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  • Taking a Deeper Dive into Miguel Sano's Plate Discipline


    Ted Schwerzler

    Roughly a week ago the discussion surrounding Miguel Sano was in relation to his strikeouts. Now operating at a 39.2% strikeout rate, the trips back to the dugouts remain inconsequential to me. The issue with his production profile revolves almost entirely on plate discipline. I touched on this in passing during that piece, but there’s a more nuanced conversation to be had here.

    Image courtesy of © Jesse Johnson-USA TODAY Sports

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    During the Twins 17-inning affair with the Boston Red Sox, Sano went 0-for-7 with five strikeouts. He came up in multiple big spots and simply couldn’t put the ball in play. It’s one thing to be fanning on pitches in the upper 90’s, but he was swinging through fastballs topping out below 95 mph. For a guy like Sano, bat speed isn’t the issue, but he certainly could be playing a literal guessing game.

    First the good news. Although Sano’s strikeout rate is fourth highest in the majors among players with at least 100 plate appearances, he also owns the sixth best hard-hit rate (52.0%) in baseball. Because he doesn’t put the baseball on the ground, and crushes it when he makes contact, the 30.4% HR/FB rate is 11th in the majors. From this we can deduce that when the ball is put in play, good things happen.

    Now the bad news. Steadily climbing since his debut season, Sano’s 33.7% chase rate is a career worst and his 19.2% whiff rate follows suit. With that mix you get an obvious combination detrimental to contact rates, resulting in just a 62.5% output. To summarize this bit of information we can understand that Miguel is expanding the zone, giving himself less opportunity to hit the ball hard, and finding himself behind in counts more frequently.

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    As Sano has shown a willingness to expand, chase, and guess through at-bats, opposing pitchers have exposed him in the most inopportune moments. Coming up in high leverage situations, he’s got a .167/.250/.333 slash line across 20 plate appearances. That’s certainly a small sample size, but the reality is a lack of plate discipline is most exposed when pitchers need to exploit batter tendencies attempting to work around damage.

    There are two trains of thought here that can provide some reason for hope. One is that Sano went without spring training and is still settling in. Teammate Marwin Gonzalez started with a .191/.262/.277 slash line across his first 100+ plate appearances this season. Sano is 103 PA in and owns a .225/.314/.539 slash line. Since settling in Marwin has been among the Twins best hitters, so once Sano gets acclimated an uptick may be coming.

    Another avenue to venture down is the sustainability of a split like this. Three true outcomes players exist, but many of them fail to produce at a high level for any significant amount of time. Joey Gallo has certainly transformed himself into one of the best players in the game, and he’s done that by being something like the 100th percentile of Miguel Sano. Gallo’s 57.9% hard hit rate is the best in baseball while his 43.6% HR/FB mark is second. He’s putting up both of those outcomes alongside a 35.5 K%, just three spots behind Sano.

    So, what’s the difference then?

    The third outcome for Gallo, walk rate, is nearly double that (19.6%) of Sano’s (11.8%). He whiffs plenty at 15.1% (down 3% from 2018), and he actually makes contact less often (61.8%), but he chases significantly less. The Rangers star swings out of the zone just 22.8% of the time (10% drop from 2018). By forcing pitchers into the zone, he’s barreling hittable pitches with a powerful swing almost every time the two objects connect. Joey Gallo forces the opposing hurler to pitch to him, while Miguel Sano allows the opponent simply to throw.

    James Rowson has a moldable piece of clay in front of him, and if the weight loss is any indication, this is the first time in a while that Sano may be a willing student. Figuring out how to get rid the check swings, hold off on the offerings well out of the zone, and commit every time the bat goes through the zone is an absolute must. Sano’s best season came with a 25.2% chase rate and a 15.7% whiff rate. He’s not far from those benchmarks, but it will take work and focus to get there.

    Once again, I’m willing to suggest I could care less that Miguel Sano strikes out. In and of itself, the strikeout is no worse than any other out. What I do care about is that a guy whose entire value is derived from plate production, figures out how to read pitches, work counts, and commit to attacking the ball with a swing destined to produce results.

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    “Plate discipline” is not Sano’s problem.

    Contact is the problem.

    Mostly agreed, though I'd put pitch recognition on the list over plate discipline. Miguel is getting fooled by some pretty terrible pitches right now.

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    Sano has a RC+ of 113 and full-season WAR pace of ~3.5. He's not going to be sent down, and shouldn't be. 

    This is a case where looking at the overall numbers doesn't really indicate what's happening today.

