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  • Second-Guess Galore


    Seth Stohs

    On Wednesday night, World Series Game 7 was played in Cleveland. And what a game it was. I’m biased as a Twins fans into saying that the 1991 World Series was the greatest of all-time. The 2016 Game 7 was right up there. There were big plays, big hits, big defensive plays. There was good pitching. There were questionable calls by umpires, and by the managers. The game had everything.

    Congratulations to the Chicago Cubs on their World Series championship.

    Image courtesy of Ken Blaze, USA Today

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    As with any baseball game, there are usually a series of plays, calls or decisions that can affect the final outcome. In the playoffs in general, and especially in a World Series Game 7 atmosphere, the second-guessing is done by millions and millions of people across the country, around the globe. Let’s be honest, social media makes it very easy.

    Frankly, second-guessing (or first-guessing, if you prefer) is part of the allure of baseball. It’s a game that so many played when they were young. It’s a game that doesn’t appear to be anywhere near as hard as it is. It’s a game in which everyone can be questioned. It’s part of what makes Twins Daily successful. Every decision a GM makes can be argued and discussed. A manager’s lineup construction or in-game tendencies can be questioned. Pitcher-catcher pitch-selection is always up for debate.

    Generally speaking, I try not to take any real hard stands on those types of things. I may not understand, but I’d say with certainty that the person making the decision (GM, manager, player) did so with a lot more information at his fingertips than I would have had.

    The World Series provided plenty of opportunity for second guessing. Here are just some examples.

    It has been well over a decade since a starting pitcher has thrown games 1, 4 and 7 of the World Series. The game has changed and teams seem to prefer to use their pitchers on more rest rather than pitch their starters on short rest. Terry Francona chose to go with a three-man starting staff in the World Series (Corey Kluber, Trevor Bauer, Josh Tomlin) rather than go with a fourth starter. Meanwhile, Maddon’s Cubs rotation included Jon Lester, Jake Arrieta, Kyle Hendricks and John Lackey.

    To be fair to Francona, he’s had to piece things together from a starting pitcher standpoint throughout the playoffs. He hasn’t been able to use two of his best starters, Carlos Carrasco and Danny Salazar, in that role. He used Ryan Merritt for one game in the ALCS.

    What will some fans may think? The game has changed. Starters don’t do this, and the numbers generally back up the fact that when a pitcher works on short-rest, the numbers aren’t as good. (What I was thinking? When Cleveland had a 3-1 series lead - after Kluber pitched well on short-rest in Game 4 - I may have gone back to Merritt to start Game 5. Bauer hasn’t been on - even when he wasn’t bleeding out - this postseason, and Tomlin wasn’t very good most of the year. I would have started Bauer in Game 6 with Tomlin in relief, if necessary. But I have no problem with going back to Kluber for Game 7.)

    What was Francona is thinking? He’s thinking that his starter only needs to give him five innings before he’ll start going to his dominant bullpen of Brian Shaw, Andrew Miller and Cody Allen. In doing so, he is able to limit the number of pitches that his starter throws in each game and cumulatively.

    In Game 7, Cubs starter Kyle Hendricks - who is the favorite to win the NL Cy Young Award this year - gave up one run over 4 ⅔ innings. He issued a walk - that should have been a strikeout if not for a missed strike call - and Joe Maddon removed him from the game. Hendricks isn’t dominant. He’s a pitcher in the Brad Radke mold. But Hendricks was pitching well.

    Jon Lester, who started Game 5, warmed up in the bullpen. For a long time. With Jason Kipnis coming up, Maddon went to Lester. How it panned out isn’t as important as the process (for this discussion, at least, obviously the results are all that matter in a Game 7 situation) for our discussion. Kipnis nubbed a ball down the third base line. David Ross, who came into the game when Lester did (replacing Willson Contreras), threw to first and it got away, allowing runners to go to 2nd and 3rd. Lester then bounced a slider that hit off of Ross’s helmet and toward the 1B dugout, far enough that two runs scored on it. In the moment, it didn’t look like the decision would pay off. (To make it more interesting, Ross hit a solo home run to dead center off of Andrew Miller to bump the Cubs lead back up to 6-3. Lester settled down and got out of the 5th inning. He worked scoreless 6th and 7th frames and got two outs in the 8th as well.)

    What are fans are thinking? Hendricks is pitching well, and he’s had a good year. We don’t care about pitcher wins, the stat, but it’s hard not to feel bad for Hendricks who deserved better.

