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  • Twins Daily’s Instant Draft Reaction: WTF?


    John  Bonnes

    We set a record for page views yesterday, approaching 100,000. A lot of that was on our Day 1 Draft Day thread. And starting at about the 500th comment or so, the reaction could be summarized in three letters: W. T. F.

    To the community’s credit, that was not the thought process immediately, when the Twins surprised everyone by picking prep shortstop Royce Lewis first overall. That’s because a good chunk of the wonks on this site understand there is a strategy that can accompany just such a pick, one which I explained in a series of tweets, starting with this one, yesterday afternoon. You can click through, but I’ll give the gist…

    Twins Video

    Saving money on the first overall pick is a common strategy for MLB teams and has been used with much success. Drafting Lewis, who was considered along with Kyle Wright and Brendan McKay, to be a half step below Hunter Greene in terms of talent, could essentially give the Twins extra quality in some of their following picks. Again, click on the tweet for the details.

    So Lewis was the surprise pick at #1, but we heard reports that he was the pick because he gave the Twins a discount which they could use to essentially accumulate higher picks later in the draft. That’s a solid strategy; additional quality picks helps both with risk mitigation and with higher upside. And it costs nothing but a little negotiation.

    Plus, selfishly, it makes the rest of the night that much more fun. The Twins had two more picks last night, the 35th and 37th picks and lots of leftover money. Signing Lewis “below slot” gave them the opportunity to sign some higher ranked players who seemed to “tumble” down the draft board, not because there was anything wrong with them, but because they wanted more money than teams above the Twins in the draft (but below them in leftover money) could offer.

    What’s more, the most obvious of those players was a high school pitcher from Burnsville. Sam Carlson was projected to be a mid-first round pick. He’s a pitcher. He’s a hometown boy. And the fact that he was available at pick 35 made it seem like the Twins and he had conspired to allow him to fall into the Twins lap.

    Except that isn’t what happened.

    The Twins picked a college outfielder, Brent Rooker at 35. They picked a prep (Canadian) pitcher, Landon Leach, at 37. Both are legitimate top 100 prospects, but neither was a top 20 or even perceived to be a top 30 pick. In fact, one could reasonably project that both of them could also sign “under slot.” Carlson ended up going 55th to the Mariners who don’t seem to have the money to sign him.

    So WTF happened?

    We won’t find out all the signing amounts for several days, but I’ll float some scenarios, and you can add your own in the comment below.

    1. Lewis didn’t sign for less than slot. I think that it’s already been reported that he did, but these moves make a lot more sense if Lewis' agent, Scott Boras, didn’t let Lewis sign for less than slot, or something happened that the Twins weren’t sure they had that extra money.

    2. The Twins got sniped before #35. Whoever the Twins targeted with the 35th pick, was taken before they got their pick. Which would mean that either the player’s agent was incompetent, or the Twins didn’t get word to the player to make sure teams knew they needed to pass, or another team called their bluff or figured out a way to get their own leftover money.

    3. A Carlson deal fell through. But they why do the Mariners take him at #55? They have to know they can sign him if they're going to use their second round pick on him, right?

    4. The Twins have no intention of using their whole $14M draft budget. They saved money to save money. This just seems crazy. It would be a complete betrayal.

    5. They're going to use the money on Day 2. OK, but now the top picks are already done. (Late add: track the Day 2 moves on Twins Daily's Day 2 Thread!)

    We are all left scratching our heads. Perhaps we'll get more information that clarifies what we witnessed. Or maybe this is the mess it appears to be.

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    I think they should have the $ to get Enlow to sign. Lewis is around $1MIL under per Doogie. Rooker might save some $, Leach should be under-slot (if he's not I have a big mark against Falvey and Levine in their first draft). I'd bet they have around $3MIL to throw at him.

     

    There may not be enough money in the entire pool to get a Louisiana kid who grew up wanting to play for LSU to sign.

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    Pretty sure the mods asked us yesterday to allow people to both praise and criticize the draft, since this is a site to talk about the Twins. And, these are threads to discuss the draft.

     

    I'm not saying you shouldn't criticize it, I'm just pointing out that you aren't actually giving Falvey a chance to show results. If you think that's fair, by all means, continue to do so.