     

    Sano's first ten games of the season:

    46 PA, 16 SO, .237/.348/.711/1.058

     

    Sano's 11-20th games of the season:

    40 PA, 15 SO, .243/.300/.432/.732

     

    Sano's 21-26th games of the season:

    26 PA, 16 SO, .130/.231/.391/.622

     

    That's not a slump, that's a massive hole in approach that is being exploited by pitchers.

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    This is a case where looking at the overall numbers doesn't really indicate what's happening today.

     

    Sano's first ten games of the season:

    46 PA, 16 SO, .237/.348/.711/1.058

     

    Sano's 11-20th games of the season:

    40 PA, 15 SO, .243/.300/.432/.732

     

    Sano's 21-26th games of the season:

    26 PA, 16 SO, .130/.231/.391/.622

     

    That's not a slump, that's a massive hole in approach that is being exploited by pitchers.

     

    Sano has over 1700 PAs in his career. There's no validity to breaking out minuscule sample sizes in that manner. You could play games like this with basically every player and argue that their opponents figured them out, due to a stretch of 5 games.

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    Sano has over 1700 PAs in his career. There's no validity to breaking out minuscule sample sizes in that manner. You could play games like this with basically every player and argue that their opponents figured them out, due to a stretch of 5 games.

    You're right, Sano has 1700 career PAs. And in the last 411 of them (2018-present), he has struck out 162 times while posting a .721 OPS.

     

    This isn't a new problem.

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    And it shouldn't be forgotten that Sano did this in 2018 as well. He had a 1.006 OPS through his first eight games before plunging to a .739 OPS by the end of April.

     

    So, periodically pitchers just forget that they don't need to throw him strikes? Why would he ever have a hot streak again, in his career? Are you predicting that he won't?

     

    I'll be happy to bet on his rest-of-season OPS, with an over-under of .721.

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    So, periodically pitchers just forget that they don't need to throw him strikes? Why would he ever have a hot streak again, in his career? Are you predicting that he won't?

     

    I'll be happy to bet on his rest-of-season OPS, with an over-under of .721.

    Go ahead, keep ignoring that a guy is striking out in 2/3rds of his plate appearances because that’s obviously not a big deal, nor is it something we’ve seen from Sano in the past as he goes into a long tailspin.
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    Go ahead, keep ignoring that a guy is striking out in 2/3rds of his plate appearances because that’s obviously not a big deal, nor is it something we’ve seen from Sano in the past as he goes into a long tailspin.

     

    I'm equally aware of his numbers as you are, so I'm not "ignoring" them. The difference is that I understand how numbers vary widely over small sample sizes. Obviously Sano strikes out a lot in general, and so there will always be periods where he strikes out even more than 'a lot.'

     

    What you're not doing is making any predictions for the rest of the year. What do you project his wOBA to be, RoS? What does it mean, in terms of actual production, for Sano to be in a "long tailspin"?

     

    Those aren't rhetorical questions. If anyone is seriously thinking that Sano should be sent down, they should be able to project his future performance in comparison to the alternatives. Otherwise it's noise, not informed opinion.

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    I'm equally aware of his numbers as you are, so I'm not "ignoring" them. The difference is that I understand how numbers vary widely over small sample sizes. Obviously Sano strikes out a lot in general, and so there will always be periods where he strikes out even more than 'a lot.'

     

    What you're not doing is making any predictions for the rest of the year. What do you project his wOBA to be, RoS? What does it mean, in terms of actual production, for Sano to be in a "long tailspin"?

     

    Those aren't rhetorical questions. If anyone is seriously thinking that Sano should be sent down, they should be able to project his future performance in comparison to the alternatives. Otherwise it's noise, not informed opinion.

    I don't think Sano should be sent down right now because Gonzalez is on the IL.

     

    But if Marwin gets back and Sano has posted another handful of games with a K rate over 50%, he should probably be sent down because that means there is something terribly wrong with his approach, swing, mental state, or all of the above. Guys can't continue to produce when they're missing the ball that often.

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    I don't think Sano should be sent down right now because Gonzalez is on the IL.

     

    But if Marwin gets back and Sano has posted another handful of games with a K rate over 50%, he should probably be sent down because that means there is something terribly wrong with his approach, swing, mental state, or all of the above. Guys can't continue to produce when they're missing the ball that often.

     

    Why are you avoiding any mention of what actual numbers you expect from him over the rest of the year? I don't understand what's so difficult about it.

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    This is a case where looking at the overall numbers doesn't really indicate what's happening today.

