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    Nick Nelson

    With a four-game sweep at Target Field over the weekend, Cleveland surpassed Minnesota in the standings, knocking the Twins out of first place for the first time since early May.

    Let's be honest: this was inevitable. The Indians are plainly a better team, and in order to hang with them for the rest of the summer, the Twins are going to need to figure some things out.

    Image courtesy of Joe Nicholson, USA Today

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    Offensively, the two clubs have been equally productive. Entering Sunday's series finale, the Twins and Indians had both scored 310 runs, with nearly identical team OPS marks (.754 and .759).

    Only one offense really showed up over the past four games, however. The Indians piled up 28 runs in the sweep while the Twins managed to push only eight across. Minnesota was at the mercy of a vastly superior staff, a disadvantage that will make retaking first place an exceedingly difficult proposition.

    The formula for the Twins has pretty much gone like this: Ervin Santana, Jose Berrios, pray for rain (or lots of run support). Neither of the two top starters was available in this series and rain mostly stayed away, so the remainder of a highly unimpressive rotation took its beatings. Meanwhile, the contrast in bullpen quality was blindingly evident, as Cleveland countered ineffectual efforts from the Twins with dominance from the likes of Andrew Miller, Cody Allen and Bryan Shaw.

    Measured by Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP), the Indians rank as the best staff in the American League, and the Twins rank worst. So the lopsided outcomes are fairly unsurprising and trading places atop the division was all but inevitable. Cleveland's lead is likely to expand, too, unless the Twins can find a way to solve the hopeless patchwork comprising the back half of their rotation.

    The Contention Conundrum

    There is one school of thought that goes like this: the Twins aren't ready to compete yet, and winning in the short term should not be a primary consideration.

    I can only respond by channeling Eduardo Escobar: C'MON!

    I'm all for keeping the big picture in mind, but at the same time, the Twins are doing themselves a disservice if they don't make efforts to get the most out of this season. You cannot take for granted that you'll have another year where so many things play out right. It's easy to get caught up in the team's weaknesses after a demoralizing sweep, but let's not overlook the strengths that kept them in first place for five straight weeks.

    Miguel Sano is mashing at an elite level. Basically every other hitter is at least holding his own at the plate. Byron Buxton, one of the few who isn't, has finally been healthy and is changing games with his defense. Jose Berrios is fulfilling his potential before our very eyes. Ervin Santana has been one of the league's best starters. Brandon Kintzler has, somehow, been one of the its most effective closers.

    Cleveland is good, but it's not clear any of the other AL Central teams are. The Twins have some glaring flaws, to be sure, but there's a real opportunity to compete into September and maybe beyond.

    Focusing on that goal may force the organization to make some tough calls.

    No Easy Answers

    I think we can safely say plugging in waiver wire fodder like Adam Wilk and Chris Heston is not going to be the solution to Minnesota's pitching woes. Nor does it appear that Nik Turley is going to get it done. Kyle Gibson and Adalberto Mejia have been erratic messes. Yet, for now, there is little choice but to keep running them out there.

    Hector Santiago appears close to returning (he'll make a rehab start this week) but he brings little assurance at this point. Phil Hughes is not all that close, and may come back as a reliever.

    I got this text last week from one of my more optimistic, bright-side-seeking Twins fan friends: "I know this is easier said than done but I really think if we could find even two more adequate starting pitchers and like three more bullpen arms we'd be just fine."

    I mean, you said it man.

    Unfortunately, finding adequate arms is a challenge that has vexed this franchise for the better part of a decade.

    In the minors, the Twins really have two players with the legitimate ability to enter the mix as difference-makers in the rotation. At Class-AA Chattanooga, Fernando Romero and Stephen Gonsalves (ranked Nos. 1 and 2 on Twins Daily's top prospect list) have both been tearing it up for the past several weeks. They have stuff that could play in the big leagues.

    But this is where the front office must weigh that big picture against maximizing the team's chances in the present. You certainly don't want to throw a guy into the fire before he's ready; neither prospect has made even 20 starts at Double-A, or any at Triple-A. There is also the matter of protecting arms. Romero missed two entire seasons before returning to throw 90 innings last year, while Gonsalves missed the first chunk of this year with shoulder issues. The organization is trying to carefully manage workloads and strain, which is much harder to do in the majors.

    Then again, there are not a lot of alternatives. Trading away significant talent for an impact starter would be more harmful to the long-term structure, and we've seen the types of replacement level talent out there in waivers and free agency. The Twins can either stick with that plan, or they can turn to the best internal options they have, slightly ahead of schedule.

    These are the tricky decisions involved with trying to hang in a race. It's nice to be in a position to tackle them again, and we'll learn much about the new regime in seeing how they proceed.

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    I have no idea. The Rays let him start 3 games in AAA this year and then he made 8 relief appearances in AAA before coming up to the Rays.

