Twins 6, Royals 3: Twins Lose No-Hitter in Ninth Inning

10 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I'm not sure which I like better: Rocco not sending Ryan out for the 8th, or getting himself into a situation where he has Duran warming in a game his team had a no hitter and 6-0 lead thru 7.

Duran was warm? I was only watching on the Gamecast on my phone. Why didn't he let Duran get the 9th for an all-rookie combined no-hitter?

I couldn't care less about "combined" no hitters. They're meaningless to me. Completely. Nothing more than a participation trophy.

Still, Joe Ryan was at 106 pitches. I can't see the Twins allowing him to go 135+ pitches in pursuit of a no hitter just to have him blow his shoulder out (See: Mets and Johan Santana)

Nothing wins over an audience like finding creative ways to call them stupid.

Are these different armchair GMs than the ones who clamored for them to quit blowing the season by running Pagan out as closer for two months?  While the enlightened were pontificating about unlocking his spin rate and velocity?  

In seriousness, I get why they pulled him.  That pitch count was up there.  I can also see why one would say that they already royally F’d this season, why not give the kid his chance at history.  The kid has hardly pitched more than 4 2/3 in any outing all year.  Is there a litany of documented cases of young pitchers derailing their career from throwing 130 pitches in a game instead of 100?  

Joe must be just as dumb as these armchair GMs, because it seems he agrees, judging by how he ended that interview.  He sounded thrilled.  

Come on, Joe, get a clue about theoretical spreadsheet simulated baseball.  Also, get a clue about your own body..  

I don’t know how anyone could question it when they’re doing such a great job at keeping these guys healthy.  Shut up and throw 20% more elbow torquing breaking balls, and throw it 5 mph faster.

The loyal fans can just shut up too.  It’s a privilege to pay like $300 to sit in an empty stadium and watch a AAAA pitcher screw up what would’ve been the best moment of the season.  Go somewhere else if you want something remotely interesting to watch.

Lastly.  Desperately needed in the next series?  What, to slot in after the stopper, Chi Chi Gonzalez?  They’re 6 games out of the division and have to jump two teams.  Half the team is in a body bag.  Their playoff odds are zero.  It’s over.

Pennant drive starts today.

I don't blame Rocco for pulling Ryan when he did, as us fans have been conditioned to believe in the all-telling pitch count.  But what if he pitches in the 8th and gets out of it with a handful of pitches.  It's not completely unheard of.  Then he's got a chance in the 9th starting with around 112 pitches.

This reminds me of 2010 when Kevin Slowey was pulled in a no hitter when he was at 106 pitches.  The no hitter was ruined by the reliever on the very next at bat.  Slowey never had another chance at one. 

At the time, (and also tonight) I felt sad because most likely, this will be the young pitcher's only chance at it.  

I do blame Rocco for not making an effort to complete the no-hitter in the 9th.  Moran was struggling and walked two in a row.  The situation (and the fans) screamed for a change.  Rocco made the wrong choice again, and the predictable happened.

The Twins are in great need of an emotional boost.  The Twins fans are in need of one too.  Fate gave them an opportunity for one tonight.  It is sad it was thrown away by Rocco.

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

I'm not sure which I like better: Rocco not sending Ryan out for the 8th, or getting himself into a situation where he has Duran warming in a game his team had a no hitter and 6-0 lead thru 7.

 

Also no game Twins game would be complete without incomprehensible baserunning.

 

Hard for me to even take any joy out of this win. Baseball needs to have some soul, not computer printouts.

A master class tonight in how to take an useless exhibition game, create some brief "nono" excitement within a seeming blowout, and somehow, someway, figure out how to blow the nono and allow one of the worst teams in mlb to bring the tying run to the ondeck circle after starting the 9th with a 6-0 lead. I'm with you on this one Chief, its a sad if not predictable state of affairs with our Twins right now.

I'm not sure about the reasoning of having Moran throw 40+ pitches and the need to have one of your lefties pitch two innings. Go for the "easy" win and use anotehr arm in the 9th.

We can lament all we want about the missed opportunity, the reality is there will never be a no hitter on this team as long as this management is in charge.  Rocco is following the FO philosophy and/or plan, and he believes it himself.  Pitch counts and times through the order are here to stay.  We have only had 2 complete games since Rocco got here, and that pitcher is in Toronto.  Do not expect to see another, no no or not.  I feel bad for the kid, but he has been groomed from both systems he has been in that this is the way, so he accepts it all the way.  I don't think he is surprised, or even disappointed in being pulled.  He probably even expected it.  So, again, I feel bad for the kid, but I feel even worse knowing we will never see another Jack Morris who would tell Rocco you will take this ball out of my cold dead hand.    