     

    Sano's first ten games of the season:

    46 PA, 16 SO, .237/.348/.711/1.058

     

    Sano's 11-20th games of the season:

    40 PA, 15 SO, .243/.300/.432/.732

     

    Sano's 21-26th games of the season:

    26 PA, 16 SO, .130/.231/.391/.622

     

    That's not a slump, that's a massive hole in approach that is being exploited by pitchers.

    Last 3PA: 1SO, 667/667/2.667/3.333

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    Why are you avoiding any mention of what actual numbers you expect from him over the rest of the year? I don't understand what's so difficult about it.

    Because it's a bad question to ask, one that depends on whether Sano adjusts to how pitchers are exploiting his swing right now. If Sano continues down the road he's been on for the past few weeks, he'll be demoted. If he improves, then everything is probably just fine.

     

    The question is whether Sano can adjust, not what OPS he'll produce in 2019. And I don't know the answer to that question and neither do you.

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    Because it's a bad question to ask, one that depends on whether Sano adjusts to how pitchers are exploiting his swing right now. If Sano continues down the road he's been on for the past few weeks, he'll be demoted. If he improves, then everything is probably just fine.

     

    The question is whether Sano can adjust, not what OPS he'll produce in 2019. And I don't know the answer to that question and neither do you.

     

    Well I can't literally see the future, no one can. Clubs have to do their best to determine what to expect from their players. That's what drives player personnel decisions . . . promotions, demotions, trades, signings, everything. 

     

    Baseball is a game of constant adjustments, for both hitters and pitchers. Sano is no exception to that. He's not going to be demoted, end of story. 

     

    I project a RoS RC+ of Sano of 115. 

     

    I'm not afraid to put my expectations out there, because they are based on actual data, rather than a basically emotional response to someone striking out a lot for a week.

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    I'm not afraid to put my expectations out there, because they are based on actual data, rather than a basically emotional response to someone striking out a lot for a week.

    Yeah, my response is emotional. Try to tone down the arrogance a bit.

     

    Strikeouts are not the actual problem but they're a corollary issue that shows there's a problem. And swinging and missing the ball constantly is not like running into a patch of bad luck and posting a .400 OPS for a couple of weeks while slumping; it's indicative of a large issue under the surface.

     

    It's like a starting pitcher running out there for three consecutive starts while walking a batter an inning but posting a 4.00 ERA. Sure, the end result looks... okay... but there's obviously something wrong in that situation and it should not be ignored just because the surface stats show mediocre results.

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    Yeah, my response is emotional. Try to tone down the arrogance a bit.

     

    Strikeouts are not the actual problem but they're a corollary issue that shows there's a problem. And swinging and missing the ball constantly is not like running into a patch of bad luck and posting a .400 OPS for a couple of weeks while slumping; it's indicative of a large issue under the surface.

     

    It's like a starting pitcher running out there for three consecutive starts while walking a batter an inning but posting a 4.00 ERA. Sure, the end result looks... okay... but there's obviously something wrong in that situation and it should not be ignored just because the surface stats show mediocre results.

     

    Your response isn't based on meaningful data or analysis, so what else could it be based on? Call it 'visceral' if that suits you better.

     

    I put my predictions out there. We won't be able to compare later since you won't provide your own.  

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    Your response isn't based on meaningful data or analysis, so what else could it be based on? Call it 'visceral' if that suits you better.

     

    I put my predictions out there. We won't be able to compare later since you won't provide your own.

    Because I’m not concerned about the performance numbers, I’m concerned about the approach that is leading to diminished performance numbers.

     

    I care about the disease, not the symptoms. Fix the disease and the symptoms follow.

     

    This isn’t a contest where we guess how many jelly beans are in the jar and the closest guess gets a stuffed bear.

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    This isn’t a contest where we guess how many jelly beans are in the jar and the closest guess gets a stuffed bear.

     

    No, it's a contest to see who could better interpret the numbers and observations associated with this topic. You say Sano is in a tailspin, I say he'll be fine. You say his approach won't work, I say his approach will allow him to be a decent MLB starting 3rd baseman.

     

    I get that you're trying to have it both ways, so that you can't be wrong in hindsight - either Sano really does crash, in which case you were correct, or he gets back on track, and you say it's because he changed his approach just like you said he should.

     

    Sano's approach is only a problem if it means that he stinks the rest of the year. One bad week is irrelevant. So your 'concerns' are likewise irrelevant unless you think his approach will prevent him from being valuable going forward. But you won't actually predict that, because you know there's a strong likelihood he will be fine, but don't want to contradict your dire assessment.