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    I'm not saying you shouldn't criticize it, I'm just pointing out that you aren't actually giving Falvey a chance to show results. If you think that's fair, by all means, continue to do so.

    Stop it now. Keep the discussion to the draft and not what Mike thinks about it. You can disagree with him, but don't make it about him.

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    I looked again, that 2012 draft was really good. Would be awesome if they could repeat it.

     

    An emerging up the middle stud (Buxton), a 2-3 starter (Berrios), their two competent setup men (Duffey, Rogers), and three relief prospects that may make it after recovering injuries - Melotakis, Bard, Chargois.

     

    This should be the model for what they are trying to do this year.

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    I looked again, that 2012 draft was really good. Would be awesome if they could repeat it.

     

    An emerging up the middle stud (Buxton), a 2-3 starter (Berrios), their two competent setup men (Duffey, Rogers), and three relief prospects that may make it after recovering injuries - Melotakis, Bard, Chargois.

     

    This should be the model for what they are trying to do this year.

     

    Agreed. If they get that, I'll be thrilled.

     

    I have my doubts right now, but it's certainly possible. I vastly preferred Wright or Gore Greene or even McKay there. They NEED pitching. There were two very good to great college guys sitting there, and two awesome HS guys. That's the route I would have taken.

    Edited by Mike Sixel
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    Just curious... how big of reach was Noah Syndergaard at 38 in 2010?  

     

    He was rated a lot higher than Leach... Had a LOT of helium in that draft and was considered one of the most projectable arms. Toronto picked him early enough to get him out of his college commitment.

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    There may not be enough money in the entire pool to get a Louisiana kid who grew up wanting to play for LSU to sign.

     

    That could be true. Have you read that's his preference anywhere? (I've been looking but haven't seen that, usually that is well known)

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    Why would you have doubts right now? Based on what?

     

    Buxton was considered 1 or 2, Lewis was number 5 by pretty much everyone. Lewis doesn't have much of an arm, from what I read, Buxton had all 5 tools. I don't doubt he'll be a top prospect at all. But, it's not likely he'll be as great defensively as Buxton, so he'll have to hit like a real baseball player. That seems "probable" at this point, if that can be said of any HS player. 

     

    I have my doubts about any pitcher being good, unless he's universally a top 20 talent. That's just the odds. Obviously, I don't scout these guys, so I can only go off what I read. What I read doesn't scream "no doubt" on this guy.

     

    I have used the word skeptical over and over, not failure. I have also said "I have my doubts", not that I'm certain of anything. 

     

    Overall, it's not what I would have done, nor does it seem to make sense to many here.

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    and three relief prospects that may make it after recovering injuries - Melotakis, Bard, Chargois.

    But on the bullpen threads, you keep dismissing Bard (and Melo) as indistinguishable from Tepesch, Wilk, Rucinski, Wimmers, etc....

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    Looking at this story... I was in a rush to post last night so I wish I added a paragraph just before the theories. It would have clarified that I'm not disappointed that the Twins didn't get Carlson. I don't have any strong feelings about him either way.

     

    I'm disappointed that the Twins didn't get anyone "over slot". The $1M+ they saved on Lewis didn't go to anyone ranked in the top 40 of the draft. Both 35 and 37 are good enough picks, but both went (at best) about where you would expect them to go. So now the Twins are going into Day 2 with $1M+ extra dollars that is increasingly harder to spend and with 75 players off the board. 

     

    Anyway, I just wanted to clarify: this isn't about Carlson, at least not for me. 

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    I could be seriously wrong here, but I work with a guy that is a life long Indians fan and he didn't seem surprised at all with these types of moves in the draft. 

     

    Seems as if Falvine is under the model of grabbing the athletic hitters early and throwing darts at the board later for pitching. Seemed to build a decent club in Cleveland. 

     

    He also pointed out that the Indians stockpiled SS prospects as well. This also explains quite a bit about the strategy here. These are high value objects for trades and they can also be moved to different parts of the field if their hit tool is that promising. 

