I’d like to know. Are you counting the guys on the AAA shuttle (Smeltzer, Thorpe, Littell, etc)? They are already in the door. Also, succeeding as a mop up reliever is very different from success as a starter.

     

     

     

     

    As you say, there are 5 starting pitchers on every team. As of August 6, only one of the current members of the rotation is sure to be back next year. Just resign two of them? What if they don’t want to? Even with resigning two, the Twins still need two more. One might go to Smeltzer or someone else. But if Perez is back I think it would be a big mistake. The Twins also need 8 relievers. Rogers is really still the only sure thing next year. MAYBE May, Duffey and Harper stick. Maybe Littell joins them. Still need 3 more. At least two of them should be really good ones. We saw in June and July what can happen when a team is counting on unproven relievers to take key roles.

     

    There’s only one left fielder per team. I feel confident that Rooker won’t be a big enough drop off from Rosario as to substantially impact an offense that leads all of MLB in HR and is second in runs scored by .06 runs per game. The only position players not under control for 2020 are Schoop and Castro. As I mentioned previously, Marwin and others provide the safety net for Rooker.

     

    I don’t happen to believe Rosario is a premium asset. He’s a slightly better than average hitter and a bad defender. I’m also not suggesting using him to acquire an aging veteran starting pitcher. Because he isn’t going to bring that return. Might get a reliever. Should get at least a very close to MLB ready prospect that shows promise. As I said previously, someone who would be a step up from Smeltzer, who the Twins got for two months of Dozier. Rosario still has two more YEARS of control.

     

     

     

    Smeltzer is already in the rotation, so I’ll ignore him. Balazovic is still in A ball. He’s at least 1 1/2 years away. Graterol probably needs at least half a year in AAA. Duran at least two years away. Meaning none of them should be considered anything more than plan C or D for a team that hopes to contend next year.

     

     

    The prospects you named didn’t go stale. They got figured out and/or hurt.

     

    Yes, build for the long haul. Like it or not, in Twins territory that means making roster decisions with money as an important factor. Rosario might get upwards of $ 9 mil in arb next year. That’s $ 9 mil that won’t be spent on pitching.

    Why is Duran at least two years away? He's in AA right now.

    He should start next year at AAA.

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    Why is Duran at least two years away? He's in AA right now.
    He should start next year at AAA.

     

    Agreed, but he shouldn't be one you count on to start next year at the beginning of the year. I'd say Smeltzer and, um, who else in the minors? That's really the point, imo.

     

    And no, I don't think Rosario returns a MLB starting pitcher....but he can part of a package to get a good/great prospect or two. That 9-12MM combined with other money will help with the pitching.

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    Agreed, but he shouldn't be one you count on to start next year at the beginning of the year. I'd say Smeltzer and, um, who else in the minors? That's really the point, imo.

     

    And no, I don't think Rosario returns a MLB starting pitcher....but he can part of a package to get a good/great prospect or two. That 9-12MM combined with other money will help with the pitching.

    Rosario + prospects can definitely be part of a package to get a good SP.

     

    You don’t think Rosario + say Gordon/SP prospect could get a good SP?

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    Why is Duran at least two years away? He's in AA right now.

    He should start next year at AAA.

    Where he has an ERA over 4. At A ball his ERA was barely better than league average. He’s not going to move up until that improves substantially. He more than likely starts 2020 in AA. Frankly, I think he’s being pushed too fast. He should still be in A ball IMO.

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    Where he has an ERA over 4. At A ball his ERA was barely better than league average. He’s not going to move up until that improves substantially. He more than likely starts 2020 in AA. Frankly, I think he’s being pushed too fast. He should still be in A ball IMO.

    I really hope the FO isn't even looking at ERA for minor leaguers, let alone in 11 inning sample sizes.

    Duran earned his promotion, and I suspect he'll do well at AA as well.

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    Rosario + prospects can definitely be part of a package to get a good SP.

    You don’t think Rosario + say Gordon/SP prospect could get a good SP?

     

    Hard to say. Rosario has, what, 2 years of arbitration left after this year? He'd have to go to a good team, needing an OF, and having a SP available. Is there even such a team? 

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    Hard to say. Rosario has, what, 2 years of arbitration left after this year? He'd have to go to a good team, needing an OF, and having a SP available. Is there even such a team? 

     

    I think he could also slot in for just about any MLB team needing a DH.  He likely would need to go to a good team though.  