    Actually Hu was starting when they first called him up for bullpen work, and then he resumed bullpen work at AAA when they sent him down. He's come back to MLB for some long relief. Not sure what that means...

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    Here is the logic:

    you can be a seller and improve the team for both this season and the future.

     

    Example trade:  Ervin Santana to the Yankees for Jordan Montgomery & Tyler Webb.

     

    The Yankees get veteran leadership and the Twins get a starter who can be as good as Santana and a lefty piece for their pen who will likely be their best lefty for a while.

     

    In other works, let them be buyers, but buyers of young, controllable, MLB-ready talent, giving as a return older veterans who will regress (Santana, Dozier, Santiago, Perkins, etc; of course given interest; on the other hand getting rid of dead weight for someone like a heartbeat is also a positive) supplemented with questionable prospects (eg. Kohl Stewart).

     

    I am not talking about getting A-level prospects in return...

    Every GM in MLB baseball would make your proposed deal in a heartbeat except 1. Brian Cashman

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    I'm with Cheif here. We're dangerously close to sending the message that losing is acceptable. Player's aren't dumb. They notice that their pay checks come in win or lose. If losses pile up, you can let your frustration pile up, or just accept it. If you want players to go through the motions, instill a culture that suggests that games won't matter for a couple years. Then see how prepared you are for games that matter. Wait... that just happened. We need team leadership. We need guys to make everyone feel uncomfortable. Keep everyone accountable.

     

    I also agree with Thrylos in a sense. Brian Dozier may be part of the problem. Plouffe was. Nolasco was. Mauer may be. The players need to hold themselves accountable before we get them help. I think we may need to trade or dfa someone just to send a message to the remaining guys.

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    Heard a rumor the other day (can't for the life of me remember where) that the Twins were toying with the idea of trading Gordon (and cash?) for Chris Archer.   Not sure if that deal would fly but it does seem intriguing.

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    Heard a rumor the other day (can't for the life of me remember where) that the Twins were toying with the idea of trading Gordon (and cash?) for Chris Archer.   Not sure if that deal would fly but it does seem intriguing.

     

    NO CHANCE this is enough. No way.

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    I agree with Nick. I agree with Chief and Van, too. Houston and Cleveland do have better teams and it's going to be difficult to get past them let alone deep into the playoffs. But not impossible. So, I agree with Chief ... for cryin' out loud ... TRY! Give us a few more pieces to help put it together and try! 

     

    Could not agree more with you & Chief, Chitown!   Fergodsakes, so many folks are just obsessed with "building a team" and almost seem to want the Twins to be perpetually tinkering with the future.  I don't get it.  It's bizarre to think that anyone would enjoy watching the professional team of their choice lose, and continuously hope that team sells off it's best players.

     

    The Twins aren't a juggernaut.  But they're at a point where they're a .500 or above team in a league where they could sneak into the playoffs.  It seems like pitching is the main issue - add a few 'pen arms and go get an established starter.  That's not easy, but it's not impossible.  TRY!!!

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    Could not agree more with you & Chief, Chitown!   Fergodsakes, so many folks are just obsessed with "building a team" and almost seem to want the Twins to be perpetually tinkering with the future.  I don't get it.  It's bizarre to think that anyone would enjoy watching the professional team of their choice lose, and continuously hope that team sells off it's best players.

     

    The Twins aren't a juggernaut.  But they're at a point where they're a .500 or above team in a league where they could sneak into the playoffs.  It seems like pitching is the main issue - add a few 'pen arms and go get an established starter.  That's not easy, but it's not impossible.  TRY!!!

     

    In fairness, most of us wanted that when they really were rebuilding from scratch, and were criticized on this site then too.....

     

    Do people really think fans that post here all the time want the team in a perpetual rebuilding process? Really?

     

    Santana is 35, check out the long list of successful 35+ year old pitchers in history.....

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    NO CHANCE this is enough. No way.

    I'd have to agree with you.  Don't see it happening at all.  Although I wonder if they added something like Kohl Stewart and Trey Cabbage to the deal it might fly.

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    I don't even know where to start with this......the MLB draft is not the NBA or NFL drafts, You realize that no pitcher drafted was helping us next year right? Also Lewis doesn't have a "questionable bat" and their draft strategy was very good and we came out with a lot of talent as noted by many media outlets rather than having to tank the whole rest of the draft like Atlanta and Tampa had to do just to afford Wright and McKay. We came away with 7 top 200 players according to MLB.com (and every one of those guys were top 100 players in at least 1 publication), Atlanta came away with 2 and TB came away with 4 and all of those were reaches at their spot. We will know in about 5 years if it was a good discission or not but you NEVER draft for need in the MLB draft, that's how you end up with Kyle Gibson instead of Mike Trout or Mark Appel instead of Kris Bryant

    Amen brother.