     

    I am not saying I am 100% sold, I am actually more skeptical than most, but I will give these guys the benefit of the doubt after talking to my colleague. Seems there is a track record here

    Edited by MangLitch
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    So, my assumption was that Lewis and McKay were being played off of each other for the savings and the Twins went with Lewis. But just a few minutes after we drafted Lewis, Jon Heyman - a mouthpiece for Boras - said the Twins won't be saving money on the pick since he's the best position player since Bryant. So maybe the answer is Boras is screwing the Twins.  "You told us you'd consider taking 6m!" "Yes, and now we're down considering it and we'll sign for 6.7m." 

     

    I dunno. That at least makes sense. 

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    Looking at this story... I was in a rush to post last night so I wish I added a paragraph just before the theories. It would have clarified that I'm not disappointed that the Twins didn't get Carlson. I don't have any strong feelings about him either way.

     

    I'm disappointed that the Twins didn't get anyone "over slot". The $1M+ they saved on Lewis didn't go to anyone ranked in the top 40 of the draft. Both 35 and 37 are good enough picks, but both went (at best) about where you would expect them to go. So now the Twins are going into Day 2 with $1M+ extra dollars that is increasingly harder to spend and with 75 players off the board. 

     

    Anyway, I just wanted to clarify: this isn't about Carlson, at least not for me. 

    Yeah, my problem is that they didn't reach with the 35/37 picks, not that they didn't draft any single guy.

     

    Because my knowledge of any single guy is so limited that I'm just making **** up as I go along.

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    Buxton was considered 1 or 2, Lewis was number 5 by pretty much everyone. Lewis doesn't have much of an arm, from what I read, Buxton had all 5 tools. I don't doubt he'll be a top prospect at all. But, it's not likely he'll be as great defensively as Buxton, so he'll have to hit like a real baseball player. That seems "probable" at this point, if that can be said of any HS player. 

     

    I have my doubts about any pitcher being good, unless he's universally a top 20 talent. That's just the odds. Obviously, I don't scout these guys, so I can only go off what I read. What I read doesn't scream "no doubt" on this guy.

     

    I have used the word skeptical over and over, not failure. I have also said "I have my doubts", not that I'm certain of anything. 

     

    Overall, it's not what I would have done, nor does it seem to make sense to many here.

     

    Berrios was ranked about 50 going into that draft. Obviously not 100, but in reality that is a small difference in probability. Some of the other relievers drafted were in the back of the top 100, but the two that actually popped weren't in top 100.

     

    Do agree that it will come down mostly to Buxton vs Lewis. But Buxton, when drafted was almost all tools, lots of concern about how long it will take the bat to come around (which have been somewhat vindicated).

     

     

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    But on the bullpen threads, you keep dismissing Bard (and Melo) as indistinguishable from Tepesch, Wilk, Rucinski, Wimmers, etc....

     

    I never said Bard and Melo were the level of the interchangeable long men, just that cycling them in now would be little different from what they have. But perhaps worth the shot.

     

    But either way, they are the 7th and 8th guys from the class that might contribute, which is pretty much desserts at that point.

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    Looking at this story... I was in a rush to post last night so I wish I added a paragraph just before the theories. It would have clarified that I'm not disappointed that the Twins didn't get Carlson. I don't have any strong feelings about him either way.

     

    I'm disappointed that the Twins didn't get anyone "over slot". The $1M+ they saved on Lewis didn't go to anyone ranked in the top 40 of the draft. Both 35 and 37 are good enough picks, but both went (at best) about where you would expect them to go. So now the Twins are going into Day 2 with $1M+ extra dollars that is increasingly harder to spend and with 75 players off the board. 

     

    Anyway, I just wanted to clarify: this isn't about Carlson, at least not for me. 

     

    Couldn't agree more. It was quite frustrating last night reading Radcliffe's quote right after the Lewis pick saying they're using the savings to "go big" at 35/37... And Jeremy Nygaard's source texting him "Boom. Just wait" after the Lewis pick too.

     

    It leads me to believe that another team drafted the player they wanted, and made adjustments on the fly to change their strategy again. So here we are, with $1+ MM to spend on less-touted players the rest of the draft.  

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    So, my assumption was that Lewis and McKay were being played off of each other for the savings and the Twins went with Lewis. But just a few minutes after we drafted Lewis, Jon Heyman - a mouthpiece for Boras - said the Twins won't be saving money on the pick since he's the best position player since Bryant. So maybe the answer is Boras is screwing the Twins.  "You told us you'd consider taking 6m!" "Yes, and now we're down considering it and we'll sign for 6.7m." 

