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  • Twins, Rockies Talk Tulowitzki


    Jeremy Nygaard

    First and foremost, there are literally hundreds of thousands of trade conversations that happen between teams throughout the season and especially as the end of July rolls around. If the Twins weren’t talking to every team about ways to improve their team, that would be extremely disappointing.

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    Jim Bowden posted a piece called Anatomy of a Trade (Insider required) yesterday at ESPN and - to everyone’s surprise - it was fantastic. It discusses how trades come together and he goes through a hypothetical trade that takes place… and how it progresses over the course of nearly 40 days.

    This hypothetical trade ends with both teams coming to an agreement at the deadline. But you must keep in mind that for every one that goes through, there are probably hundreds that never grow legs and die.

    One conversation that I can confirm has happened - and continues to happen - is between the Twins and the Colorado Rockies. It’s still in the infant stages. In fact, the idea sprouted after an All-Star break where the Twins All-Star second baseman, Brian Dozier, and the Rockies All-Star shortstop, Troy Tulowitzki, “bonded.”

    As Bowden suggests in his piece, the first call is made and the initial offer is “usually lopsided and downright embarrassing.” I don’t know who made the first offer, but the Rockies’ top target is Kyle Gibson. They’ve also asked for Miguel Sano. The Twins target? Troy Tulowitzki.

    Where do negotiations go from here? If the Rockies insist on a top arm, there are really only a couple of options. Besides Gibson, you’d have to imagine that Jose Berrios will be brought up. And possibly Trevor May and/or Alex Meyer to a lesser extent. But as far the “headliner” goes, only Gibson and Berrios could really fit in that category.

    With ten days to go, this discussion could really morph in a lot of different directions. In the right deal, the Rockies would be willing to send some cash. (Seth covered Tulowitzki’s contract really well in this piece posted early today, so I don’t feel the need to re-hash it.) In any deal where money is sent, the Rockies would ask for a better return.

    Would the Twins have interest in acquiring other pieces from the Rockies? Both LaTroy Hawkins and John Axford could be valuable additions to the Twins bullpen. The Twins have also asked about Rockies catcher Nick Hundley, who is under contract through next season and having his best offensive season since 2011.

    If you’re wondering how the Rockies could deal the face of their franchise, it seems like they might be ready to move on from the duo of Tulowitzki and Carlos Gonzalez, with star 3B Nolan Arenado and All-Star 2B D.J. LaMahieu taking over. Moving Tulo, CarGo and potentially Charlie Blackmon could add a lot of valuable pieces to a franchise who has struggled almost as badly as the Twins have over the past five seasons.

    None of that means that a deal is going to happen. Not with the Twins or with anyone else. All things have to line up perfectly for a deal to get done.

    As one source familiar with the talks told me, if the Twins make it through their gauntlet-of-a-week this week, “talks will get serious and move fast.”

    Whether you like Tulowitzki or not, the Twins are having conversations with the intent of getting better this year.

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    they placed a very bad bet, given what we know about tall pitchers, imo. As I said at the time, the idea is good, but needs to be judged on how good Meyer turns out. Had I known the history of tall pitchers, I would have ripped it mercilessly at the time.

     

    I guess I have to disagree here.  I think there's some 20/20 hindsight that tends to ignore some things.  He was a top 100 prospect coming off of a very good year and rocketed up into the top 50 in most lists.  He has top of the rotation stuff to go with it in an org that was lacking in pitching prospects.  There's a saying among minor league prospectors that there's no such thing as a pitching prospect.  Acquiring a guy such as Meyer was desperately needed and guys like Meyer aren't typically for sale.  Lest we forget, Span had his share of question marks at that time too and didn't exactly get off to a great start in Washington.    Given the Twins situation, you do this trade every time. 

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    We'll just disagree. And I'm ok with that.

     

    And no, your last paragraph does not logically follow from the theory.

    How many 6-9 pitchers have there been?  One of them is in the hall of fame.

     

    Again...if height has anything to do with it, we should be collecting them.

     

    But it most likely doesn't have anything to do with anything.

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    I think Meyer was (still is?) worth the gamble.  But it might be fair to say for a player like Span, they should have gotten another player maybe?

    And that's a fair argument but let us not forget that Span had his own issues going into the deal.

     

    He was a hitter who suffered a concussion and had played just 198 games the past two seasons. It worked out for the Nationals in the end but Denard was a somewhat risky player as well. He didn't play particularly well his first season in Washington, either.

