Twins 2, White Sox 12: Twins Crushed in Game 1 vs Sox

I know I’m in the minority on this, but it’s hard to see why we would mortgage our future by trading any legitimate prospect or big leaguer likely to be part of the plan in 2023 and beyond for any rest-of-year rental.  It’s painful to say, but based on our play over the past month, we’re just not that good and have too many holes to fill, mostly on the mound, to truly be considered real contenders. Let’s see how the rest of this series plays out, but the data points are starting to accumulate.

Sure, we may hold on to take the weak central, but we should still be focusing on a bigger open window over the next several years. So if we move anyone, move the players who are not likely to be here next year - the list might include Kepler, Sano, Urshela, and Sanchez. Maybe even Correa if you can’t get a commitment out of him - even though by keeping him you still retain some chance of catching lightning in a bottle this year. 
 

6 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Gray careening back to earth is really bad news for the twins. Right now, the only somewhat reliable guy in the rotation is Ryan, and he’s been inconsistent as a rookie usually is. This rotation would be underdogs against any team who could qualify for the playoffs in the American League. I think the twins are probably the 7th best team in the AL. The team was 27-16 (43 games) on May 24. They are now 22-26 in their last 48. More than half the season playing sub .500 ball

Gray has become Jose Berríos. 

"The All-Star who came under Twitter scrutiny the past few games for his ‘lack of hitting’ silenced the haters and keyed up the crowd after landing on third base cuing the “Buck Truck” horn. Buxton stayed on third base through three hitters and never got a chance to come home. 

One of the most fun moments of the game was being able to witness the “Buck Truck”, something that Buxton does in honor of his father who was a truck driver and his teammates have joined him in the dugout. To watch it happen as he got a standing triple was something really neat."

I, for one don't find the trucker horn thing that I did as a child on the highways even close to "fun", and find it sad that it can be considered one of the most fun moments of a baseball game, But whatever. To each its own. I even found it lame as a kid. I mean really, what kid didn't do the truck horn thing? And every parent taught it to them, regardless if the father drove a truck. It just looks desperate when you are batting all of .200. And nobody "hates" Buxton. We all just want him and hope for him to find consistent success, and not this sad repetitive streaks of failure.

And Buxton had many chances to score from third base through the three hitters. Especially when Chicago's third baseman was about 30-35 feet from the base. Rod Carew would have stolen home in a heartbeat. No reason that a player with Buxton's speed doesn't ram it down the opposing teams’ throat when they shift like that with a runner with Buxton's speed on third. And it doesn't even take a runner that fast to score, if they just time it right. If the pitcher speeds up and balks, they score anyway,  

They should fine and suspend players that leave the bench like in the NBA. So tough of them. Tough guys. They weren't going to fight anyway. They just wanted attention.  It is just ridiculous how these "men" puff their chests for nothing. Game was over anyway. Such tough guys.

Been a rough couple of times though the rotation, only two pitchers got to ten innings (Winder and Bundy) and their ERA's were 6.30 and 4.5, Smelter had a good start and horrible start ERA 9.64, and Ryan's ERA 1.93, but only got to 9 1/3 innings.

They won 4 of the last ten, but if something doesn't change with these results going forward it could be a tough second half. The last thing the Twins need is to lead the Division most of the year and loss it late after what happened in 21. They need re-reinforcements and at minimum make a move or two just to keep the fans happy and excited about next year.

One word could describe the Twins "performance" last night:  disgraceful.  Twins have now lost 5 of their past 7 games.  In those 5 losses they have given up 42 runs.  The pitching has been suspect all year.  Like many aspects of the team it plays well for short stretches and rotten for longer stretches.  Oh yes, and the comment on Buxton haters is sad.  I'm not a Buxton hater but a realist.  The man was hitting .215 entering yesterday's game.  He's been so streaky.  He struck out 4 of 5 times the other night.  He will have a good game or two here and there and everyone says he's the greatest player in the league.  Let's get real here.  He's good not great.  Even our 35 million dollar shortstop isn't performing like a superstar should.  He's had just an average season as far as superstar shortstops go.  If this team wins the central by default it will probably be embarrassed again in the playoffs unless the FO can shore it up.

