Planning for the Future Behind the Plate

You know, I keep hearing people say "we have other needs" beyond catcher, and I understand that, but for the life of me, I can't think of one more pressing in the here and now.  One injury prone .200 - .210 hitting catcher on the entire 40 man?  And no one in the near future of the organization ready to move up?  Picture only having one of any other position, much less a position you can't just slot someone into in an emergency; they kind of have to be a catcher, you know?  What ever direction they go, defense first or offense, framer or good arm, etc., they better do it PDQ, or the league will make the decision for them by snarfing up everyone worth anything.  We have at least some depth at every other position on the field; this may very well not be our only need, but it is the most pressing at the moment.  

I agree with Mark G. I don't get the "other needs" mantra either. Jeffers goes down and there is no one. Go get Contreras.

What are our real options - Contreras sounds good, but if not do we resign Sanchez or Leon?  What will the larger bases do to Jeffers ability to control the run game?  His 674 career OPS is 88 OPS+.  That is pretty weak.   I see Tim Laudner as the third comp for him on BR Behind Danny Jansen and Carson Kelly (who are they?) at age 25 and Taylor Teagarden career stats.  Not great company.  He has 1.9 WAR for three years.

Sandy Leon is the most affordable and got us a -0.5WAR last year with an OPS+ of 48!  And a total of 1.2WAR for 11 years.  Not him.

Gary Sanchez 0.9 WAR last year. OPS+ of 89 - he is not the answer either. 

Rortvedt in the minors had a 218/311/394 slash line for three minor league teams in 22 - we don't need him back either. 

Time to be creative.  

Jeffers may be able to frame, but he is a below average catchers and hitter.  Catcher has to be a priority and will have to over pay and maybe give up a lot for 2 decent catchers, instead of juggling each year.  Unless some of the low level catchers come out of nowhere,  the catching depth is bad at major league level and that us on management 

In many articles, catcher is ranked as the most important defensive position. Many articles say SS is the most important defensive position. Most agree that it is one or the other. Let me ask two questions: 1) who are the Twins catchers for 2023? 2) who are the Twins shortstops for 2023? Hmmmmmmmmm. We may be in for a long year in 2023. I wish the Twins would stop this nonsense which we fans endure every off season, and just sign a smart, great fielding catcher long term and a great SS long term.

I still don't understand why people want catchers to be this huge hitting machine when they need to be able to play DEFENSE. They need to be able to call a game, throw baserunners out, and block pitches in the dirt. Yes, pitch framing is nice especially if it helps us, but that shouldn't be the "go to" metric we look at for catchers. And if the catcher has a bat, that is a positive for us. As of right now Jeffers is our best option unless we chase a catcher that can field phenomenally and hit well. For a catcher, I will take a below average hitter if their defense can save us over the course of a season. 

I don't know what to say that I haven't already said  ...

We need strength at catcher , pitching , shortstop and center field  ...

Catcher , below average for sometime and no depth , we should have picked up a good defensive catcher at deadline but the smartest FO in the room depleted our prospects on injury prone pitching again ( looked good on paper ) ...

Pitching , able to be competitive   and win games during the season  but not post season playoffs games ...

Shortstop  , most likely gone but replacements prospects available if they can stick at the position  ...

Centerfield , one of the best defenders when healthy  ...

Jansen and Murphy may be available and it is possible to sign Vasquez.

So, I realize he played more 1b than C this season at Saint Paul, so more than likely he is not a defensive whiz.....but Chris Williams hit well with the Saints this season and is rostered as a catcher.  Was his season just a mirage, or is he a potential consideration?

I was in the camp of moving Jeffers instead of Garver & Rortvedt and pick up a cheaper #2. Jeffer's trade value was very attractive & only saw him as a #2 catcher. Garver if he stayed & continued his regiment, he would have been healthier. I still like Rortvedt as a very good defensive catcher that can be taught to hit. I'd like to have him back. Could he be competent #2 catcher '23? I'd still like him in AAA to learn hitting.