     

    And Meyer... Well, he's a weird case. It looked like he might be one of the few who beat the odds and became a dominant tall pitcher. Just 12 months ago, he was dominating AAA to the point we were screaming "WHY ISN'T HE HERE YET?"

     

    And then he suddenly fell apart. At the same level he just dominated the previous season.

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    I liked the Meyer-Span trade at the time, for all the reasons previously posted. However, with his recent failings, I really question the Twins ability to develop power pitchers. It seems almost every power type guy in the system either gets hurt or stalls and starts getting worse. Berrios is probably the exception. But, I think the Twins need to look at how they coach, promote, and develop pitchers. Too many power arms seem to regress every year. Why??

    Edited by whydidnt
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    And that's a fair argument but let us not forget that Span had his own issues going into the deal.

     

    He was a hitter who suffered a concussion and had played just 198 games the past two seasons. It worked out for the Nationals in the end but Denard was a somewhat risky player as well. He didn't play particularly well his first season in Washington, either.

     

    And Meyer... Well, he's a weird case. It looked like he might be one of the few who beat the odds and became a dominant tall pitcher. Just 12 months ago, he was dominating AAA to the point we were screaming "WHY ISN'T HE HERE YET?"

     

    And then he suddenly fell apart. At the same level he just dominated the previous season.

    Span was a 3.4 WAR with the Nats his first year.  

    Edited by jimmer
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    Revisiting Tulo, is there any plan to do a "postmortem" on the Twins discussions with the Rockies?

     

    It was encouraging to hear we talked with Colorado, although the report seemed to imply talks were quite basic and limited.  Did the Twins walk away, and why?  Was it primarily Gibson, Sano, or the cash?  Did we counteroffer?  Did it even get to the point of "offers" or was it shut down earlier than that?

     

    I wasn't bothered by it fizzling out originally, because as Jeremy says, trades can take a while to develop, and I suspected the Rockies weren't actually that motivated to move him.  But it appears that wasn't the case.

     

    TR strikes me as the kind of guy who will listen to (or make) an offer and give a quick, firm response (which might explain his relative lack of significant deals).  This situation might have called for more give-and-take; even if an agreement wasn't readily apparent, a strong signal of interest and regular contact might have produced something.

     

    Here's a report of how it went down for Toronto:

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2015/07/28/timeline-of-how-troy-tulowitzki-ended-up-with-blue-jays.html

     

     

    November, 2014: Rumours of Tulowitzki being on the block at the GM meetings in Phoenix when first-year Rockies GM Jeff Bridich said his “eyes and ears were open” to all possibilities.

    Winter, 2014: Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos says the idea of a trade highlighted by Tulowitzki and Jose Reyes was first floated over the winter.

    May, 2015: Jays talk with Rockies again about Tulowitzki.

    July: Talks between Jays and Rockies quietly heat up again.

    Just curious how it played out for the Twins.  Were the Twins just not interested at any reasonable price, or did we misread the Rockies, etc.?

    Edited by spycake
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    Revisiting Tulo, is there any plan to do a "postmortem" on the Twins discussions with the Rockies?

     

    It was encouraging to hear we talked with Colorado, although the report seemed to imply talks were quite basic and limited.  Did the Twins walk away, and why?  Was it primarily Gibson, Sano, or the cash?  Did we counteroffer?  Did it even get to the point of "offers" or was it shut down earlier than that?

     

    I wasn't bothered by it fizzling out originally, because as Jeremy says, trades can take a while to develop, and I suspected the Rockies weren't actually that motivated to move him.  But it appears that wasn't the case.

     

    TR strikes me as the kind of guy who will listen to (or make) an offer and give a quick, firm response (which might explain his relative lack of significant deals).  This situation might have called for more give-and-take; even if an agreement wasn't readily apparent, a strong signal of interest and regular contact might have produced something.

     

    Here's a report of how it went down for Toronto:

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2015/07/28/timeline-of-how-troy-tulowitzki-ended-up-with-blue-jays.html

    Just curious how it played out for the Twins.  Were the Twins just not interested at any reasonable price, or did we misread the Rockies, etc.?

     

     

    I think a combination of a lot of these things, as well as we were very hesitant to take on his contract.  Guessing as a matter of curiosity we talked Tulo, but were never serious.

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    I think it's pretty obvious the Twins just don't swim at that end of the pool.  

     

    Acquiring a player of Tulowitski's stature, and paycheck, is not within the realm of what's considered possible, regardless if it's a good idea or not.