    What’s Maddon’s thinking? This is Hendrick’s third time through the lineup. I’ve got Lester, who has been warming up a long time. If I don’t go to him now, he’ll have thrown too many pitches in the bullpen and won’t be available. In the end, Maddon’s job is to use information he has to make the best decision with the goal of winning that one game.

    And then the big one…

    In Game 6, the Cubs had a big lead in the 7th inning. Joe Maddon decided to bring Aroldis Chapman into the game. He got out of a situation, but then despite the Cubs adding on more runs, Chapman remained in the game.

    What do many fans think? Chapman isn’t really a multiple inning guy and what if he’s needed in an actually close game in Game 7? Will he be available to pitch?

    What was Maddon thinking? First and foremost, he’s thinking win Game 6. If they don’t do that, there is no Game 7. Win Game 6 and worry about Game 7 when it comes.

    The Result - Clearly Chapman was not himself in Game 7. Sure, he hit 101 and 102 a couple of times, but it wasn’t the same. He wasn’t as sharp. He looked tired. He gave up a two-run, game-tying home run to Rajai Davis. Then again, he got the final out of the eighth and worked a perfect ninth inning.

    Was it completely because of his excessive usage the night before? It’s impossible to say. It is something that Joe Maddon will likely ask himself over and over again in the offseason.

    Game 7s are always great. Do you ever wonder how the 1987 or 1991 World Series might have been different if Twitter and blogs would have been around then? Let’s be honest, Twitter was still in its infancy when the Twins were last in a playoff series.

    Remember when Grady Little decided to stick with his ace, Pedro Martinez. The decision backfired. The Red Sox lost. Little was fired. Joe Maddon made several very questionable decisions in Games 6 and 7. Using Chapman for so long in a blowout. Taking Hendricks out of the game in the 5th inning for no reason. Having Javier Baez attempt a safety squeeze bunt on a full-count with a runner on third and one out?

    The decision to fire Little, in my opinion, was silly. I’m certainly not advocating for Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer to fire Maddon. I do think that the playoffs magnify everything, and Maddon made some questionable choices. And you know what… he also helped bring the Chicago Cubs their first World Series title in 108 years!

    At the end of the day (or even into the morning of the next day), we were able to witness two great baseball teams who both had long World Series droughts play an epic Game 7. We are all winners for it, even the second-guessers.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Why did I write an article that really has little or nothing to do with the Minnesota Twins? Honestly, while watching Game 7, my thought was… this type of second-guessing of a manager is so much more fun than questioning whether Paul Molitor should bring in Pat Light or Pat Dean to replace Andrew Albers with the Twins down 8-2 in the 5th inning of a mid-September game.

    I long for the days of questioning Ron Gardenhire decisions in the playoffs!

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    I came onto TD this morning to read some baseball that WASN'T Cubs related. The national media's coverage of the Cubs was just over the top and quite tiresome.

     

    I watched the entire Series (not an easy chore when you have to listen to Joe Buck) and am wondering if anyone else is thinking the same things:

     

    1. A healthy Indians team would have won it in Wrigley.

     

    2. Maddon over managed. I am tempted to say that his team's talent overcame some of the moves he made. His made me kinda felt like I was watching Gardy manage in the postseason.

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    2. Maddon over managed. I am tempted to say that his team's talent overcame some of the moves he made. His made me kinda felt like I was watching Gardy manage in the postseason.

    Didn't remind me of Gardy at all, first and foremost because I was watching a World Series not the ALDS :-)  

     

    Francona is a better in-game tactician than Maddon.  The two best overall managers in the game squared off and Francona out-managed him; however, the better team won.  Even if Cleveland was fully loaded, I'm glad the best team in baseball won. They both deserved to win, but it's good to see the best team in baseball get rewarded for that awesome season..

     

    Ironically, now that the Cubs won the W Series after 108 years, the team with the longest W Series title drought is now Cleveland Indians.

    Edited by jimmer
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    2. Maddon over managed. I am tempted to say that his team's talent overcame some of the moves he made. His made me kinda felt like I was watching Gardy manage in the postseason.

     

    I was thinking the same thing.

     

    Actually, I was thinking that much of the series was over managed. But particularly Maddon. Taking Hendricks out early. Pitching Chapman in a 7-2 win ...

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    I agree with about everything here especially the use of Chapman in game 6 and not letting Hendricks pitch further last night.Francona was the better manager however I wonder why he didn't start Salazar in game 5 with a 3 to 1 advantage which would've given the other starters another day of rest. I think Kluber was tired last night as well. I loved the commentary from Smoltz. Overall a great series. I can't wait for next season.