     

    I dunno. That at least makes sense. 

     

    I just struggle to believe that Boras would do that.  While he is always looking out for his players, it would be a pretty big hit to him to essentially cause the Twins to never deal with him again as they wouldn't be able to trust anything he says. 

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    So it's the same guys who failed in the past with one approach and now take a different approach but are still the same guys so are automatically doomed to failure because they failed in the past with a different strategy under different leadership.

     

    This is my problem with these arguments. New leadership comes to the organization, keeps some of the old staff on, use a different draft strategy, but they still have past failures hang over their head because they're "the same guys".

    Disclaimer: I'm on board with the first couple picks but wasn't thrilled with the "Reach for Leach," (I think I'll copyright that) move. 

     

    My issue with these arguments is the use of TR as some sort of Boogeyman. It was time was for him to go and I'm glad the Twins made a change, but he was far from the only issue in the organization. A large number of people who also contributed to the dismal drafting/developing/signing of players are still here. Does that mean they're destined to continue the streak of poor performance? No, but I can certainly understand why that is a concern. Ultimately the draft decisions ran through TR, but those same scouts and development staff who provided him with their own data/professional opinions are doing the same for Falvine. Their past failures are relevant. They shouldn't have to wear them as a dunce cap but they shouldn't be forgotten simply because the ear they're whispering into has changed.

     

    The first day of the draft was disappointing. Not everybody may feel that way, but it's unfortunately the overwhelming feeling at this point.  Things can change with a couple high upside picks above slot in the 3rd and 4th round, and hopefully they do. 

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    The argument that we have too many shortstops in the system strikes me as inherently pretty silly. At this level, they're *all* shortstops. Miguel Sano was a shortstop. Jim Thome was a shortstop. The best player on every high school team in the world is a shortstop, unless he throws left-handed. You don't draft second basemen or first basemen (which is why I had no interest in McKay as a hitter). They're the guys who are not athletic enough to play the premium positions.

     

    If Lewis sticks at short, fabulous. Who knows where Gordon or Polanco will be in five years? If not, well, there's plenty of room left on the defensive spectrum for a guy who can run and hit.

     

     

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    I just struggle to believe that Boras would do that.  While he is always looking out for his players, it would be a pretty big hit to him to essentially cause the Twins to never deal with him again as they wouldn't be able to trust anything he says. 

    Never mind that he already has a sketchy reputation about free agency. Baseball is a small community. Boras could essentially blacklist himself with that kind of move. And if Boras is blacklisted, potential draftees stop signing with him.

     

    That kind of move is a classic "counting pennies while the dollars fly by" situation. Boras doesn't have one client. He can't afford to piss off everybody in baseball with an underhanded move because it will cost him tens of millions, potentially hundreds of millions, down the road.

     

    Boras isn't a stupid guy. He's not going to risk his future over $500,000 on a single player. I'm sure he's going to drive hard at the Twins and get the most money possible for his client but it's unlikely he's going to make a face and say "neener neener neener, I LIED, stupid Twins!" during negotiations.

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    Disclaimer: I'm on board with the first couple picks but wasn't thrilled with the "Reach for Leach," (I think I'll copyright that) move. 

     

    My issue with these arguments is the use of TR as some sort of Boogeyman. It was time was for him to go and I'm glad the Twins made a change, but he was far from the only issue in the organization. A large number of people who also contributed to the dismal drafting/developing/signing of players are still here. Does that mean they're destined to continue the streak of poor performance? No, but I can certainly understand why that is a concern. Ultimately the draft decisions ran through TR, but those same scouts and development staff who provided him with their own data/professional opinions are doing the same for Falvine. Their past failures are relevant. They shouldn't have to wear them as a dunce cap but they shouldn't be forgotten simply because the ear they're whispering into has changed.

     

    The first day of the draft was disappointing. Not everybody may feel that way, but it's unfortunately the overwhelming feeling at this point.  Things can change with a couple high upside picks above slot in the 3rd and 4th round, and hopefully they do. 

    Well said. In no way am I saying that this front office deserves an entirely blank slate, but they do deserve a little leeway, particularly when they actually do something different than their failures of years past.

