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  • Second-Guess Galore


    Seth Stohs

    On Wednesday night, World Series Game 7 was played in Cleveland. And what a game it was. I’m biased as a Twins fans into saying that the 1991 World Series was the greatest of all-time. The 2016 Game 7 was right up there. There were big plays, big hits, big defensive plays. There was good pitching. There were questionable calls by umpires, and by the managers. The game had everything.

    Congratulations to the Chicago Cubs on their World Series championship.

    Image courtesy of Ken Blaze, USA Today

    Twins Video

    As with any baseball game, there are usually a series of plays, calls or decisions that can affect the final outcome. In the playoffs in general, and especially in a World Series Game 7 atmosphere, the second-guessing is done by millions and millions of people across the country, around the globe. Let’s be honest, social media makes it very easy.

    Frankly, second-guessing (or first-guessing, if you prefer) is part of the allure of baseball. It’s a game that so many played when they were young. It’s a game that doesn’t appear to be anywhere near as hard as it is. It’s a game in which everyone can be questioned. It’s part of what makes Twins Daily successful. Every decision a GM makes can be argued and discussed. A manager’s lineup construction or in-game tendencies can be questioned. Pitcher-catcher pitch-selection is always up for debate.

    Generally speaking, I try not to take any real hard stands on those types of things. I may not understand, but I’d say with certainty that the person making the decision (GM, manager, player) did so with a lot more information at his fingertips than I would have had.

    The World Series provided plenty of opportunity for second guessing. Here are just some examples.

    It has been well over a decade since a starting pitcher has thrown games 1, 4 and 7 of the World Series. The game has changed and teams seem to prefer to use their pitchers on more rest rather than pitch their starters on short rest. Terry Francona chose to go with a three-man starting staff in the World Series (Corey Kluber, Trevor Bauer, Josh Tomlin) rather than go with a fourth starter. Meanwhile, Maddon’s Cubs rotation included Jon Lester, Jake Arrieta, Kyle Hendricks and John Lackey.

    To be fair to Francona, he’s had to piece things together from a starting pitcher standpoint throughout the playoffs. He hasn’t been able to use two of his best starters, Carlos Carrasco and Danny Salazar, in that role. He used Ryan Merritt for one game in the ALCS.

    What will some fans may think? The game has changed. Starters don’t do this, and the numbers generally back up the fact that when a pitcher works on short-rest, the numbers aren’t as good. (What I was thinking? When Cleveland had a 3-1 series lead - after Kluber pitched well on short-rest in Game 4 - I may have gone back to Merritt to start Game 5. Bauer hasn’t been on - even when he wasn’t bleeding out - this postseason, and Tomlin wasn’t very good most of the year. I would have started Bauer in Game 6 with Tomlin in relief, if necessary. But I have no problem with going back to Kluber for Game 7.)

    What was Francona is thinking? He’s thinking that his starter only needs to give him five innings before he’ll start going to his dominant bullpen of Brian Shaw, Andrew Miller and Cody Allen. In doing so, he is able to limit the number of pitches that his starter throws in each game and cumulatively.

    In Game 7, Cubs starter Kyle Hendricks - who is the favorite to win the NL Cy Young Award this year - gave up one run over 4 ⅔ innings. He issued a walk - that should have been a strikeout if not for a missed strike call - and Joe Maddon removed him from the game. Hendricks isn’t dominant. He’s a pitcher in the Brad Radke mold. But Hendricks was pitching well.

    Jon Lester, who started Game 5, warmed up in the bullpen. For a long time. With Jason Kipnis coming up, Maddon went to Lester. How it panned out isn’t as important as the process (for this discussion, at least, obviously the results are all that matter in a Game 7 situation) for our discussion. Kipnis nubbed a ball down the third base line. David Ross, who came into the game when Lester did (replacing Willson Contreras), threw to first and it got away, allowing runners to go to 2nd and 3rd. Lester then bounced a slider that hit off of Ross’s helmet and toward the 1B dugout, far enough that two runs scored on it. In the moment, it didn’t look like the decision would pay off. (To make it more interesting, Ross hit a solo home run to dead center off of Andrew Miller to bump the Cubs lead back up to 6-3. Lester settled down and got out of the 5th inning. He worked scoreless 6th and 7th frames and got two outs in the 8th as well.)

    What are fans are thinking? Hendricks is pitching well, and he’s had a good year. We don’t care about pitcher wins, the stat, but it’s hard not to feel bad for Hendricks who deserved better.

    What’s Maddon’s thinking? This is Hendrick’s third time through the lineup. I’ve got Lester, who has been warming up a long time. If I don’t go to him now, he’ll have thrown too many pitches in the bullpen and won’t be available. In the end, Maddon’s job is to use information he has to make the best decision with the goal of winning that one game.

    And then the big one…

    In Game 6, the Cubs had a big lead in the 7th inning. Joe Maddon decided to bring Aroldis Chapman into the game. He got out of a situation, but then despite the Cubs adding on more runs, Chapman remained in the game.