Now Jeffer's stock has deeply fallen & will soon be very low if we don't trade him soon. Contreras is an offensive catcher which has something to be desired defensively & comes w/ a declined QO. If his price comes down & he's around I'd pick him up. I'd like picking up Murphy (OAK) or Jansen (TOR) via trade. Either way I'd pick Narvaez as my 2nd catcher.

1st catcher ? (not Jeffers); 2nd catcher Narvaez; 3rd catcher Rortvedt; '26 Noah Cardenas

15 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

I was in the camp of moving Jeffers instead of Garver & Rortvedt and pick up a cheaper #2. Jeffer's trade value was very attractive & only saw him as a #2 catcher. Garver if he stayed & continued his regiment, he would have been healthier. I still like Rortvedt as a very good defensive catcher that can be taught to hit. I'd like to have him back. Could he be competent #2 catcher '23? I'd still like him in AAA to learn hitting.

Now Jeffer's stock has deeply fallen & will soon be very low if we don't trade him soon. Contreras is an offensive catcher which has something to be desired defensively & comes w/ a declined QO. If his price comes down & he's around I'd pick him up. I'd like picking up Murphy (OAK) or Jansen (TOR) via trade. Either way I'd pick Narvaez as my 2nd catcher.

1st catcher ? (not Jeffers); 2nd catcher Narvaez; 3rd catcher Rortvedt; '26 Noah Cardenas

 

I'm sorry, but what indicators are there that Garver would have been healthier if he had stayed a Twin? We were one of the most injured teams in baseball last season. I was one of the biggest Rortvedt backers there was, but there's very little to suggest that he can hit at the MLB level, especially considering his minor league track record and the fact that he turns 25 this year. The power potential we were hoping for has never materialized (he's slugged over .400 exactly once in his career at any level), he doesn't make tons of contact, he doesn't make lots of hard contact, and his best stint as a hitter was 2021 in Saint Paul over 34 games...which might be small sample size rearing it's very ugly head.

I really don't understand the drive people have to dump Jeffers. He works well with pitchers, calling a good game and getting them extra strikes. Even if pitch framing goes away with robo-strike zone, that means Jeffers can (and almost certainly will) focus more on blocking the plate and potentially throwing. I'm not sure why people think that when pitch-framing goes away he'll suddenly be useless back there. Jeffers pounds lefties, which is certainly something this Twins team needs (Rortvedt doesn't hit anyone). he's also still under team control and pretty cheap.

I'm certainly interested in Narvaez, but as a partner for Jeffers.

19 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

I'm sorry, but what indicators are there that Garver would have been healthier if he had stayed a Twin? We were one of the most injured teams in baseball last season. I was one of the biggest Rortvedt backers there was, but there's very little to suggest that he can hit at the MLB level, especially considering his minor league track record and the fact that he turns 25 this year. The power potential we were hoping for has never materialized (he's slugged over .400 exactly once in his career at any level), he doesn't make tons of contact, he doesn't make lots of hard contact, and his best stint as a hitter was 2021 in Saint Paul over 34 games...which might be small sample size rearing it's very ugly head.

I really don't understand the drive people have to dump Jeffers. He works well with pitchers, calling a good game and getting them extra strikes. Even if pitch framing goes away with robo-strike zone, that means Jeffers can (and almost certainly will) focus more on blocking the plate and potentially throwing. I'm not sure why people think that when pitch-framing goes away he'll suddenly be useless back there. Jeffers pounds lefties, which is certainly something this Twins team needs (Rortvedt doesn't hit anyone). he's also still under team control and pretty cheap.

I'm certainly interested in Narvaez, but as a partner for Jeffers.

 

All of this x 2. 

Jeffers isn't terrible, he's just bad against the running game and doesn't hit RH very well. But you don't dump a guy like that, you play him against lefties to rest your starting catcher. Oh, and you get a catcher to play against righties. 

But when shopping for catchers you have to balance a bunch of stuff in ways you don't for other positions. Catching beats the heck out of a body, meaning that these guys can't play their position 140 games a year, and that even when resting they are often diminished at the plate, and they get hurt at crazy rates.  So while you can ty to build around a catcher, you really do need a couple of them to anticipate the inevitable DL trips and leave room for their offensive sag. With that in mind I'd try to grow my own Mauers whenever possible, but while working on that I'd pick up a lot of glove-first platoon guys since they're cheaper and more available. We just need a guy that can hold his own against RH pitching and catch a good game and hopefully stay on the field for 100-115 games a year.

