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    Seth Stohs

    The bullpen has been an issue for the Twins during the first half of the 2017 season. While expectations were not high going into the season coming off of a 103-loss season, the Twins are above .500 as the All-Star Game approaches.

    Following the All-Star break, Twins Daily will be a great place for Twins fans to keep up with the rumors. Who are some of the players that the Twins could acquire from other organizations if they are buyers? How about if they become sellers? Which prospects might the Twins be willing to trade?

    Image courtesy of Jake Roth, USA Today

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    Two relievers are believed to be on the market already, playing on teams that are clearly playing for the future. They are relief pitchers who could make the Twins bullpen stronger during the second half.

    In addition to their tremendous on-field statistics, these two players are #OneOfUs. Brooklyn Park grad Pat Neshek and Chaska High School alum Brad Hand are having great seasons. On Sunday, both were named to the National League All-Star squads, and not just because their teams had to have one representative. Today we consider why these are guys who could help the Twins, and what it might cost to get them.

    DISCLAIMER: I know there is a sentiment among many Twins Daily readers that ‘bringing back the band’ or acquiring guys who are “one of us” is a bad thing. However, I tend to believe that if the player remains good and can help a team win, then it just doesn’t matter. If Pat Neshek and/or Brad Hand can help the Twins win games in 2017, I don’t care if they’re from Minnesota or Texas. Australia or Venezuela. They happen to be from Minnesota.

    In the Twins history, we’ve seen both sides of this. Terry Steinbach and Dave Winfield being brought back worked out. Bringing back Jason Kubel and Jason Bartlett didn’t pan out. We’ve seen how Twins fans can turn on players when they don’t become what we thought they might, or they didn’t measure up in some way. We’ve seen one of the top five hitters in the organization’s history and a Minnesotan bashed to a crazy, unfair degree, in part because he’s from Minnesota. Imagine the scrutiny Kent Hrbek might have endured had he played during the age of Twitter.

    PAT NESHEK

    Let’s start with Pat Neshek since he’s got a bit of a double whammy. Not only is he from Minnesota, he was drafted by the Twins in 1999 and 2002, and played in the big leagues for the Twins between 2006 and 2010. He came up and used his funky delivery to dominate hitters immediately. He had Tommy John and missed most of 2008, all of 2009, and most of 2010.

    The Twins let him go in the spring of 2011 and he bounced around a bit. He took off again in 2014 with the Cardinals. In fact, that’s the year that he made his first All-Star appearance, ironically in Target Field. He signed a two-year deal with the Astros, with an option for 2017. After he was traded to the Phillies, they picked up his option for this year at $6.5 million. He will be a free agent at the end of the season.

    Neshek will turn 37 in September. This year, he has worked 32.1 innings for the Phillies. He’s struck out 8.2 per nine, a K-rate of 26.1%. He’s walked just 2.1 per nine. He’s given up just two home runs this season.

    He has a 1.39 ERA and a 0.87 WHIP. If you enjoy FIP and xFIP, his numbers are 2.41 and 3.59. He has a WAR of 1.1 already this season.

    From sidearm, Neshek has thrown 49.7% fastballs with an average velocity of 90.1. He has also thrown 47% sliders at 83.1 mph. He throws a changeup too, but just 3% of the time. 73% of his 491 pitches have been strikes.

    The Phillies are 28-55, so there is little reason for them to hold on to a veteran with an expiring contract in the second half.

    BRAD HAND

    Likewise, the Padres are just 36-48 at the halfway point of the season. They have three Rule 5 players on their roster and a plan to continue adding more young talent.

    Brad Hand was the second-round pick of the Marlins way back in 2008 out of high school. He signed and by June of 2011, he was a 21-year-old in the big leagues. He struggled with the Marlins, particularly as a starter. Last spring, the Marlins DFAd him and he ended up with the Padres. He’s become one of the better, and most used, relievers in baseball.

    Last year, he posted a 2.92 ERA over a league-leading 82 games. This year, he’s already pitched in 40 games and has a 2.42 ERA and a 0.94 WHIP. He has struck out 11.2 per nine innings while walking just 2.4 per nine. He’s given up less than a home run per nine innings.

    His FIP is 2.88, with an xFIP of 2.96. He’s pitched to a WAR of 1.0.