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    I could care less that Hicks and Meyer are gone and I have no doubt the new regime will be buyers. Package several of our overrated prospects for a proven starting pitcher. Once again, free agency is very overrated and is 50/50 at best. See what we get at the deadline, take a deep breath, then look at free agency.

    You should.... Another starting pitcher and a starting corner outfielder would be huge right now. 

     

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    Kohl Stewart has no trade value, does Cabbage?

     

    Archer is going to cost 1 great  and 2 good prospects.

    Let the Wild Rumpus commence!!

     

    In all seriousness, I'm just throwing names out.   I don't believe that Stewart will pan out as reliable MLB pitcher and Cabbage is an athletic infielder who really hasn't seemed to realize his potential and fully adjust to  professional ball (at least offensively).

     

    I fully agree, Tampa isn't going to give Archer away without getting something major in return.

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    Could not agree more with you & Chief, Chitown!   Fergodsakes, so many folks are just obsessed with "building a team" and almost seem to want the Twins to be perpetually tinkering with the future.  I don't get it.  It's bizarre to think that anyone would enjoy watching the professional team of their choice lose, and continuously hope that team sells off it's best players.

     

    The Twins aren't a juggernaut.  But they're at a point where they're a .500 or above team in a league where they could sneak into the playoffs.  It seems like pitching is the main issue - add a few 'pen arms and go get an established starter.  That's not easy, but it's not impossible.  TRY!!!

    I'll echo Mike and say that I don't think anybody enjoys watching bad baseball for 6+ seasons. Rebuilds are ugly and the process can unfortunately be long. Some teams are far better at doing them effectively (Hello Houston and Chicago.) We're finally seeing a foundation forming after a delayed start to the process. To get to this stage and then start selling off prospects for rentals/a chance to drag a seriously flawed team into the playoffs this season is the equivalent of buying the cheapest materials you can in a rush to finish the project. If the goal is a sustained window of contention, which I believe it is, then I can be patient. 

     

    That said if the trade talks revolve around bringing in a starter with multiple years of team control I'm all ears. The Twins are likely going to have to make significant trades to improve the pitching staff. Barring some miracle, the Pohlad's piggy bank isn't breaking open and this team isn't spending real money in FA to improve the front end of the rotation. 

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    Actually Hu was starting when they first called him up for bullpen work, and then he resumed bullpen work at AAA when they sent him down. He's come back to MLB for some long relief. Not sure what that means...

     

    It means he is a marginal pitcher, maybe a backend guy or more likely a middle reliever. Which will make this trade worth a lot less consternation than it has received.

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    I know it's too bad this was against Cleveland, but do people really think that much differently about the team now than they did early last week?

     

    They'll likely bounce back and take 2 or (probably) 3 from the Sox, and be close to where they were before. The young bats are always going to be a roller coaster, enjoy the ride this year!

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    Heard a rumor the other day (can't for the life of me remember where) that the Twins were toying with the idea of trading Gordon (and cash?) for Chris Archer.   Not sure if that deal would fly but it does seem intriguing.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins were kicking around the idea of trading Gordon (or Polanco or Dozier or Lewis). Not sure what the level or interest would be. Rays, assuming they put Archer on the market, would want a strong return. He's signed for 2018-2019 as well so a team gets 2.5 years out of the trade. He's only had one big WAR year - 2015. He was a 1.8 WAR guy last year despite 200+ innings and 10 k/9.  I guess his home park is pretty good for pitchers.

     

    So a trading team could expect roughly 500 innings and, what, 7 WAR? So that's probably not the Sale return but more than just Gordon.

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    Would Eddie Rosario net us anything. Does he still have enough upside that he would bring anything back. His flaws in his swing and his lack of patience or ability to track pitches in the strike zone seem apparent. Does his overall athleticism and occasional power bring anything back that could help the rotation now?

    Sure, but other teams would probably put his value at 4th OF and maybe give a slight bonus for youth and years of control. Better than Sam Fuld which got us Tommy Milone, for example. Maybe you could find another Hector Santiago type pitcher with 1 year of control?

     

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    I disagree that Mejia has been an erratic mess. without the 1 horrible start against Seattle he has a 4.13 ERA which is decent. 1 bad game destroyed it

    I'm a big fan of Mejia but he has a 4.9 BB/9 rate and a 6.01 FIP, has pitched past the fifth inning only twice in nine starts. He's on thin ice. (Or would be, if they had anything for alternatives.)

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    I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins were kicking around the idea of trading Gordon (or Polanco or Dozier or Lewis). Not sure what the level or interest would be. Rays, assuming they put Archer on the market, would want a strong return. He's signed for 2018-2019 as well so a team gets 2.5 years out of the trade. He's only had one big WAR year - 2015. He was a 1.8 WAR guy last year despite 200+ innings and 10 k/9. I guess his home park is pretty good for pitchers.