    What do many fans think? Chapman isn’t really a multiple inning guy and what if he’s needed in an actually close game in Game 7? Will he be available to pitch?

    What was Maddon thinking? First and foremost, he’s thinking win Game 6. If they don’t do that, there is no Game 7. Win Game 6 and worry about Game 7 when it comes.

    The Result - Clearly Chapman was not himself in Game 7. Sure, he hit 101 and 102 a couple of times, but it wasn’t the same. He wasn’t as sharp. He looked tired. He gave up a two-run, game-tying home run to Rajai Davis. Then again, he got the final out of the eighth and worked a perfect ninth inning.

    Was it completely because of his excessive usage the night before? It’s impossible to say. It is something that Joe Maddon will likely ask himself over and over again in the offseason.

    Game 7s are always great. Do you ever wonder how the 1987 or 1991 World Series might have been different if Twitter and blogs would have been around then? Let’s be honest, Twitter was still in its infancy when the Twins were last in a playoff series.

    Remember when Grady Little decided to stick with his ace, Pedro Martinez. The decision backfired. The Red Sox lost. Little was fired. Joe Maddon made several very questionable decisions in Games 6 and 7. Using Chapman for so long in a blowout. Taking Hendricks out of the game in the 5th inning for no reason. Having Javier Baez attempt a safety squeeze bunt on a full-count with a runner on third and one out?

    The decision to fire Little, in my opinion, was silly. I’m certainly not advocating for Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer to fire Maddon. I do think that the playoffs magnify everything, and Maddon made some questionable choices. And you know what… he also helped bring the Chicago Cubs their first World Series title in 108 years!

    At the end of the day (or even into the morning of the next day), we were able to witness two great baseball teams who both had long World Series droughts play an epic Game 7. We are all winners for it, even the second-guessers.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Why did I write an article that really has little or nothing to do with the Minnesota Twins? Honestly, while watching Game 7, my thought was… this type of second-guessing of a manager is so much more fun than questioning whether Paul Molitor should bring in Pat Light or Pat Dean to replace Andrew Albers with the Twins down 8-2 in the 5th inning of a mid-September game.

    I long for the days of questioning Ron Gardenhire decisions in the playoffs!

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    You lost me when you brought up cheering against Bill Murray.
    How could anyone not love Bill Murray?

     

    I find him gratingly annoying and do not enjoy his brand of comedy. Plus, I do not care how some celebrity reacts to "their" team's performance. But that's just me.

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    yeah, i dont know who 'we' would be in that sentence, but whomver it is who thought that certainly now knows no one is perfect.

    Of course, one wonders if not for his managing all season and/or in the NLDS and NLCS, if they ever get to the World Series to begin with. A small sample size in a couple playoff games doesnt negate work done in 162 game season, for players or managers. I will go ahead and give him credit for them being able to win the World Series.

    Sure, my post was a little bit of hyperbole, but there were a lot of people hyping Maddon to the max when there was a ever so slight possibility that he could have been the Twins manager.   As for the "work" of the 162 game season, the dude had it made. A loaded lineup, all 5 starting pitchers healthy all season.  They made 29,30,30,31 and 32 starts.  They traded for a great closer.  He didn't have much work to do.

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    Didn't remind me of Gardy at all, first and foremost because I was watching a World Series not the ALDS :-)  

     

    Francona is a better in-game tactician than Maddon.  The two best overall managers in the game squared off and Francona out-managed him; however, the better team won.  Even if Cleveland was fully loaded, I'm glad the best team in baseball won. They both deserved to win, but it's good to see the best team in baseball get rewarded for that awesome season..

     

    Ironically, now that the Cubs won the W Series after 108 years, the team with the longest W Series title drought is now Cleveland Indians.

    That's one of the reasons I was hoping Cleveland would win. Plus I guess I default to the AL if I don't have a horse in the race.

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    Personally, I think Francona made the bigger mistakes in game 7. The eventual winning run was an intentional walk! The last out was Michael Martinez with a career 37 OPS+. Kluber didn't strike out a single batter, struggled mightily in the fourth, yet came out to start the fifth. Bryan Shaw was hit hard but allowed to keep pitching with the game on the line (and given two extra baserunners by IBB to boot).

    Regarding Martinez making the final out, there were no position players left on the bench to pinch hit. You can make the argument that he shouldn't have been in the game in the first place but there's no way to predict it would be his spot in the lineup that would be up at the end of the game.

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    The worst decision in the series was pitching Chapman in game 6, imo. I understand why he did it, I would never have done it.

    I also understand the argument that you have to be sure to win game 6 in order for there to even be a game 7, but I think the stronger argument is that you have to have a plan for game 7 in mind while you are managing game 6. It would be interesting to hear Maddon second guessing himself after he has time to process his decisions for a while.

    Edited by spinowner
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    Cubs up 6 to 1,I believe, Hendrick narrowly missed a called strike, walks the batter and Maddon pulls him. I thought Maddon over managed that game. It didn't have to be that close. Maddon was lucky to win it, Cubs hitters bailed him out. They had 40 million viewers, most since 1991 game 7 that had 50 million, which to me is still most exciting game 7 of all time.