     

    The immediate team that comes to mind that doesn't fit with the DH idea is the Mets who are looking for MLB ready players.  

     

    Things in the MLB change fast though.  Case in point Twins/Braves last year and this year.  There will be a fit.

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    I really hope the FO isn't even looking at ERA for minor leaguers, let alone in 11 inning sample sizes.

    Duran earned his promotion, and I suspect he'll do well at AA as well.

    As you say, he only has 11 IP at AA. He will probably make 4-5 more starts for 20-30 more IP. I certainly hope the Twins FO doesn’t deem him ready for AAA based on that SSS.

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    The only reason Perez is still in the rotation is because Pineada is on IL. He’s given up 4 or more runs in 8 of his last 11 starts. That’s not good.


    Who are these 7-8 knocking on the door? No, really, I’d like to know. Are you counting the guys on the AAA shuttle (Smeltzer, Thorpe, Littell, etc)? They are already in the door. Also, succeeding as a mop up reliever is very different from success as a starter.
     

     




    As you say, there are 5 starting pitchers on every team. As of August 6, only one of the current members of the rotation is sure to be back next year. Just resign two of them? What if they don’t want to? Even with resigning two, the Twins still need two more. One might go to Smeltzer or someone else. But if Perez is back I think it would be a big mistake. The Twins also need 8 relievers. Rogers is really still the only sure thing next year. MAYBE May, Duffey and Harper stick. Maybe Littell joins them. Still need 3 more. At least two of them should be really good ones. We saw in June and July what can happen when a team is counting on unproven relievers to take key roles.

    There’s only one left fielder per team. I feel confident that Rooker won’t be a big enough drop off from Rosario as to substantially impact an offense that leads all of MLB in HR and is second in runs scored by .06 runs per game. The only position players not under control for 2020 are Schoop and Castro. As I mentioned previously, Marwin and others provide the safety net for Rooker.

    I don’t happen to believe Rosario is a premium asset. He’s a slightly better than average hitter and a bad defender. I’m also not suggesting using him to acquire an aging veteran starting pitcher. Because he isn’t going to bring that return. Might get a reliever. Should get at least a very close to MLB ready prospect that shows promise. As I said previously, someone who would be a step up from Smeltzer, who the Twins got for two months of Dozier. Rosario still has two more YEARS of control.

     



    Smeltzer is already in the rotation, so I’ll ignore him. Balazovic is still in A ball. He’s at least 1 1/2 years away. Graterol probably needs at least half a year in AAA. Duran at least two years away. Meaning none of them should be considered anything more than plan C or D for a team that hopes to contend next year.


    The prospects you named didn’t go stale. They got figured out and/or hurt.

    Yes, build for the long haul. Like it or not, in Twins territory that means making roster decisions with money as an important factor. Rosario might get upwards of $ 9 mil in arb next year. That’s $ 9 mil that won’t be spent on pitching.

     

    I'll just note the following, we can agree to disagree:

     

    1)  Berrios, then sign two of Gibson/Odo/Pineda. If they 'don't want to sign,' focus on another of the three or pay a comparable pitcher as a FA - $12-$15MM.  (I don't see a huge market for any of the three, and perhaps they will stay with the right contract - we have the money with Castro coming off payroll).  Perez has an option.  If he continues to pitch like crap for the balance of this year or early next year, find an alternative that is a 'prove it' candidate, or if warranted by more than one of those from 2 below, bring another up. (BTW:  You never referenced the rankings of all the 'must have' pitchers - they don't look like 'sure things' either - where do you suggest finding one premier SP or 'up and comer' that is a near certainty, and at what level of 'over payment' in prospects and dollars?  What do you think it would take, and what would you be willing to give up for Darvish, Arrieta, Sale, Stroman, or Keuchel type numbers?

     

    2)  No.  None of the 7-8 I had referred to are actually 'in the door' until they are off the shuttle when their innings are exhausted and starting without a quick trip back to the minors.  I would let Thorpe and Smeltzer prove they can/cannot handle the 5th starter spot for first two months, then bring up Graterol (assuming health - no point in letting him languish in the minors or letting him be jerked around like Romero until his value plummets).  Colina, Duran or Balazovic may be ready by later in the year - maybe not.  But, there is little need for every pitcher to make a pit stop in AAA - the best just don't need it.  Not sure where ours will fall, but Colina seems to be handling AA just fine with 60+ innings.