     

    So a trading team could expect roughly 500 innings and, what, 7 WAR? So that's probably not the Sale return but more than just Gordon.

    Archer has super-affordable team options for 2020 and 2021 too.

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    Archer has super-affordable team options for 2020 and 2021 too.

    Oh yeah, you're right. I mis-read that.

     

    So add in his age 31 and 32 years so, maybe 800-900 innings and 10 WAR? 

    Edited by gunnarthor
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    In fairness, most of us wanted that when they really were rebuilding from scratch, and were criticized on this site then too.....

     

    Do people really think fans that post here all the time want the team in a perpetual rebuilding process? Really?

     

    Santana is 35, check out the long list of successful 35+ year old pitchers in history.....

    Thanks! I don't think looking at this roster, and this pitching staff, and suggesting ways to improve it is at all indicative of wanting a constant rebuild. I view it more as reality. The Twins are far more entertaining to watch than last year. There's some semblance of talent on the field. But for the FO to think that this pitching staff could take us to even a second WC spot would border on malfeasance. Making a desperate trade for a faux WC race would set this orginisation back a year at least. It sucks after six years, but the future is still where it's at in TwinsWorld.
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    I think those types of trades might be pretty dangerous. Maybe Montgomery is more than he seems but he also might be another Tyler Duffey. He wasn't a highly regarded pitcher and most scouting reports had him as a backend guy or long relief. Tyler Webb is a 26 year old relief pitcher who has never reached the majors but putting good numbers in AAA. That kind of trade has pretty big risk.

     

    And Santana, half an elbow ligament and/or another PED conviction away from ending his career at 34 years old is not a risk?

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    And Santana, half an elbow ligament and/or another PED conviction away from ending his career at 34 years old is not a risk?

    Sure but that's probably not the right way to look at trades. I'm ok with trading Santana but the return you suggested looks bad to me. Webb is a career minor leaguer so far. If our scouts think Montgomery's legit, that's one thing. But a handful of starts in the majors probably isn't enough to throw out the scouting reports in the offseason.

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    Is Tampa Bay loaded at SP in their organization? Because Hu is now a reliever in AAA... 

     

     

    According to Sickles, Tampa Bay has two pitchers with a grade of B+ or better, Jose DeLeon and Brent Honeywell. In comparison, the Twins had Gonsalves and Romero in that category. Hu was graded at B-. Sickles gave the Rays a pre-season ranking of 12th, the Twins 15th. 

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    Jepsen almost pitched us into the play-offs, since we came up short it was a bad trade. That's silly. Hindsight is truly a wonderful tool.

     

    In Mike Sixel's defense, which just about kills me    ;) , many of us were foresighted enough to say that, while Jepsen was a good get, he was late to the party and not enough.

    Edited by birdwatcher
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    To get to this stage and then start selling off prospects for rentals/a chance to drag a seriously flawed team into the playoffs this season is the equivalent of buying the cheapest materials you can in a rush to finish the project.

     

    Totally get it - and I do understand.  I hope I'm not coming off like I'm barking too hard at you guys.  That said, let me get to the point:

     

    Your theory assumes that many of the Twins prospects are going to pan out.  I think we've learned the hard way that even "sure things" aren't guaranteed to even bat .200.  

     

    Are you waiting for 2020?  Because by then, Dozier will be gone, Mauer will be retired, and Sano will be wearing a Yankees uniform.  Guys like Vargas and Rosario won't be around either.  What are we left with?

     

    Can you give me your starting 9 players in 2020 and tell me the Twins will be better than they are now?  

     

    It's a rhetorical question, because nobody can predict the future.  The reality of life is NOW.  I can say for certainty that the Twins are 2 games out of first place NOW, with decent players and appear to be a few pitchers away from a playoff run.  I'll take that against your 2019-2020 team any day. 

     

     

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    Totally get it - and I do understand. I hope I'm not coming off like I'm barking too hard at you guys. That said, let me get to the point:

     

    Your theory assumes that many of the Twins prospects are going to pan out. I think we've learned the hard way that even "sure things" aren't guaranteed to even bat .200.

     

    Are you waiting for 2020? Because by then, Dozier will be gone, Mauer will be retired, and Sano will be wearing a Yankees uniform. Guys like Vargas and Rosario won't be around either. What are we left with?

     

    Can you give me your starting 9 players in 2020 and tell me the Twins will be better than they are now?

     

    It's a rhetorical question, because nobody can predict the future. The reality of life is NOW. I can say for certainty that the Twins are 2 games out of first place NOW, with decent players and appear to be a few pitchers away from a playoff run. I'll take that against your 2019-2020 team any day.

     

    Sano isn't going anywhere before 2020.

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