1 hour ago, jmlease1 said:

I'm sorry, but what indicators are there that Garver would have been healthier if he had stayed a Twin? We were one of the most injured teams in baseball last season. I was one of the biggest Rortvedt backers there was, but there's very little to suggest that he can hit at the MLB level, especially considering his minor league track record and the fact that he turns 25 this year. The power potential we were hoping for has never materialized (he's slugged over .400 exactly once in his career at any level), he doesn't make tons of contact, he doesn't make lots of hard contact, and his best stint as a hitter was 2021 in Saint Paul over 34 games...which might be small sample size rearing it's very ugly head.

For example if have a regiment of taking my colesterol medicine, my colesterol level is great if I leave that regiment my levels are lousy. Under the same premise if Garver has a regiment of rest he does great if he leaves that regiment, he's lousy & hurt. 

The same can go for Cruz, Odorizzi & Rogers, when they were with the Twins & follow a certain regiment of rest they did great after they left here & their regiment they did lousy.

Yes when Rortvedt started a new level, his batting left a lot to be desired but when he settled in a level his batting OBP & OPS were pretty darn good for a catcher. When thrusted into MLB, his hitting as you can imagine was terrible but when he was sent down to AAA, his numbers were respectable. IMO if he had remain in MN having more advanced hitting technics & more acclimated to MLB his his hitting would continue to climb until he'd be respectable hitter.

Rortvedt will always be a fantastic defensive catcher but the upheaval of him moving to a different organization has devasted his hitting. My hope we could bring him back & try recoup the damage.

2 hours ago, Althebum82 said:

So, I realize he played more 1b than C this season at Saint Paul, so more than likely he is not a defensive whiz.....but Chris Williams hit well with the Saints this season and is rostered as a catcher.  Was his season just a mirage, or is he a potential consideration?

Chris Williams season number are good but most on that is from AA. His Saints slash line is .192/.290/.424 .714 so pretty mediocre. 

1 hour ago, jmlease1 said:

I'm sorry, but what indicators are there that Garver would have been healthier if he had stayed a Twin? We were one of the most injured teams in baseball last season. I was one of the biggest Rortvedt backers there was, but there's very little to suggest that he can hit at the MLB level, especially considering his minor league track record and the fact that he turns 25 this year. The power potential we were hoping for has never materialized (he's slugged over .400 exactly once in his career at any level), he doesn't make tons of contact, he doesn't make lots of hard contact, and his best stint as a hitter was 2021 in Saint Paul over 34 games...which might be small sample size rearing it's very ugly head.

I really don't understand the drive people have to dump Jeffers. He works well with pitchers, calling a good game and getting them extra strikes. Even if pitch framing goes away with robo-strike zone, that means Jeffers can (and almost certainly will) focus more on blocking the plate and potentially throwing. I'm not sure why people think that when pitch-framing goes away he'll suddenly be useless back there. Jeffers pounds lefties, which is certainly something this Twins team needs (Rortvedt doesn't hit anyone). he's also still under team control and pretty cheap.

I'm certainly interested in Narvaez, but as a partner for Jeffers.

 

I'm in this boat. Jeffers has a decent chance to be a good catcher. I hope they keep him around for awhile yet. I'm not sold on him being a #1 catcher though. Narvaez had an OPS+ 71 in 2022 and OPS+ 101 in 2021. I get the lefty/righty platoon. But there should be a better option then that. Boras Corp usually drags things out till Feb so it's likely the better FA catchers will be locked up before the Twins have an answer on Correa. 

32 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

For example if have a regiment of taking my colesterol medicine, my colesterol level is great if I leave that regiment my levels are lousy. Under the same premise if Garver has a regiment of rest he does great if he leaves that regiment, he's lousy & hurt. 

The same can go for Cruz, Odorizzi & Rogers, when they were with the Twins & follow a certain regiment of rest they did great after they left here & their regiment they did lousy.