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    I didn't get to watch as much of the series as I would have liked, but I did try to follow it as well as I could before catching almost all of game 7. I do think there was some over management, but I think that happens a lot in the post season.

     

    I was torn as I really like both teams, and have for years. But I had to root for the loveable losers in the end, and not just for family sake, lol. I mean, come on, 108 years since the last time? You'd have to almost have a heart of stone not to be happy for the Cubs and their fans.

     

    I don't think pitching Chapman in game 6 was a mistake at all. As previously stated, there is no game 7 if you don't win game 6. But I do think it was a mistake to pitch him as long as Maddon did. And unless I'm missing something, I didn't understand not letting Lester pitch to the next batter with 2 outs and throwing well. Chapman may have still imploded and allowed that 2 run Homer, but then again, with all the work he had in game 6, maybe he has a little extra if he doesn't come in for that 3rd out an inning before.

     

    But the biggest goof of the entire series was not to have Charlie "Wild Thing" Sheen not throw out a first pitch. Would have been EPIC!

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    Regarding Martinez making the final out, there were no position players left on the bench to pinch hit. You can make the argument that he shouldn't have been in the game in the first place but there's no way to predict it would be his spot in the lineup that would be up at the end of the game.

    Martinez was brought into a tie game for a trivial upgrade defensively over Coco Crisp, when Francona knew that Martinez was his last bench player. That was silly. The Indians still needed to score to win, and putting Martinez in the lineup hurt that chance far more than he upgraded the defense over Crisp.

    Edited by spycake
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    I also understand the argument that you have to be sure to win game 6 in order for there to even be a game 7, but I think the stronger argument is that you have to have a plan for game 7 in mind while you are managing game 6. It would be interesting to hear Maddon second guessing himself after he has time to process his decisions for a while.

    maddon already admitted he should have had someone warming up in the 8th inning of game 6 to use in the 9th inning.
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    That's one of the reasons I was hoping Cleveland would win. Plus I guess I default to the AL if I don't have a horse in the race.

    I'm not sure I get what you mean? What about my post you were responding to gives a reason for wanting Cleveland to win?
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    Martinez was brought into a tie game for a trivial upgrade defensively over Coco Crisp, when Francona knew that Martinez was his last bench player. That was silly. The Indians still needed to score to win, and putting Martinez in the lineup hurt that chance far more than he upgraded the defense over Crisp.

     

    I agree with this, that was probably the worst move of the night.

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    Really of all the moves Maddon made the only one I would 2nd guess is Chapman's usage in game 6.  

     

    Pulling Hendrick makes sense if he has a gut feeling that he could implode at any moment.  (I know a bad call against a Twins pitcher in a key situation usually resulted in the next hitter immediately hitting a bomb).  So moving from Hendrick to Lester was alright in my mind.  Then an errant throw and a fluky 2 run wild pitch.  

     

    The safety squeeze call was actually a good one in my opinion.  Baez seems to have that Buxton quality of chasing strike three breaking balls out of the zone and getting him to square up at least sets him up to hopefully putting ball into play.  It just didn't work. 

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    I'm not sure I get what you mean? What about my post you were responding to gives a reason for wanting Cleveland to win?

    The very last part, about Cleveland having the second-longest drought (and the longest drought in the AL). My apologies for not being more clear.

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    The very last part, about Cleveland having the second-longest drought (and the longest drought in the AL). My apologies for not being more clear.

    no apology needed.  I just couldn't see the correlation.  Thanks for explaining it.

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    I agree with what you have said about game six, I don't think it was a mistake to use Chapman in that game because of what you said - this was just game six. Who knows, game seven the next day could have gotten rained out. I get your point about Hendricks going through the order for the third time but I still don't understand that move - he was dominating, he was on regular rest and he took him out to bring in a starting pitcher who is on short rest. Also, I thought it was entertaining how the announcers were saying that Maddon had told them before the game he didn't want to bring in Lester in the middle of an inning...and then he brought him in the middle of an inning. I was wondering if Maddon had intentionally said that - I always love it when they ask managers what their strategy is going to be before the game. Yeah, like he's going to tell the entire viewing audience.  :)

     

    A lot has been written about how the Cubs won the World Series but the Indians did also blow a 3-1 series lead and they had the last two games at home. But given the state of their pitching (heck, they didn't even really have a starting pitcher for one of their playoff games) I guess it wasn't too surprising. In this era in baseball I didn't really expect Kluber to be able to pitch effectively three times in a seven game series. 

     

    Yeah, I'm biased because I'm a Twins fan and I still think game seven in 1991 was the ultimate but game seven this year was almost as epic. Maybe this is elementary but it reminded how much the game is the same whether you're watching a town ball game or extra innings in the seventh game of the World Series. When Edwards walked the batter in the bottom of the 10th to bring the tying run to the plate I thought how irritating it is when a pitcher starts walking guys to bring the tying run to the plate! What a great World Series. 

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