8 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

I know I’m in the minority on this, but it’s hard to see why we would mortgage our future by trading any legitimate prospect or big leaguer likely to be part of the plan in 2023 and beyond for any rest-of-year rental.  It’s painful to say, but based on our play over the past month, we’re just not that good and have too many holes to fill, mostly on the mound, to truly be considered real contenders. Let’s see how the rest of this series plays out, but the data points are starting to accumulate.

Sure, we may hold on to take the weak central, but we should still be focusing on a bigger open window over the next several years. So if we move anyone, move the players who are not likely to be here next year - the list might include Kepler, Sano, Urshela, and Sanchez. Maybe even Correa if you can’t get a commitment out of him - even though by keeping him you still retain some chance of catching lightning in a bottle this year. 
 

 

Not sure you are in minority. I totally agree. Maybe not Correa, but I would add Archer and Bundy if the can get anything. I just don't believe they would have any chance in a playoff series. Better to set-up for next year. 

Good thing Vikings training camp starts in two weeks and we will have football in a month or so. I stopped watching these games after the home Cleveland series they blew, have just been checking scores since and its been a wise decision. This team is who we thought they were before the season started. An offense that can be top 10 if it wants to be, meh starting pitching and GARBAGE bullpen. The whole team over achieved at the same time for a month or so (much like 2015) and has revealed its true self along the way up to this point. Its not fun to watch, so I wont. Hopefully we dont make the play offs as it would hopefully sound the death knell of Rocco and maybe wake up the front office that we need pitching in droves if they actually want to compete. And by compete I mean sniff a WS, not win the worst division in baseball and maybe snag one play off win. That's not competitive, that's just being a baseball team. 

3 hours ago, h2oface said:

And Buxton had many chances to score from third base through the three hitters. Especially when Chicago's third baseman was about 30-35 feet from the base.

This is a situation screaming out for a bunt down the 3B line. Get the runner home.

Yeah, the pitching really hasn't been that good for awhile now.  Started with the bullpen, and it's essentially everyone(pitchers.)  Team is now 13th in team ERA(MLB) and dropping.  If you look at the numbers, tonight's pitching matchup does not favor the Twins.  There are enough good position players to have some hope for the future.  But I see almost no hope on the pitching staff.  Not only that, this team has almost ZERO intangibles(doing the little things, etc).  I've said it before, without Correa, this team is no better than last year.

I actually attended last night's game. The Twins honored my daughter's state champion softball team on the field (too bad TV didn't pick it up so my dad could see it but sponsors pay the bills). The girls were thrilled to see Buxton in the dugout.

Sonny Gray was not good, even from the start. Chicago was not hitting the ball hard but they were finding holes in the defense. The game changed completely when Gray took the comebacker line drive off his body. I was pretty sure Rocco was going to pull him, especially when he couldn't throw a strike with his warmup pitches. 20/20 hindsight says that was the last chance to compete in the game.

After the grand slam the pace of the game slowed down even more. I didn't think that was possible given how long the game had taken to get to that point. It was brutal. The pitchers stand on the mound forever, the batter steps out, the pitcher gets more rosin. Cueto was (understandably) irritated when the batter called time as he was in his delivery but he had paused so long I was wondering if he had fallen asleep waiting.

I was sitting in a section with the other state championship teams for softball and baseball. These are parents and kids who live baseball - competing or practicing year round spending almost all of their free time and money on the game. The dominant discussion was how unwatchable and boring major league baseball is now. The pitchers take FOREVER to throw a pitch. A leadoff triple in a close game gets turned into nothing with one batter striking out looking. Rocco challenges (and loses the challenge) on a play at the plate trailing 7-1 in an ugly blowout loss. Kirilloff lays up on a ball in LF instead of attempting a sliding catch. 6:40 game start didn't help us get home before 11:00 even though we left during the 7th inning stretch. The only people who seemed to be having fun that night were the people hanging out at the bar and ignoring the game. All for the privilege of spending $32 per seat for tickets (we were nearly in LF in section U) and godawful prices for food.