    Hand throws 49% fastballs at an average of 93.3 mph. He also throws his slider about 45% of the time, at 82 mph. His third pitch is more of a slow curve ball, which he throws just six percent of the time.

    Hand turned 27 in spring training. 2017 was his first year of arbitration and he’s making just shy of $1.4 million. In 2018, he will again be arbitration-eligible for the second time.He’ll have his third and final arbitration in 2019 before having the potential to become a free agent after the 2019 World Series.

    WHAT IT MIGHT TAKE

    There are reportedly several teams evaluating and considering acquiring Neshek including the Nationals. The belief is that it won’t take a ton to get Neshek, a “low level prospect.” Because there are other teams interested, the price could get raised a bit. I would guess it would take a top 20 prospect.

    To acquire Hand, it is likely to cost the Twins (or another team) much more. He’s nearly ten years younger and has two-and-a-half years under a team’s control. There is value in that. There is no other reason for the Padres to trade him, other that they can ask for the world for him and sell very high. He would likely require a top 10 prospect and a second or even a third piece.

    Do the Twins have the pieces to make these moves? No question. Do they want to outbid other teams and match the requirements of the teams? That we don’t know.

    Would the Twins have any desire to acquire One of Us, maybe even Two of Us?

    What would you do? How much (and name names) would you be willing to give up for these two guys?

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    It's weird...many of the same posters who daily lament the state of the bullpen are the same ones who argue against the Twins taking actual steps to improve it.

    "Don't trade...wait for magical internal improvement" isn't a very good plan.

     

    I'd rather buy them in the off season if this team just cannot develop their own. Even the most expensive of relievers is still affordable to the Twins. Can't say that about the best starting pitchers or position players.

     

    Relievers are so combustible I'd not want to trade off top 5 organizational talent for a guy just as likely to bust as to contribute. I'm about as far away from trusting a pitcher coming from San Diego as I am from trusting one straight out of Junior College.

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    I'm always for adding talent. Of the internal candidates, do we expect any of them to be all star relievers? That's what we'd trading for. If Neshek is cheap, he may be willing to sign an extension for cheap to finish his career here. Preferably I'd like a longer look at Rosario, Buesenitz, and Hildenberger before trading for help. We're doing that a bit. So far the results are fairly uninspiring which makes me wonder about Melo, Curtis, Reed, etc. About their potential impact vs rearranging the prospect deck chairs. Seems like we're on that path. I assume we'll look to help the pen here after the break. I'd also maybe shop Kintzler and just see what he could get.

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    "b.Getting to the post season as a wild card team without any plan for long term winning it all will give you about as much possibility of wining as practically not being there.Ask the Twins of the 00s if you don't believe me.Been there done that, should learn something from it."

     

    Twins of the 00's never got there as a wild card team, had MVP's, Cy Young's and Relief Pitchers of the Year that simply didn't get the job done.    The fact that they didn't get the job done doesn't mean that they couldn't have gotten the job done.   Astros are a really good team but good starts from Santana and Berrios can defeat them just like getting good starts from Blyleven and Viola did the Tigers.    Ask the 2015 Royals if getting in as a wild card team was practically the same as not being there.    I have no problem getting better by getting a good relief pitcher depending on what is given up, as always.  

     

    "c. One bullpen arm, even though better than no arm, would not close all of the Twins holes towards getting to the postseason and going far in it.And potentially that single arm could be Curtiss, Bard, Reed etc."

    Ok, that one really lost me.   One bullpen arm does not close all the holes but potentially Curtiss, Bard, etc could be that single arm?    Getting Hand should not block any or all of those guys from succeeding and getting Hand along with one or even two of those guys stepping up turns our bullpen depth from a weakness to a strength.   KC got to one and won another WS with weak rotations, holes in the lineup and suspect starting pitching.    Not the formula I would treat as a blueprint of success but getting a good reliever gets us closer to an ideal blueprint not farther away from it.

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    I'd rather buy them in the off season if this team just cannot develop their own. Even the most expensive of relievers is still affordable to the Twins. Can't say that about the best starting pitchers or position players.

     

    Yup. Still can't believe that 4 years of Andrew Miller cost less than the 3 year Phil Hughes extension...

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    I hate the SEC and ALL things ESPN Insider (completely irrational?   Yes, beyond a doubt).