     

    I'm skeptical of what happened yesterday. I preferred going with the big talent in Greene and letting it play out.

     

    But the Twins didn't do that. It doesn't mean they're wrong, it doesn't mean they're right. But, at the very least, they deserve a little slack to see where all of this is going.

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    Never mind that he already has a sketchy reputation about free agency. Baseball is a small community. Boras could essentially blacklist himself with that kind of move. And if Boras is blacklisted, potential draftees stop signing with him.

     

    That kind of move is a classic "counting pennies while the dollars fly by" situation. Boras doesn't have one client. He can't afford to piss off everybody in baseball with an underhanded move because it will cost him tens of millions, potentially hundreds of millions, down the road.

     

    Boras isn't a stupid guy. He's not going to risk his future over $500,000 on a single player.

    I think the other argument against this is that I read the the team picking 1/1 actually get to negotiate with their draft picks, meaning that something binding could be signed. All other draft positions only get to give 'approximates', which could allow an agent to 're-think' their position.

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    Analyzing.

     

    From all reports, #1 seems to not be correct.  The Twins and Lewis had an agreement to sign for underslot before he was selected.

     

    #2 could be correct.  However, as someone else noted above the draft seemed to play out mostly what was predicted.  

     

    #3 I think is doubtful. My guess is that Carlson was just overrated.  

     

    #4  While the Twins are cheap, cheap, cheap, the possible savings from squeezing your draft allocation isn't very significant.

     

    #5  The problem with #5 is that as you go lower in the draft pool, adding your savings to their draft slots isn't enough.   Someone mentioned Blayne Enlow and him being a doubtful sign.  But, if you draft him at #35 and add the Lewis savings to that draft slot, $1,9 million, you can create a total bonus of $2.8-3.2 million based upon the reports of the slot savings from 1.1.   But, if we draft Enlow, or a similar player, at 3.1 that draft slot is only $755,000 meaning that the max bonus you can offer is $1.6-2,0 million.  

     

    I get that going underslot can be seen as trading down from 1.1 to 1.5 to trade up from 1.35 to 1.15, but when you blow by #35 and #37 without looking at a top 15-20 player you are then making up the difference in the much later rounds with a much less impressive package to offer.  And that assumes that you a player drops that you want and that you can actually sign the player.  

     

    For example, what if the player the want is Enlow and they make the $2 million bonus offer and he refuses and heads to LSU.  Then you lose the slot at 3.1 and the whatever you saved underslot at 1.1

     

    In the end, although at first I thought the Twins management was just being too cute, I think they preferred McKay and Lewis to Greene and Wright, and Lewis was willing ot take what the Twins wanted to offer.  The money saving may or may not be used, and they will draft to their draft board.

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    That could be true. Have you read that's his preference anywhere? (I've been looking but haven't seen that, usually that is well known)

     

    BA hinted at it in his scouting report:

     

    Enlow is the kind of pitcher who sometimes makes it to school, and if he does, blossoms into a potential front-of-the-rotation ace, but his obvious potential may lead a team to spend money now to avoid losing the chance to get him later. The Louisiana State signee is all arms and legs right now, but he has the frame to fill out and become much more physical as an adult. Enlow's velocity was down early this spring, as he would sit 88-90, touching 92. But by the end of his high school season he was again sitting in the low 90s and touching 94 with an easy delivery, loads of athleticism, a fast arm and a plus curveball. Enlow has excellent feel for spinning the ball and he has more advanced command and control of his fastball than most high school fireballers. He's toyed with a changeup that looks promising but is a distant third pitch for now. Enlow is a long-time Louisiana State fan who will be tough to sway from his Tigers commitment, but he's shown enough potential that teams will consider cutting him a very large check.

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    I think we have to remember a few things. First, Falvey and co reviewed our scouts write ups on many players over the last decade of drafting before this draft and apparently they trusted them enough to go with Lewis - the scouts guy - over the analytics guy - McKay. So this idea that the Twins scouts suck doesn't really hold up. Klaw has been pretty positive about them for years as well. I do think changing the draft guru from Deron Johnson to Scott Johnson can be pretty effective b/c it'll change the scope of what we're trying to do (less focus on fastballs), I suspect our scouting reports on players has always been pretty good.

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