This was my first game back at Target Field since before the pandemic. I'll stick to attending my daughter's softball games and go back to the following the Twins on the radio and highlights on the internet.

25 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I actually attended last night's game. The Twins honored my daughter's state champion softball team on the field (too bad TV didn't pick it up so my dad could see it but sponsors pay the bills). The girls were thrilled to see Buxton in the dugout.

Sonny Gray was not good, even from the start. Chicago was not hitting the ball hard but they were finding holes in the defense. The game changed completely when Gray took the comebacker line drive off his body. I was pretty sure Rocco was going to pull him, especially when he couldn't throw a strike with his warmup pitches. 20/20 hindsight says that was the last chance to compete in the game.

After the grand slam the pace of the game slowed down even more. I didn't think that was possible given how long the game had taken to get to that point. It was brutal. The pitchers stand on the mound forever, the batter steps out, the pitcher gets more rosin. Cueto was (understandably) irritated when the batter called time as he was in his delivery but he had paused so long I was wondering if he had fallen asleep waiting.

I was sitting in a section with the other state championship teams for softball and baseball. These are parents and kids who live baseball - competing or practicing year round spending almost all of their free time and money on the game. The dominant discussion was how unwatchable and boring major league baseball is now. The pitchers take FOREVER to throw a pitch. A leadoff triple in a close game gets turned into nothing with one batter striking out looking. Rocco challenges (and loses the challenge) on a play at the plate trailing 7-1 in an ugly blowout loss. Kirilloff lays up on a ball in LF instead of attempting a sliding catch. 6:40 game start didn't help us get home before 11:00 even though we left during the 7th inning stretch. The only people who seemed to be having fun that night were the people hanging out at the bar and ignoring the game. All for the privilege of spending $32 per seat for tickets (we were nearly in LF in section U) and godawful prices for food.

This was my first game back at Target Field since before the pandemic. I'll stick to attending my daughter's softball games and go back to the following the Twins on the radio and highlights on the internet.

It was certainly a rough game to watch in person. I've been to 15 games or so this season and that was by far the worst. We left after the grand slam. Rocco should've pulled Gray when he was hit by the pitch. Cueto is one of the slowest working starters in MLB. 

2 hours ago, Whitey333 said:

One word could describe the Twins "performance" last night:  disgraceful.  Twins have now lost 5 of their past 7 games.  In those 5 losses they have given up 42 runs.  The pitching has been suspect all year.  Like many aspects of the team it plays well for short stretches and rotten for longer stretches.  Oh yes, and the comment on Buxton haters is sad.  I'm not a Buxton hater but a realist.  The man was hitting .215 entering yesterday's game.  He's been so streaky.  He struck out 4 of 5 times the other night.  He will have a good game or two here and there and everyone says he's the greatest player in the league.  Let's get real here.  He's good not great.  Even our 35 million dollar shortstop isn't performing like a superstar should.  He's had just an average season as far as superstar shortstops go.  If this team wins the central by default it will probably be embarrassed again in the playoffs unless the FO can shore it up.

I get it has been a struggle for Buxton, but I keep on coming back to the constant quotes we hear from the Twins.  Like the one below in the Athletic article from last night.

“It’s been a strenuous, truly 24-hour-a-day job for him to take the field each day,” Baldelli said. “And that’s what he deals with. And he’s open to dealing with that every day. There are days where walking is not easy and he ends up playing in the game that day, and as a whole playing well.” https://theathletic.com/3425073/2022/07/14/byron-buxton-twins-more-work/

For better or for worse, Buxton is probably operating at 70-90% capacity.  We have seen so many star players have a "wash" of a season because of injuries, whether hip, knee, hand, etc.  I can't imagine how hard it is to hit with a sore knee and keep on top of the wide range of pitches coming at him.  Hopefully he can feel good going into the playoffs and next year. And yet somehow, Buxton is tied for 3rd in AB per HR at 11.5, not too far behind Alvarez and Judge (10.3 & 10.5 respectively.)