     

    600 post thread, and fun to talk about, but my gut instinct is not one single post--including the original post--is from someone who considered this a realistic possibility.  

     

    Because deep down, we all know the Twins don't consider it a realistic possibility.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    Yeah, I know it wasn't realistic.  But that's what made Jeremy's report so surprising in the first place.  Just saying I'd be interested in a follow-up from him, especially if he could clarify some of his original questions and speculation:

     

     

     

    I don’t know who made the first offer

    Where do negotiations go from here?

    Would the Twins have interest in acquiring other pieces from the Rockies?

     

     

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    If Reyes for Tulo has been bandied about for almost a year, doesn't that just reinforce the idea that Colorado had some misplaced infatuation with Reyes?

    No, sorry that timeline was just a brief summary.  The context is that Toronto was trying to move Reyes the whole time, but Colorado (and other potential Toronto trade partners) were resisting.

     

    Last week, Colorado relented, probably largely as an admission that they would have to eat some cash anyway.  (As Philly did in the Hamels deal too.)

    Edited by spycake
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    You kind of wonder if a market niche exists where you can get quality players from rebuilding/poor teams on shorter deals.  If I was the GM and concerned "with years, not dollars", this would be an avenue to explore.

     

    For example, Shields received 4/80 a few months ago.  He is still a pretty good player and it sounds like he would have been available with the Padres taking back salary.  Mark Buehrle is another example, one year into his contract with Miami.

     

    If the Rockies ate 30% of Tulo's contract, 5/70 seems like a significant discount to what he would have received as a free agent.  It doesn't mean it is a good deal that does not have risk.  But in an world where Sandoval or Hanley Ramirez makes significantly more than that it would seem a decent place to look.  Now of course you give something up in the form of players or prospects, but the players that move tend to be of less quality than everyone thinks originally.

     

    Frankly, I am surprised we have not done more of these deals. 

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    No, sorry that timeline was just a brief summary.  The context is that Toronto was trying to move Reyes the whole time, but Colorado (and other potential Toronto trade partners) were resisting.

     

    Last week, Colorado relented, probably largely as an admission that they would have to eat some cash anyway.  (As Philly did in the Hamels deal too.)

    Boy,you are just committed to the belief that theRockies didn't want Reyes. I think reality really disagrees with that. I have no good explanation (incompetence), but it looks pretty clear.

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    Boy,you are just committed to the belief that theRockies didn't want Reyes. I think reality really disagrees with that. I have no good explanation (incompetence), but it looks pretty clear.

    It's not just my belief, it's been widely reported:

     

    http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/troy-tulowitzki-trade-toronto-blue-jays-colorado-rockies-ken-rosenthal-072815?vid=492340291747

     

     

     

    Anthopoulos first asked the Rockies about Tulowitzki during the winter, but the Rockies would not take back shortstop Jose Reyes as part of the return.

    So, Anthopoulos tried again in May. No change. Then again in July. Some movement. At the All-Star break, more movement.

    And then, late Monday night, bingo.

     

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    You kind of wonder if a market niche exists where you can get quality players from rebuilding/poor teams on shorter deals.  If I was the GM and concerned "with years, not dollars", this would be an avenue to explore.

     

    For example, Shields received 4/80 a few months ago.  He is still a pretty good player and it sounds like he would have been available with the Padres taking back salary.  Mark Buehrle is another example, one year into his contract with Miami.

    Yeah, these kind of contracts aren't really onerous.  (Although I don't think the Padres are really at giveaway stage with Shields yet, and his and Buerhle's contracts were backloaded.)  These are still good players and likely around market deals.

     

    Shin Soo Choo, Robinson Cano, etc. -- THOSE are the onerous contracts.  Of course, those deals don't get moved at all.

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    This is why I think the Twins had a legit shot at Tulowitzki if they wanted it. If Reyes really was an anchor in the deal, what could we have gotten him for? Of course, we'll never know what conversations, if any, were really held. But it sure seems like he could have been had without mortgaging the future. 

     

    Funny, to me it looks like the Jays gave up more for abut 10 David Price starts, and no way those are more valuable than Tulowitzki, are they?

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    From today's chat with Dave Cameron:

     

    Comment From David
    What trade do you think was the biggest overpay or underpay?

    Dave Cameron: Rob Kaminsky for Brandon Moss seemed like a high price for STL to pay for a platoon guy with a bad hip having a mediocre season. And the Tulo deal was probably the cheapest acquisition of a high-level player we’ve seen at the deadline in a while.

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