For those that are saying Ryan didn't mind being pulled, there were two post game interviews. In the first that was conducted on the field he was clearly pissed and couldn't even answer the question he was asked. The second interview in the clubhouse shows a Ryan that had calmed down and he deftly handled the situation. 

For those about to jump off the ledge here is some reasoned perspective for you

I can't comment on Rocco pulling Ryan. There's enough on that. What I can say is that I'm happy we got to play KC. They are our aspirin after the guardians headache. Good news about Ryan, but it's also consistent with the narrative I've read in past post that he is excellent against poor teams and poor against excellent teams. As a rookie this is to be expected and I look forward to seeing him continue his growth.

It was also nice that Kansas City pitch batting practice for our boys and made everyone feel better. The guardians won again and that means a five-game lead with 22 games to go.

17 minutes ago, wabene said:

For those about to jump off the ledge here is some reasoned perspective for you

 

I wonder how many of the 316 recognized no hitters in the history of the game required more than 106 pitches.  And more than that, I wonder how many of them survived the night after throwing so many pitches.  Did any of them pitch again that season?  It would be interesting to do that research, but it looks like I won't need to, because AG has given me the only history lesson I need.    

All of that was somewhat tongue in cheek, but it does kind of give a hint to what I think of the mindset that a 26 year old, in the prime of his athletic life, is going to ruin his arm by throwing 20 or 30 more pitches on a perfect September night.  If he somehow gives up a hit anywhere along the line he is gone.  He knows it and the fans know it.  But to never know if he could have done it is a shame.  There are 22 games left.  He will start maybe 4 of them, and you can baby him then as much as you please.  If it were any month but September, I think a lot more of us would understand.  But if AG says the above isn't reasonable, then I guess this extremely humble observer must cede the floor.  

58 minutes ago, Mark G said:

I wonder how many of the 316 recognized no hitters in the history of the game required more than 106 pitches.  And more than that, I wonder how many of them survived the night after throwing so many pitches.  Did any of them pitch again that season?  It would be interesting to do that research, but it looks like I won't need to, because AG has given me the only history lesson I need.    

All of that was somewhat tongue in cheek, but it does kind of give a hint to what I think of the mindset that a 26 year old, in the prime of his athletic life, is going to ruin his arm by throwing 20 or 30 more pitches on a perfect September night.  If he somehow gives up a hit anywhere along the line he is gone.  He knows it and the fans know it.  But to never know if he could have done it is a shame.  There are 22 games left.  He will start maybe 4 of them, and you can baby him then as much as you please.  If it were any month but September, I think a lot more of us would understand.  But if AG says the above isn't reasonable, then I guess this extremely humble observer must cede the floor.  

I said reasoned perspective, meaning there is another viewpoint to consider. I did not say it was the final word. Maybe relax a little. I would've let him out for the 8th. He was on pace for 136 pitches and if that was where he was headed in the 9th then I would've been in a conundrum. Not sure what I would do then. Everything doesn't have to be so black and white with fevered responses to everything. Would it be worth it to let your one young starter who has had no injury issues throw 136 pitches for the chance at a personal achievement in what is a team sport? How did Santana pitch after the Mets let him go in a similar situation? That is a tough decision and I'm glad I didn't have to make it. 

22 minutes ago, wabene said:

I said reasoned perspective, meaning there is another viewpoint to consider. I did not say it was the final word. Maybe relax a little. I would've let him out for the 8th. He was on pace for 136 pitches and if that was where he was headed in the 9th then I would've been in a conundrum. Not sure what I would do then. Everything doesn't have to be so black and white with fevered responses to everything. A little nuance, some listening, some consideration. Oh and here is the little smiley face?

I did consider the other viewpoint; I simply don't agree with it.  And that is not the final word, either.  I don't even get the final word at home.    

I'm sorry if it doesn't always come across the way I intended it to.  I do feel pretty strongly about the dogged belief most managers and/or front offices have about babying pitchers.  I happen to believe that it plays a role, maybe a big role, in the increase in injuries I have seen in my lifetime.  No one is stretched out to the most of their ability anymore, and even when someone shows the ability to be a workhorse they pull in the reins.  They play it so safe that the pitchers are never really safe.  They believe more in their bullpens than they do in the starters they have developed over the course of many years.  And I am on my soap box again, so I better get off before I get told to stay on topic.    

Topic:  Ryan gets pulled with 6 outs to go in a no hitter because of a dogged belief in pitch counts.  This extremely humble observer believes he should have been allowed to at least try.  And that, and 8 bucks will get me a cup of coffee at Caribou.    

7 minutes ago, Mark G said:

I did consider the other viewpoint; I simply don't agree with it.  And that is not the final word, either.  I don't even get the final word at home.    