Correa is maybe not as hot this year as Swanson, Turner, Pena, or Bogaerts, but he is right there with the other top short stops in the top 10.  OBP, SLG, AVG, OPS, wRC+ = all 4th-7th place in MLB for shortstops.  Barrels / PA % = 6th.  Hard Hit % = 2nd.  If anything, his biggest struggle hitting has been the average launch angle at only 9.5 and his defense hasn't been quite as elite.  And May was arguably his roughest month defensively, but he also had to deal with the hand injury.  I guess an "average season as far as superstar shortstops go" is pretty nice IMO.

Well the Twins are stuck in 1st place until the All Star break so at least they will be leading the division after the break.  The White Sox have the easiest schedule come September so the Twins were always likely to get reeled in at some point.  Maybe the arms just need some rest and the All Star break will give them what they need to be more effective down the stretch.  Will have to wait and see.  

Still they are in first place and I have enjoyed this season much more than last season.  They still have a chance to turn things around just have to get healthy and play just bit better than the rest of the division.

Sherry I do appreciate your write-up!  Thanks for doing them.

One thing, however.  You wrote " The All-Star who came under Twitter scrutiny the past few games for his ‘lack of hitting’ silenced the haters and keyed up the crowd after landing on third base cuing the “Buck Truck” horn. "

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive here, but I don't think "haters" is an appropriate term to be using here.  Concerned?  Upset?  Disappointed? - Sure.  But IMO there is too much real hate in this world right now that using this term to describe how one feels about a ball players slump is concerning, IMO.

It is increasingly difficult on this site to find rational concerns expressed about the Twins amidst the flood of wannabe Pat Reusses every time the Twins have a bad game.  I stopped by last night's game chat briefly and couldn't tell if the fury was rooted in disappointment or schadenfreude.

Reusse has numerous trenchant thoughts, but to me this skill is superseded by the adrenaline rush he gets from being satiric about the latest moment of Minnesota sports misery.  News for the wannabes: you lack the trenchant thoughts entirely.

Many here blend sharp critique and thoughtfulness very well, and thanks to all of you who do.  I hope when I comment that I am not guilty of what I criticize.  And this has been an inexplicable season from one game to the next -- but the Twins keeping fighting hard despite the physical and strategic obstacles.  Positive I remain.

It's tough to gauge how hurt Buxton is. I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of those offseason surgery types of things where he can't really hurt it more, but it will require surgery to fix things.

In any case, people seem upset that Buxton is an All Star caliber player. He's one of the best center fielders in the game. So what if he's not the guaranteed MVP if he plays 120 games level player many fans on this site want him to be?

Correa's defensive numbers are what's holding his production lower than previous years. His bat is right about where it should be relative to competition. 

The best players on the team are not the reason the Twins aren't winning.

9 minutes ago, BH67 said:

It is increasingly difficult on this site to find rational concerns expressed about the Twins amidst the flood of wannabe Pat Reusses every time the Twins have a bad game.  I stopped by last night's game chat briefly and couldn't tell if the fury was rooted in disappointment or schadenfreude.

Reusse has numerous trenchant thoughts, but to me this skill is superseded by the adrenaline rush he gets from being satiric about the latest moment of Minnesota sports misery.  News for the wannabes: you lack the trenchant thoughts entirely.

Many here blend sharp critique and thoughtfulness very well, and thanks to all of you who do.  I hope when I comment that I am not guilty of what I criticize.  And this has been an inexplicable season from one game to the next -- but the Twins keeping fighting hard despite the physical and strategic obstacles.  Positive I remain.

Mostly I agree with you, but the truth is the Twins are under .500 dating back to the start of June. It's definitely time to be concerned this team doesn't have the legs to hold onto a playoff spot. 

2 hours ago, TwinsAce said:

I get it has been a struggle for Buxton, but I keep on coming back to the constant quotes we hear from the Twins.  Like the one below in the Athletic article from last night.