     

    Ok, that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with this article (nice right up btw Seth), I just wanted to get that out there.

     

    IMHO (and yes I know that means absolutely nothing), trading for either of those players right now just doesn't seem to make good business sense.   I still love to watch Neshek pitch and love that another MN kid has made it good in the bigs, but...

    I can't help but feel that even IF a trade for either Hand or Neshek worked out in the Twins favor in some way it would amount to the baseball equivalent of a Pyrrhic Victory.  How much would the minors and organization overall bleed to make that gain? 

     

    Oh and btw... Granite? For those of us who have seen him play in person, yes he does have as much or even potentially more upside than Rosario.

     

     

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    2017 is not THE YEAR. This season is still developmental, a year for testing guys from within the system. This is the year we found out that Berrios is for real, that Mejia is getting solid, that Grossman is actually a ballplayer, not just a walk machine. Let us not pretend that trading prospects for a couple good relievers will send this team to the Series. 

     

    We have seen some mixed results from the minors this season, but some of them look very good. Busenitz and Hildenberger look good. Jorge looked surprisingly good. All these guys are young, under contract for several years, and appear talented. 2017 should be a season for many more of these tests. We should see Zach Granite, Mitch Garver, Gonsalves, Stewart, Jorge... maybe even a cuppa coffee for Gordon and Vielma. 

     

    The Twins should tend their own garden, not grab other people's fruit. 

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    IMO...FWIW:

     

    No to Neshak unless he may be open to re-signing and only cost a decent A level prospect. This team is still finishing a rebuild and there are young options close, or that should already be up.

     

    Maybe on Hand. But the cost to get him shortens prospects close to contributing, and shortens trade options for a possible SP now or in the off season.

     

    Maybe I'm just an optimist, but despite injuries and the such, there are several guys right now deserving of their shot to help this season and next while building for the future. Doesn't it make sense to promote and work with these guys? There is both FA and off season trades next off season if we just aren't happy with development. And again, if we're going to trade prospects, I'd rather go the SP route.

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    In a heart beat. The Padres would not do that though. 

     

    Might be closer than you think. Hand is good but he's not a top tier reliever. Depends what they think of Stewart.

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    Oh and btw... Granite? For those of us who have seen him play in person, yes he does have as much or even potentially more upside than Rosario.

     I have to ask, if you believe Granite has more upside than Rosario (who is almost exactly 1 year older) why has Rosario been in the big league part of 3 years and Granite has spent only a few months in AAA? Rosario has a higher career OPS in the majors than Granite has in the minors?

    This is coming from a guy that doesn't think Rosario is much more than a 4th outfielder (hoping I am wrong)

    I love reading the comments on this site, but man do people have the back up QB syndrome.

     

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    I would gladly trade two minor league relief pitchers (or a future 4th or 5th starter, example Stewart) for a proven better than average major league relief pitcher with a few years of control.  My thought is that Hand on the Twins gives us 2+ years of a proven relief pitcher compared to a couple of mid 20s minor leagues. IMO

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    I am all for improving, but you got to get a rotation arm at the Berrios level, a couple of arms better than Kintzler in the pen and at least one, maybe 2 bats in order to have a chance against the Astros in the post season.   If they are willing to do all of that, have at it.  I am just done with half rear end "improvement" jobs and living on a prayer for the rest

    I think you're giving the Astros waaaaaay too much credit.  Look at what they've been padding out their record and building up their confidence with all season.  I mean, what if the Twins got to play the A's, Angels and Rangers as much as they do, I'll bet we'd look pretty studly too.  I also think back on that 11 run inning our bullpen served up last May and can't help but wonder how that series may have played out had the bullpen been better.

     

    My next pet peeve, is how little respect most of us give to the other teams in the central, because, you know, the Twins are in the central and so the central must suck, right?  4 of the last 5 AL pennant winners came from the central and that includes 2015's world champs.  Cleveland has a 5-1 record against Houston and KC is 4-3.  That doesn't sound unbeatable to me.

     

    I don't think this team is nearly as far away as most want to believe and I don't think they have to give up nearly as much as people want to believe to make a serious run at the post season.

     

    I definitely think the team should be buyers (but not renters - except for Neshek because he was one of my favorite players when he was here).  They should be actively looking at cellar dweller rosters for players they think will help the team. They should especially be looking for salary dumps with multiple years left on their contracts.  Make a few low ball offers and see what happens.