     

    2)  Rooker will likely strike out more than Sano in first few years of MLB, and is no 'gem' in the OF - less capable to hit .280, slower, less arm.  I simply don't agree.  Nor do I think Marwin is any form of insurance for Rooker or reasonable replacement for Rosario (on the field or in the clubhouse).  He is also needed in too many other positions versus LF.  Neither AK nor Larnach will be ready yet either to replace Rosario...Don't they need the proverbial AAA stop as with pitchers?  Surely, they are 1.5-2.0 years away given their AA experience and performance.

     

    3)  So, jury already out on Dyson?  I wasn't impressed with SSS, but hunting for two more reasonably capable relievers can come from a better than Addison Reed FA signing, or a lower cost trade; a couple of players ranked 10-20.  Did you see how many of the 'top tier' relievers or 'second tier' were washouts or unmitigated disasters this year?  I would not trade a borderline All Star everyday player for one RP, unless a Pressley type (and that won't likely happen - it will require an overpay to get a Pressley).  Many relievers that fare well are 'found' as failed starters, or buried under aged tinder on other teams (our analytics group and Falvey are supposedly great at finding these types - they need to prove it)  

     

    4)  I disagree on stale.  Romero has become stale, as were many of our relievers from the past that were constantly trapped by cast-offs and cheap signings:  (Morin, Drake, Duke, Abad, Boshers, Fien, Belisle, Breslow, Melville, etal).  It is past time to see what these younger assets have to offer; whether they are Littel, Romero, Eaves, Poppen, Gonsalves, or Stewart.  I would also move Romero back to SP, as the RP experiment isn't yielding any dividends.  I wouldn't rule out a Hackimer possibility either late next year.  He has better stuff than Hildenberger did.   

     

    In short, as illustrated for this year by their ranking in my original post (go back to Arrieta, Darvish, Keuchel, Sale - all 30-60), buying a high-priced and high-mileage SP provides no assurances whatsoever, and they only pitch every 5th day.  RP is kind of a mixed bag of unattainable performers that are cost prohibitive, or a 'converted' pitcher that is 'found' by the developing or acquiring club.  An everyday player high-value asset traded (plus a high prospect) with no realistic back-up(s) of comparable ability is not a sound strategy.  We can dispute 'high value asset,' but I put more stock in Rosario's performance and league-wide rankings than the opinion of any poster on TD.  FWIW

     

     

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    As you say, he only has 11 IP at AA. He will probably make 4-5 more starts for 20-30 more IP. I certainly hope the Twins FO doesn’t deem him ready for AAA based on that SSS.

    Ok, but even if he moves up to AAA after the draft, that still doesn't fit the timeline of "at least two years away".

     

    I mean, it very well could take two years, because injuries and setbacks can occur, but he also could be ready by this time next year.

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    Hard to say. Rosario has, what, 2 years of arbitration left after this year? He'd have to go to a good team, needing an OF, and having a SP available. Is there even such a team? 

     

    I was thinking the same thing, Mike. A team that would want Rosario is not a team that would be likely to be giving up good starting pitching. Not impossible but very uncommon.

     

    Between Gibson / Odorizzi / Pineda / Reed / Hughes / Sanatana / Morrison / Schoop and Castro, we have $57M coming off the books. Sign two of Gibson / Odorizzi / Pineda. What's market value? Roughly $25-28M for two of them. That leaves around $30M to spend on other pitching and there are some good FA starting pitchers next year. Kuechel will be back on the market along with Bumgarner. Cole will be the big prize. Zack Wheeler is having a mediocre year but he is a good candidate as well.

     

    Bottom line is they don't have to trade anyone. The core position players will remain reasonably priced for the next 3 years. I would probably try to extend Gibson now. It's a good message. He has been a good team guy and consistent (albeit average) performer who is at times quite good. He is also in great shape and a good candidate to age well. Then, sign one of Odorizzi / Pineda. Players like to stay with their teams. Plus this going to be a good team for awhile. We should be able to keep one of them. Now go get the best SP on the open market. I would say go get Cole but the word is he wants to play on the west coast. Some things you just can't fight but go get the best SP truly available to us.

     

    Smeltzer gets the 5th spot. Use the team option on Perez if you want a long man or if you believe he can be effective as a RP.  You still have enough budget for another RP.

    Edited by Major League Ready
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