    Edited by drivlikejehu
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    Ugh. Whatever. If you bothered to understand my posting history, I *never* predict numbers because it’s a guessing game based on a myriad of factors that are largely unpredictable (health being a key factor).

     

    If you want to shout numbers back and forth at a person, you barked up the wrong tree and it has nothing to do with me wanting to have it both ways.

     

    Also, stop trying to define on your terms how I get to have a conversation on this forum.

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    Also, stop trying to define on your terms how I get to have a conversation on this forum.

     

    I didn't. Converse however you like. But other posters should be allowed to apply logical reasoning to your statements. If you say 'X player should be demoted,' but then don't provide objective support for that statement, others may disagree with you and provide reasons why your statement is incorrect. 

     

    Numbers are often just a medium for expressing a concept. For instance, 'X player should not be demoted because they can reasonably be expected to do Y.' In that case, the quantity 'Y' is only a shorthand for a general concept, e.g., 'X player is pretty decent, let's keep him around.'

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    Numbers are fine but they don’t tell why something happened. Look at what Boston did to Sano during that series; they threw him breaking balls down and then went high fastball and Sano could not come close to making contact with the ball. Rinse, repeat.

     

    As a result, he struck out around 75% of the time in that series.

     

    That is not a problem that will go away, especially once teams have a little time to soak in that film and adapt to what Boston did with frightening success.

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    It was ugly to watch, I agree. But the fact is that Sano has had brutal series before, as do all players. He has had periods of elevated strikeouts before.

     

    Sano has adjusted before, many times, usually not in a way we can really observe. Otherwise his MLB career would already be over.

     

    I do think there will come a day when his approach won't work. I'm not interested in the Twins having him under contract for his early 30s. But in the here and now, his strengths are most likely sufficient to off-set the weaknesses.

     

    His former high prospect status and scorching debut raised expectations that I think are impacting how fans view Sano today. Gleeman has done a good job talking about this. It's not what we hoped for, but Sano can still provide solid value to this club.

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    Don't tell that to the some of the people who cover this team closely, they'll just tell you that you don't know enough baseball or something.  Sano is just fine and fans are unjustly critical because he's polarizing.  

     

    I definitely understand the level-headed approach and just trying to ride out this slump, but this appears more than just a slump.  Don't get me wrong, I hope I'm wrong. 

    Edited by Dakota15
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    .761 OPS now. Seems to go down by 100 points every week it's been pitched that strikeouts aren't a problem.

    Well, the strikeouts are an effect of the problem. The problem is contact and how easy it has become to pitch around the holes in Sano's swing.

     

    Which is why I've been concerned about Sano since his MiLB rehab. The contact was never there, as evidenced by the strikeouts. When he got to MLB, he had a bit of a grace period but was still missing the ball way too often. It was bound to catch up to him sooner or later; I only hoped it wouldn't get this bad.

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    Well, the strikeouts are an effect of the problem. The problem is contact and how easy it has become to pitch around the holes in Sano's swing.

     

    Which is why I've been concerned about Sano since his MiLB rehab. The contact was never there, as evidenced by the strikeouts. When he got to MLB, he had a bit of a grace period but was still missing the ball way too often. It was bound to catch up to him sooner or later; I only hoped it wouldn't get this bad.

    It's caught up to him. Once Marwin is back, the corresponding move should be sending Sano to Rochester. Arraez IMO has earned another 40-50 PAs over Sano.

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    I wonder if he needs glasses. But that is so simplistic, I’m sure that’s already been examined. It’s like he knows what to swing at and not, but just isn’t connecting and hitting. I mean he’s not just swinging at everything, so what is it? As soon as Gonzalez and/or Adrianza are ready, I think it’s time to send Miguel to Rochester.

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    In and of itself, the strikeout is no worse than any other out.

     

    When the bases are loaded with 1 out, a strikeout is the worst out. When there's a man on 3rd with 1 out, a strikeout is worse than most other outs. I can go on and on. Strikeouts are indeed worse than other outs, in many cases.

     

    You have to take into account that the Twins were cruising WITHOUT Sano this year. The Twins also will have other options at 3rd: Gonzalez, Astudillo, Adrianza and even Arraez.

     

    This is not a season where the Twins can just let a guy go and figure things out for a season while we rebuild. This is a team that needs to win the division and can realistically compete for a WS title.

     

    Sano is a beloved player by many of us and we all want him to succeed. But we can't all just sit around and be Pollyannas about everything just because he's wearing a Twins jersey. He's got issues and striking out 40% of the time shows it.

     

     

     

     

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