     

    Salary dump = don't wanter seller = real bargains.

     

    The only thing I would be mad about Neshek and Hand would be if the team didn't at least try to make a trade.  Neshek sounds like a for sure salary dump and could probably be had for very little.

     

    Just because other teams are interested doesn't mean they're offering anything worth while.  They're middle relievers for crying out loud!  Ain't nobody out there is going to be trading their best and brightest for a middle reliever.  Stop with the Gordon and Stewart talk already.  This is doable and the team shouldn't have to give up any player that fits into their immediate future to pull it off.

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    I think you're giving the Astros waaaaaay too much credit. Look at what they've been padding out their record and building up their confidence with all season. I mean, what if the Twins got to play the A's, Angels and Rangers as much as they do, I'll bet we'd look pretty studly too. I also think back on that 11 run inning our bullpen served up last May and can't help but wonder how that series may have played out had the bullpen been better.

     

    My next pet peeve, is how little respect most of us give to the other teams in the central, because, you know, the Twins are in the central and so the central must suck, right? 4 of the last 5 AL pennant winners came from the central and that includes 2015's world champs. Cleveland has a 5-1 record against Houston and KC is 4-3. That doesn't sound unbeatable to me.

     

    I don't think this team is nearly as far away as most want to believe and I don't think they have to give up nearly as much as people want to believe to make a serious run at the post season.

     

    I definitely think the team should be buyers (but not renters - except for Neshek because he was one of my favorite players when he was here). They should be actively looking at cellar dweller rosters for players they think will help the team. They should especially be looking for salary dumps with multiple years left on their contracts. Make a few low ball offers and see what happens.

     

    Salary dump = don't wanter seller = real bargains.

     

    The only thing I would be mad about Neshek and Hand would be if the team didn't at least try to make a trade. Neshek sounds like a for sure salary dump and could probably be had for very little.

     

    Just because other teams are interested doesn't mean they're offering anything worth while. They're middle relievers for crying out loud! Ain't nobody out there is going to be trading their best and brightest for a middle reliever. Stop with the Gordon and Stewart talk already. This is doable and the team shouldn't have to give up any player that fits into their immediate future to pull it off.

    Its not that complicated. No need to look at strength of schedule or padded record or any of that.

    We played them head to head and it left zero doubt they were the much better team.

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    Its not that complicated. No need to look at strength of schedule or padded record or any of that.
    We played them head to head and it left zero doubt they were the much better team.

    They were the better team after 6 innings.  Up to the 6th, not so much.  Before that you have a team that was leading or close to it in all three games.

     

    Once again, you are giving the Astros way to much credit and not nearly enough to the Twins and the division they play in.

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    I think you're giving the Astros waaaaaay too much credit. 

     

    Last time I checked, the Astros came to the Twins' home and swept them with the closest game being a 5 run deficit for the Twins.  That's about the credit I give them...

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    Last time I checked, the Astros came to the Twins' home and swept them with the closest game being a 5 run deficit for the Twins. That's about the credit I give them...

    So did the Indians. But the the Twins turned right back around and swept them on the road. Or something like that. The Twins aren't on the same level as the Astros, yet, but the Astros aren't some invincible super team.

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    I don't like the idea of trading anything if value for Neshek, but would be fine with it if they could get him at a steal and sign him up for next year.  Either way, I'd be fine with signing Neshek as a free agent this off-season.

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    FO really hindered the season by not acquiring any high-caliber relievers. Not sure what they were thinking..

    It's not so much what the FO was thinking. It's what the high-caliber relievers were thinking. And they were all thinking, "Twins? No thanks."

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    The Twins aren't on the same level as the Astros, yet, but the Astros aren't some invincible super team.

    They are very close to it. And they will probably pick up a couple pieces before the trading deadline to put the hammer down. At least I would if I were running that team. This is the year for them to go all in. And for that reason they would make a better offer than the Twins would for either of these pitchers. Or pretty much anyone else who is available. 

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    It's not so much what the FO was thinking. It's what the high-caliber relievers were thinking. And they were all thinking, "Twins? No thanks."

     

    That may have anything to do with FA relievers but nothing to do with trades.  For example:  The Red Sox got Kimbrell \a couple seasons ago at his age 27 season for a song from the Padres.  He had no choice in the matter.