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    Maybe we can get over the idea that Maddon is some all knowing guru who never makes mistakes. The Cubs won despite his managing, not because of it.

    yeah, i dont know who 'we' would be in that sentence, but whomver it is who thought that certainly now knows no one is perfect.

     

    Of course, one wonders if not for his managing all season and/or in the NLDS and NLCS, if they ever get to the World Series to begin with. A small sample size in a couple playoff games doesnt negate work done in 162 game season, for players or managers. I will go ahead and give him credit for them being able to win the World Series.

    Edited by jimmer
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    I agree with about everything here especially the use of Chapman in game 6 and not letting Hendricks pitch further last night.Francona was the better manager however I wonder why he didn't start Salazar in game 5 with a 3 to 1 advantage which would've given the other starters another day of rest. I think Kluber was tired last night as well. I loved the commentary from Smoltz. Overall a great series. I can't wait for next season.

    I enjoyed the commentary too.. Whenever he was able to get a word in... The broadcast booth was as balanced as a game called by Harry Doyle and Monte from Major League IMO. 

    http://www.foxsports.com/content/dam/fsdigital/RSN/South/2015/02/17/QUOTES-major-league-HARRYDOYLE.vnocropresize.940.529.medium.31.jpg

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    The worst decision in the series was pitching Chapman in game 6, imo. I understand why he did it, I would never have done it.

     

    It was fine to use him in the 7th for the 3rd out. He should not have come back for the 8th.

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    Big Cubs fan as my family has had season tickets since the 70s, super excited.

     

    That said, kind of sick of people saying that this Game 7 was better than 1991. Not true. The only one that comes close is 2001 and even that pales in comparison. The 8th inning of 1991 - oh man, so many crapping your pants moments.

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    Get off the straw man crap (deleted posts) and stick to the topic. I understand the need to disagree and defend, but sometimes it's best to just ignore and let it go rather than take it down a path that leads to defensive bickering.

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    There IS something about over-managing, and not trusting the guys you DO have on your roster. If you can't play them, why are they there?

     

    The big one was the third strike bunt attempt.

     

    And, of course, you have a bullpen full of relief pitchers and you think about starters doing the job instead, yet you don't have enough faith in your starter to let him throw more than 63 pitches. Geez. (Arrieta was also warming up at one point).

     

    Cleveland was the same. Short start. They used ALL their other pitchers yesterday in the loss. Yet your bullpen needs to be more than three overworked guys, plus bringing in your closer early rather than Shaw (not to mention bringing Shaw back out after a rain delay). Trust in your guys.

     

    Like the Cubs in the 10th. You have to trust that Edwards will see this as the game opportunity of a lifetime and pitch well, but not over pitch. The inute he does, turn to the situational guys. But suddenly you might have a long extra inning game and THAT is when you want a Lester, say, coming out of the pen to save the day in the end. The Indians had Bauer and looks like he was going to be a 2-3 inning guy at the least.

     

    Very over-managed. At some point, you have to trust your players. Inspirational when the Cubs held a quick meeting in the weight room during the rainout.

     

    It wasn't the greatest game ever, far from it. Too many errors. Badly over-managed by both sides. Some bad umpiring behind-the-plate. It's not a great game when you allow the other team to tie when you pretty much could be considered to have the game in the bag. What did make it great, it started all over again in the 9th inning, and was a brand new game after the rain delay...with lots and lots of tired players on the field giving their all!

    Edited by Rosterman
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    A one game sample is not 162 games.....the best pitchers pitched the most. That's good managing, not bad managing. Are you suggesting they should have pitched their less good RPs more? I am not sure what you are arguing.....

     

    The did trust their players. They trusted the best ones to be good/great. I am not sure I get what you are arguing.

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    I want to state this, and I think it came out in the article, but maybe not. 

     

    1.) I believe managers often over-manage in the playoffs.

    2.) Joe Maddon and Terry Francona are both great managers.

    3.) Maddon made some decisions that I would questions. That doesn't mean I'm smarter than him, just that we disagreed... which again, fits the second-guesser mold.

    4.) All managers will make decisions in game that fans will agree with or disagree with. It doesn't have to be - and shouldn't - always be based on certain things. They have inside information that none of us do. 

     

    5.) I think Grady Little getting fired - basically for that one decision - is crazy. 

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    I want to state this, and I think it came out in the article, but maybe not. 

     

    1.) I believe managers often over-manage in the playoffs.