“It’s been a strenuous, truly 24-hour-a-day job for him to take the field each day,” Baldelli said. “And that’s what he deals with. And he’s open to dealing with that every day. There are days where walking is not easy and he ends up playing in the game that day, and as a whole playing well.” https://theathletic.com/3425073/2022/07/14/byron-buxton-twins-more-work/

For better or for worse, Buxton is probably operating at 70-90% capacity.  We have seen so many star players have a "wash" of a season because of injuries, whether hip, knee, hand, etc.  I can't imagine how hard it is to hit with a sore knee and keep on top of the wide range of pitches coming at him.  Hopefully he can feel good going into the playoffs and next year. And yet somehow, Buxton is tied for 3rd in AB per HR at 11.5, not too far behind Alvarez and Judge (10.3 & 10.5 respectively.)

 

Correa is maybe not as hot this year as Swanson, Turner, Pena, or Bogaerts, but he is right there with the other top short stops in the top 10.  OBP, SLG, AVG, OPS, wRC+ = all 4th-7th place in MLB for shortstops.  Barrels / PA % = 6th.  Hard Hit % = 2nd.  If anything, his biggest struggle hitting has been the average launch angle at only 9.5 and his defense hasn't been quite as elite.  And May was arguably his roughest month defensively, but he also had to deal with the hand injury.  I guess an "average season as far as superstar shortstops go" is pretty nice IMO.

Not sure how much he is helping the team at this point.  Buxton's strength is his legs.  Legs(knees) typically get worse without extended rest.  I would expect Buxton to continue to get worse and a good chance he isn't playing by the end of the season.

1 hour ago, SanoMustGo said:

Not sure how much he is helping the team at this point.  Buxton's strength is his legs.  Legs(knees) typically get worse without extended rest.  I would expect Buxton to continue to get worse and a good chance he isn't playing by the end of the season.

All Star Game
OPS+ 133. 
Still has elite CF defensive stats when he's playing there.

You're right. Buxton isn't helping. There's always Jake Cave!

7 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

All Star Game
OPS+ 133. 
Still has elite CF defensive stats when he's playing there.

You're right. Buxton isn't helping. There's always Jake Cave!

Could care less about the all-star game.  Haven't paid attention to that crap for a decade.  However, it sounds like there is a monumental effort going on 24/7 just to get him on the field.   That is really concerning. Remember, if it's his knees, most likely it will only get worse, not better.  The last thing I want to hear is he plays in the all-star game and aggravates the injury.

I'm more concerned about his long term health.  He has rarely been healthy, and those things generally don't get better as he gets older.  Even when he plays alot(this season)it seems there are many things that keep him from being close to 100%.  He is great defensively, but has become a liability on offense, and I'm sure that is mostly due to his injuries.

15 minutes ago, SanoMustGo said:

Could care less about the all-star game.  Haven't paid attention to that crap for a decade.  However, it sounds like there is a monumental effort going on 24/7 just to get him on the field.   That is really concerning. Remember, if it's his knees, most likely it will only get worse, not better.  The last thing I want to hear is he plays in the all-star game and aggravates the injury.

I'm more concerned about his long term health.  He has rarely been healthy, and those things generally don't get better as he gets older.  Even when he plays alot(this season)it seems there are many things that keep him from being close to 100%.  He is great defensively, but has become a liability on offense, and I'm sure that is mostly due to his injuries.

He's 30% better than the average hitter at the plate in MLB. How do you define that as a liability?

Your position the Twins trainers, medical staff and coaching staff have determined it would be best to risk the health of a player who just signed a very big and very long term contract doesn't make a lot of sense. It would be reckless and negligent to operate like that, in addition to it being out of the character for the franchise.

A 24hr job to be on the field doesn't mean he walks in for 21hrs of treatment at the hospital. I'm sure Buxton has to follow an annoying and detailed protocol to maximize the chance he can play. It probably involves things like diet, rest, activity restrictions, medication, icing and other treatments that have to be followed in a timely manner. That's a 24hr process. If his knee flares up, he doesn't play. If he feels good and is able to prove it in a workout, he does play.

7 hours ago, DJL44 said:

This is a situation screaming out for a bunt down the 3B line. Get the runner home.

That would make too much sense.