I'm sorry if it doesn't always come across the way I intended it to.  I do feel pretty strongly about the dogged belief most managers and/or front offices have about babying pitchers.  I happen to believe that it plays a role, maybe a big role, in the increase in injuries I have seen in my lifetime.  No one is stretched out to the most of their ability anymore, and even when someone shows the ability to be a workhorse they pull in the reins.  They play it so safe that the pitchers are never really safe.  They believe more in their bullpens than they do in the starters they have developed over the course of many years.  And I am on my soap box again, so I better get off before I get told to stay on topic.    

Topic:  Ryan gets pulled with 6 outs to go in a no hitter because of a dogged belief in pitch counts.  This extremely humble observer believes he should have been allowed to at least try.  And that, and 8 bucks will get me a cup of coffee at Caribou.    

Damn you got my unedited version. Touche?

While I understand he likely wouldn't have finished and they weren't going to let him go 140 pitches, they should have at least let him start the 8th and see what happens. If he got lucky and had a 10 pitch inning, who knows. 

A complete Twins win! Good pitching, good fielding, good hitting and a Watkins Factor event worthy of ESPN top plays list.

One of the few times in the last two weeks that I actually found myself agreeing with a Baldelli decision. It would have been sweet for JR to have that complete no-hitter, but in this moment, I felt it was a good decision to rest him.

It was great to see Correa continue the hot bat but better to see Arraez leveling that swing and putting on the sting for hits.

Go Twins! Twins Geezer.....out!

I think no-hitters are overrated in general. They're kind of neat, like when a batter hits for the cycle, but ignoring walks makes them less meaningful. Nobody would call a game where a pitcher has a 3 hit, no walk shutout a "no walker" and nobody tracks how many 0-walk complete games occurred in history.

Ryan had allowed 2 baserunners, the perfect game was not in play and he wasn't going to get to pitch 2 more innings. It's a team sport, why not let someone else try to finish the no-hitter.

26 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

While I understand he likely wouldn't have finished and they weren't going to let him go 140 pitches, they should have at least let him start the 8th and see what happens. If he got lucky and had a 10 pitch inning, who knows. 

This is exactly where I was last night,

One of the reasons he got pulled after the 7th was because he might very well have gotten through the 8th without still giving up a hit, but sitting on a pitch count north of 120. Because now the pressure really would have been on for Rocco to "let him try" for the no-hitter, regardless of the impact on the pitcher. They don't want any part of starting pitchers throwing 130+ pitches and seeing guys blow their arms out. (Cubs fans are all nodding their heads right now, thinking about Kerry Wood)

I'm sure Ryan wasn't thrilled about coming out, but you know what? That's how it goes, and you don't just do something because the player wants it. Managers have to be strong enough to do things that might not be popular but are in the best interests of the team. We need Joe Ryan to be healthy and a staple of this rotation.

And clearly, "computer printouts" are the new meme for "anything I don't like" about the Twins. Y'all need some new material.

2 hours ago, Mark G said:

I wonder how many of the 316 recognized no hitters in the history of the game required more than 106 pitches.  And more than that, I wonder how many of them survived the night after throwing so many pitches.  Did any of them pitch again that season?  It would be interesting to do that research, but it looks like I won't need to, because AG has given me the only history lesson I need.    

All of that was somewhat tongue in cheek, but it does kind of give a hint to what I think of the mindset that a 26 year old, in the prime of his athletic life, is going to ruin his arm by throwing 20 or 30 more pitches on a perfect September night.  If he somehow gives up a hit anywhere along the line he is gone.  He knows it and the fans know it.  But to never know if he could have done it is a shame.  There are 22 games left.  He will start maybe 4 of them, and you can baby him then as much as you please.  If it were any month but September, I think a lot more of us would understand.  But if AG says the above isn't reasonable, then I guess this extremely humble observer must cede the floor.  

I suspect most took more than 106 pitches, but then we never used to worry about pitch count.  

I didn't take the time to read all the comments yet. But I'll say that letting Ryan go for the no-hitter would have been tantamount to giving up on the season. The Twins' only chance to make the rest of the season relevant is to win the next 7 games. That means Ryan needs to be at full strength on Sunday. For those who feel he should have continued to pitch we'll just have to agree to disagree about Rocco making the correct decision.

I'm very encouraged by Joe Ryan's finishing stretch so far. *Knock on wood* He is our one young starter that has been healthy. He did look effected after his COVID bout, but has bounced back to look stronger than ever. His velocity is holding better than at any time previously and is now touching 95-96. His smooth, seemingly low effort delivery bode well. If he wants to perform against the better lineups he has a couple of things to work on. Command of his off-speed stuff could help him put guys away limiting the foul balls and keeping his pitch count down. I'm more confident now that he can improve. 

26 minutes ago, wabene said:

I'm very encouraged by Joe Ryan's finishing stretch so far.

In his previous 9 innings he allowed 9 runs. Last night was a good night and his health is actually quite encouraging, especially compared to the rest of the rotation.