    Edited by Thrylos
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    That may have anything to do with FA relievers but nothing to do with trades.  For example:  The Red Sox got Kimbrell \a couple seasons ago at his age 27 season for a song from the Padres.  He had no choice in the matter.

    Point well taken. So whom do you think we could have traded for and at what cost?

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    Point well taken. So whom do you think we could have traded for and at what cost?

     

    Felipe Rivero, Addison Reed, Tyler Thornburg, for starters.  And that is not hindsight.  Go look at the relief leaders of 2016 for K-BB% and pick the non-closers.  Simple.  How much? I don't care, but even a couple of pen prospects would worth the cost.

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    If they are close at the deadline you gotta go for it. Too many times we waited in the 2000'sfor our star prospects to come up and we ended up with 2011 and we all know the story from there. I admire the Royals way of thinking. They have no farm system left but they have 2 WS appearances and one ring. And sure as hell theyre looking to buy right now when everyone thought they'd be sellers this season. Got to strike while the iron is hot. At least set yourself up for the near future. No need to sell the farm but you don't need every prospect either.

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    I'm not saying we don't have a chance. (I actually think we have a really nice club that is pretty close and going to keep getting better). And I'm not saying to not make a trade, especially if it's for the long term rather than the short.

     

    But I find it interesting how conversation has shifted over the past few months...generally speaking...how this team wouldn't even finish .500 and we need to play the prospects. Now, this team is over .500 and playing the kids, and starting to play more of them. For example, Jorge getting a pair of starts, Hilgenberger, Busentiz and even Randy Rosario getting a first shot. ( Though we do need to see more of both Hilgenberger and Busentz). Reed and Curtiss are looking fantastic and should be in line for a look-see in the not too distant future.

     

    So which is it? We were supposed to be bad so play the kids. Now we're pretty good so trade some of the kids for other veteran players? Again, not saying the Twins shouldn't make moves, or that it would be a mistake. It's just an interesting twist of expectation vs results for this season. Personally, I'd kind of like to see how the pen shakes out a little more with the kids before making a move. It bodes well, potentially, for now and the future both, while allowing us to hold on to prospects for maybe a SP trade at some point.

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    Had the Twins moved when I hinted both these guys should be acquired (a month ago to the day), they'd have a comfy lead in the AL Central. Can't say I'm interested in losing Nick Gordon, Zach Granite, or any arms that are nearly MLB-ready, but otherwise I'm game.

     

    I don't see this team competing with its current bullpen, and we've seen what the starters look like against legitimate contenders like Boston. There are at least three moves that will need to be made to make this thing interesting.

     

    I'd happily give up a top-10 and another prospect for Hand given his years of control. He's my favorite, and I think the Twins should get him whether they're buying or selling.

     

    Neshek would be a cherry on top if the Twins are in it. Just think what it'd be like to have two guys you can rely on when the starters flame out, leaving runners on base in the sixth (or fifth), pushing Duffey and Rogers into lower-leverage situations. 

     

    I like what I saw from Felix Jorge, but relying on him the rest of the way isn't ideal for a contender. You gotta do it sometime, though, right? I'd like to make Hector Santiago disappear (90-day DL) and give his spot to a legitimate third starter (Jake Odorizzi perhaps). Then Gibson and Jorge fill out the back end. 

     

    Most interesting is the tough position in which Falvey and Levine find themselves in their first year on the job. I can't wait for the Trade Deadline to see whether they buy, sell, or try to do both.

     

    Prediction: They'll make some "Terry Ryan" move for a reliever and hopefully not give up too much. Ervin stays because who the hell else is going to pitch all those innings? I think Escobar and Rosario will be shopped but won't draw a crowd. Could package them together for pitching and go with Granite and Polanco/Adrianza, but Escobar's versatility, bat, and charisma is something this team needs regardless of the standings. I wouldn't mind losing Rosario, but he won't get us much. Luckily the Twins have the prospects.

     

    I'm predicting the Twins make multiple trades. That's right. Going out on a limb and making the over/under 1.5 and taking the over. I think Twins fans would scream bloody murder if the Falvey/Levine regime starts with a Terry Ryan Trade Deadline, and I'd like to think Falvey and Levine are better equipped with assets and intelligence to make the deadline work for them, regardless of the standings.