    2.) Joe Maddon and Terry Francona are both great managers.

    3.) Maddon made some decisions that I would questions. That doesn't mean I'm smarter than him, just that we disagreed... which again, fits the second-guesser mold.

    4.) All managers will make decisions in game that fans will agree with or disagree with. It doesn't have to be - and shouldn't - always be based on certain things. They have inside information that none of us do. 

     

    5.) I think Grady Little getting fired - basically for that one decision - is crazy. 

     

    great post, and I thought it did come out, but great post.

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    Through the entire series, I enjoyed the differences between an NL and an AL team.  I thought about games 6 and 7 and how it would have been differently managed and played if the DH wasn't in the line-up.  Although the Cubs didn't play with a DH in the regular season, they had the better DH when in Cleveland with Schwarber who came off the DL to provide several critical at-bats and hits.

     

    I also agree that Maddon mis-managed his pitching in games 6 and 7 as many others have said.  Bringing in Chapman in game 6 was premature and not needed.  The bunt attempt with two strikes and the infield in may not have worked even if executed.  Pulling Hendricks was one batter too soon.

     

    I don't understand the Jon Lester problem with throwing to first base.  When Lindor was caught off first in game 5 and Lester couldn't throw and get the out, I would have had all runners stretch their leads on first.  Make him throw a pick-off underhanded.  Steal second at will.  

     

    Fun World Series, and still the best major sports championship.  For the players and the fans.  The fan involvement is the best!

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    I think you can defend as "not illogical" everything Maddon did.  And yet also say his team definitely overcame some bad decisions on his part to win this series.

     

    I'm sure he was a difference maker over 162 games, but in these 7 games he was a detriment.

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    Several really good articles on Fangraphs about how you can't steal at will on Lester.....

    one of the biggest reasons is that he has probably the quickest delivery to the plate. If not the quickest, then very close to it.
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    I was willing to commit the ultimate blasphemy and say that this game was "better" than the 1991 Game 7, at least in terms of more twists and turns.  Perhaps I was saying it to comfort my Cleveland-fan friends...But having Smoltz around was just perfect.  I also think the "curse" and "drought" era is over--if in the last 13 years, the Red Sox, White Sox, and Cubs have won it all, the Indians' year is not far behind (of course I won't be pulling for them once the regular season starts).   

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    Personally, I think Francona made the bigger mistakes in game 7. The eventual winning run was an intentional walk! The last out was Michael Martinez with a career 37 OPS+. Kluber didn't strike out a single batter, struggled mightily in the fourth, yet came out to start the fifth. Bryan Shaw was hit hard but allowed to keep pitching with the game on the line (and given two extra baserunners by IBB to boot).

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    I have long felt Maddon was the most overrated manager in the game. It is my opinion that he does most every in-game move to try and outsmart the other manager. In my opinion he has made some really awful mistakes such as basically every pitching move to remove his starter in any game, his usage of Chapman, and his lineups.

     

    Of course, I look at him as a smug jackass that thinks he is smarter than everyone so I am not unbiased and probably have an unwarranted vendetta against him.

     

    I agree, the Cubs won in spite of him.

     

    I went back and forth between who I was rooting for all series long. Every time they showed Lebron I rooted for the Cubs. Then they showed Bill Murray and I switched back to Cleveland.

     

    And lastly, now that the Cubs have won they are no different than any other big market team that tries to buy championships every year.  There is/was nothing lovable about this team. 

     

    I also think both Boston and Toronto would have beaten the Cubs in 6, but they could not touch the magic of the Indians.

     

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    I have long felt Maddon was the most overrated manager in the game. It is my opinion that he does most every in-game move to try and outsmart the other manager. In my opinion he has made some really awful mistakes such as basically every pitching move to remove his starter in any game, his usage of Chapman, and his lineups.

     

    Of course, I look at him as a smug jackass that thinks he is smarter than everyone so I am not unbiased and probably have an unwarranted vendetta against him.

     

    I agree, the Cubs won in spite of him.

     

    I went back and forth between who I was rooting for all series long. Every time they showed Lebron I rooted for the Cubs. Then they showed Bill Murray and I switched back to Cleveland.

     

    And lastly, now that the Cubs have won they are no different than any other big market team that tries to buy championships every year. There is/was nothing lovable about this team.

     

    I also think both Boston and Toronto would have beaten the Cubs in 6, but they could not touch the magic of the Indians.

    You lost me when you brought up cheering against Bill Murray.

    How could anyone not love Bill Murray?

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