Yes when Rortvedt started a new level, his batting left a lot to be desired but when he settled in a level his batting OBP & OPS were pretty darn good for a catcher. When thrusted into MLB, his hitting as you can imagine was terrible but when he was sent down to AAA, his numbers were respectable. IMO if he had remain in MN having more advanced hitting technics & more acclimated to MLB his his hitting would continue to climb until he'd be respectable hitter.

Rortvedt will always be a fantastic defensive catcher but the upheaval of him moving to a different organization has devasted his hitting. My hope we could bring him back & try recoup the damage.

In theory this is true, but assumes that the new teams immediately changed directions and/or the player stopped doing the things that were making them successful and healthy, and I think that's an assumption that you simply can't make.

Beyond that, Garver had injury problems with the Twins before getting traded, Odorizzi's last season with the Twins was wrecked by injury, and Taylor Rogers missed a huge chunk of time in his last season with the Twins as well. (and with Cruz, isn't it just more likely that Father Time finally caught up with him?) So I don't think these are great examples for how a return to TwinsLand will improve performance and/or health.

If Rortvedt were a minor-league FA would I try to sign him as AAA depth? Sure, because he's a talented defender even if he can't hit and as a lefty hitter maybe they could find something to unlock still, however unlikely, but as a minor league depth guy why not have the kid from WI? But it's hard to have much confidence that he's going to have a big bounce back as a hitter post-injury when he's never hit before.

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Half of the playoff teams also have terrible catchers. It's not a pressing need because most of the league is in the same boat.

I'm not sure, here, but are you telling me that half the playoff teams have one catcher?  One catcher on their playoff roster?  Because that is what we have right now.  Even if we had an incredibly terrible catcher along side Jeffers, at least we would have more than one.  Right now we have one.  I may be overlooking something here, but did I mention we have only one?  Because right now, we have one.  I am pretty sure all I said was I wanted more than one, and I am hoping they don't wait until the better ones are gone before we try to grab one.  As the song goes, "one is the loneliest number.  Two can be as bad as one, it's the loneliest number since the number one."  Right now, I would settle for as bad as one, no matter who is actually number two.  I say this with all due respect, but, yeah, it's a pretty pressing need, no matter who we share the boat with.  

2 hours ago, Mark G said:

I'm not sure, here, but are you telling me that half the playoff teams have one catcher?  One catcher on their playoff roster?  Because that is what we have right now.  Even if we had an incredibly terrible catcher along side Jeffers, at least we would have more than one.  Right now we have one.  I may be overlooking something here, but did I mention we have only one?  Because right now, we have one.  I am pretty sure all I said was I wanted more than one, and I am hoping they don't wait until the better ones are gone before we try to grab one.  As the song goes, "one is the loneliest number.  Two can be as bad as one, it's the loneliest number since the number one."  Right now, I would settle for as bad as one, no matter who is actually number two.  I say this with all due respect, but, yeah, it's a pretty pressing need, no matter who we share the boat with.  

There's no question that getting another catcher is a need, but there are a fair number of "good defense, no hit" catchers out there than can be had for relatively low cost and won't vanish on Day 1 of FA. There's a much smaller number of complete catchers than add offensive value and quality defense, on any team. It has to be addressed, but it's less pressing than say, SS where our in-house options are: Polanco (who isn't a SS any longer), Gordon (who the Twins have never seen as a SS in an MLB capacity), Lewis (who won't be ready until mid-season at the very earliest, and possibly not at all because injury), Martin (never played above AA and has questions about his ability to field the position), and Lee (just barely arrived in the organization and has only a handful of ABs at AA).

At least with a healthy Jeffers we have a catcher who most non-Twins fans would consider a starting quality catcher. I think the reason Jeffers gets bashed so much is the curse of familiarity: we see his Mendoza line every day. Fans of other teams would look at his stats and go "at least your guy hits the occasional dinger!"

I don’t understand what the Twins plans are for the future at Catcher. There isn’t a single prospect at the position in our system that looks like more than a backup, and there isn’t any future help either. Jeffers will be a FA eventually, and the Twins should’ve drafted a Catcher somewhere in the draft this year. What did they do? Get 5 middle-infielders instead. Please fix the position, and fix it soon.