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    I'm not saying we don't have a chance. (I actually think we have a really nice club that is pretty close and going to keep getting better). And I'm not saying to not make a trade, especially if it's for the long term rather than the short.

     

    But I find it interesting how conversation has shifted over the past few months...generally speaking...how this team wouldn't even finish .500 and we need to play the prospects. Now, this team is over .500 and playing the kids, and starting to play more of them. For example, Jorge getting a pair of starts, Hilgenberger, Busentiz and even Randy Rosario getting a first shot. ( Though we do need to see more of both Hilgenberger and Busentz). Reed and Curtiss are looking fantastic and should be in line for a look-see in the not too distant future.

     

    So which is it? We were supposed to be bad so play the kids. Now we're pretty good so trade some of the kids for other veteran players? Again, not saying the Twins shouldn't make moves, or that it would be a mistake. It's just an interesting twist of expectation vs results for this season. Personally, I'd kind of like to see how the pen shakes out a little more with the kids before making a move. It bodes well, potentially, for now and the future both, while allowing us to hold on to prospects for maybe a SP trade at some point.

    As others have pointed out playing the kids provides both development for them and better players right now. So win-win with what they are doing.

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    Had the Twins moved when I hinted both these guys should be acquired (a month ago to the day), they'd have a comfy lead in the AL Central.

    How many MLB players of value are traded at the beginning on June?  It's rare enough that unless you have a specific offer to overwhelm the trading team, I'm guessing they will hold on to any good players (like Neshek and Hand) and wait for the market to develop in July.

     

    You can sometimes find scuffling buy-low types like Sam Dyson around that time, and since a shaky first appearance with San Fran (against the Twins, no less), Dyson has been pretty good, and in high-leverage situations too.  We probably should have picked him up, at least to take Breslow's spot.

     

     

    I like what I saw from Felix Jorge, but relying on him the rest of the way isn't ideal for a contender. You gotta do it sometime, though, right? I'd like to make Hector Santiago disappear (90-day DL) and give his spot to a legitimate third starter (Jake Odorizzi perhaps). Then Gibson and Jorge fill out the back end. 

    The Rays are pretty much even with the Twins and the other wild card contenders right now, so they probably aren't selling for less than top value, which could be pretty high given Odorizzi's record and future control.  Also, Alex Cobb is the soon-to-be-free-agent on their staff, and I think Tampa would do their best to move him before other assets.

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    Preller from the Padres is expecting a boatload in return for Hand, he has already said as much. I would cross him off the list.

    There will probably be several other teams who will offer more than the Twins are willing to offer.

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    How many MLB players of value are traded at the beginning on June?  It's rare enough that unless you have a specific offer to overwhelm the trading team, I'm guessing they will hold on to any good players (like Neshek and Hand) and wait for the market to develop in July.

     

    You can sometimes find scuffling buy-low types like Sam Dyson around that time, and since a shaky first appearance with San Fran (against the Twins, no less), Dyson has been pretty good, and in high-leverage situations too.  We probably should have picked him up, at least to take Breslow's spot.

     

     

    The Rays are pretty much even with the Twins and the other wild card contenders right now, so they probably aren't selling for less than top value, which could be pretty high given Odorizzi's record and future control.  Also, Alex Cobb is the soon-to-be-free-agent on their staff, and I think Tampa would do their best to move him before other assets.

    Just because June trades don't happen often doesn't mean they can't. There were even rumors that the Padres were willing to move Hand in June. The same link also cites the trade that landed Jake Arrieta in Chicago (finalized on July 2). So while unconventional, June trades do happen and can work out.

     

    I guess my hope is Falvey and Levine are everything Ryan isn't and expect them to be crazy unconventional. I'm with you on Tampa, but there's a lot of time for them to scuffle, just like there's plenty of time for the Twins to do the same.

     

    I think KC is going to start running away with the Central, and Cleveland will figure it out and get a Wild Card spot. I don't think Tampa sticks with NYY, but they certainly have a competent pitching staff, which is more than I can say for the Twins.

     

    I actually don't think Falvey and Levine will make a move for a starter. My money's on Kintzler being moved to a contender (like Fernando Abad was), and the Twins going all in on Hand and maybe bringing Neshek back if the price is right, and they're still in it at the Deadline.

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