5 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Half of the playoff teams also have terrible catchers. It's not a pressing need because most of the league is in the same boat.

Sorry nick I have to disagree that  it's not a pressing need  ...

Maldonado is a very good defensive catcher  ...

Realmato is said to be the best catcher in both leagues  ...

What do they have in common ,,,

They are both in the world series  and are defensive leaders ...

Catcher is a pressing need and jeffers is not a number 1 catcher...

A team needs strong defense from catcher , shortstop and centerfield for these positions and quality pitching would help too ...

6 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Half of the playoff teams also have terrible catchers.

Do you mean at the plate with a bat or behind it with a glove? I guess Tampa Bay had some issues at the catching position, but Houston, Philadelphia, San Diego, NYY, Seattle, Atlanta, LAD, Toronto, Cleveland, and St. Louis were all pretty happy with their catchers. The Mets have a young pup on the rise. The Guardians and Cardinals put a high premium on the defensive side as does Houston. I wouldn't say that the Twins catchers compare favorably to the playoff teams sets of backstops. I do understand that there is a shortage of good catchers across baseball and that the depth is thin for many teams. 

Short of trading for a catcher, or ponying up for Contreras (and really, why would he come here?), the options are just....plain....bleak.

12 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

There's no question that getting another catcher is a need, but there are a fair number of "good defense, no hit" catchers out there than can be had for relatively low cost and won't vanish on Day 1 of FA. There's a much smaller number of complete catchers than add offensive value and quality defense, on any team. It has to be addressed, but it's less pressing than say, SS where our in-house options are: Polanco (who isn't a SS any longer), Gordon (who the Twins have never seen as a SS in an MLB capacity), Lewis (who won't be ready until mid-season at the very earliest, and possibly not at all because injury), Martin (never played above AA and has questions about his ability to field the position), and Lee (just barely arrived in the organization and has only a handful of ABs at AA).

At least with a healthy Jeffers we have a catcher who most non-Twins fans would consider a starting quality catcher. I think the reason Jeffers gets bashed so much is the curse of familiarity: we see his Mendoza line every day. Fans of other teams would look at his stats and go "at least your guy hits the occasional dinger!"

The key word in the entire post here was options.  Options.  Plural.  We have options at every position in the field except catcher, arguably the most important position for no other reason than it is exclusive.  Along with the other players you mentioned, you could move Urshella to short and slot in Miranda at 3rd.  Arraez has played 3 different infield positions.  All our outfielders could man any of the spots for a brief time if necessary.  I could go on, but don't need to.  Two positions on the diamond are not interchangeable or you could move a player to in a pinch if absolutely necessary; pitcher and catcher.  From the get go I have been basing my thought process on what our 40 man roster contains, not on what we would call up from the minors and have to move the 40 man around.  Last I saw we had 47 players on the 40 man, but some are current free agents and others we expect to not bring back as well.  The article said it would probably end up being about 39 on the roster before adding and moving others as well.  But as of today, none of the other 38 projected to be left standing could be put behind the plate; hence my thought process that this is the single most pressing position to look at in the beginning of the off season; by no means the only position, but the most pressing.  And I would prefer not waiting until low cost defense first catchers are all that are left.  Whether it be through FA or trade, get out ahead of this, or we relive '22 indefinitely.  I would even entertain bringing back Sanchez if all else failed, but I would like to think we could do better, which we won't if we wait too long.  I think our disagreement might simply stem from the concept of pressing vs. important.  Other positions may very well be more important in the long run, but I believe this position is the most pressing currently, as there are not many quality guys available and there will be multiple buyers.  Doesn't mean we can't look at other positions at the same time, but I feel there is more time with other positions because, as I said, there are options at the other positions, even if they are not necessarily the most desirable options.  One catcher is an option, not options.  And now that I have worn out my welcome, I will say thanks for the chat.  ?

On 11/4/2022 at 9:33 AM, mac098 said:

I still don't understand why people want catchers to be this huge hitting machine when they need to be able to play DEFENSE.

Nobody is asking for a "hitting machine". We want a guy who can bat .240 and hit 13 homers. Is that too much to ask?