Photographer Accuses Miguel Sano Of Assault

 

I really don't think this discussion should be taking place on Twins Daily. There are legal implications to this, both civil and criminal. There are possible financial penalties, no matter who is telling the truth. Since TD has "employed"  Betsy and since some owners know her and since TD is involved with the Twins' players closely, and since these discussions can quickly get out of hand, I, for one, would recommend the moderators pull the plug on further discussion about this for now. I realize I am asking this topic to be censored and I don't recommend this lightly. I do not represent TD as an attorney, nor anyone associated with this matter, but have practiced law for over 40 years and would recommend TD consult an attorney in Minnesota before further discussion of this matter on this site.

 

 

I completely agree. This site employed (or employs?) the accuser.  There seems to be no way for this thread to be very useful, or to provide any useful discussion.  I like to discuss, and even argue about, Twins players and Twins baseball on this site.  I don't think that talking about the alleged assault of an employee of this website is a fruitful use of the commenting feature. Especially here.

 

You misunderstood the context of the conversation. I have no idea what the police would have done had Betsy gone to them with the accusation.

 

But we were talking about Nick Nelson not going to the police, even though he wasn't there and it was well after the fact (by over a year, if I'm understanding the timeline correctly). The police would do nothing if Nick spoke up, which was the point I made.

Even a year later though, as a part of Twinsdaily, I don't know if you have a corporate governance or handbook but it may be that any allegations reported need to be filed with the local police, or at the very least notify the Twins.  If he is the monster many want to claim he is, then Nick possibly enabled him to do this to other women for another year.  And if he is the monster there will be other women.  These predators cannot control their impulses.

Edited December 29, 2017 by bunsen82

 

There is the pattern which was likely. I wonder if there will be other assault accusations. It's all bad, but physical assault is another level.

 

Ugh.

 

This is also relevant. https://twitter.com/ParkerHageman/status/946755197744840704

 

And don't forget to scroll down after reading the article so you can see the advert for swimsuit model casting .... The hypocrisy ... These media outlets don't actually care about the issues women are facing

 

Also, these attacks on Nick Nelson and other TD staff (none of whom I know) are disgusting ... None of them were witnesses, accomplices or, from what I have read, ever made privy to physical evidence (e.g. seeing the bruising) ... I wish these threads would be locked permanently

 

You misunderstood the context of the conversation. I have no idea what the police would have done had Betsy gone to them with the accusation.

 

But we were talking about Nick Nelson not going to the police, even though he wasn't there and it was well after the fact (by over a year, if I'm understanding the timeline correctly). The police would do nothing if Nick spoke up, which was the point I made.

 

Fair enough.  Nick going in is certainly a lot different than Betsy going in, but I still don't think we can assume that the police would have done nothing.   It depends on what Nick would have told them.  If he gave them enough detail to investigate further, it's possible they would have done so.

 

I used to work for the Hennepin County court system, I saw domestic assault cases prosecuted where the victim was uncooperative with law enforcement.  Not many, but it happens.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying that Nick or others Besty confided in should have gone to the police (I wouldn't have in Nick's shoes either), or that the police definitely would have taken it further (probably not, possible.)

 

My only point is that the speculation doesn't help.

 

 

 

 

Do you not agree?

 

I was referring to how this situation is about to get worse for Sano and the Twins.

 

i don't have the link, but I've seen it posted elsewhere that it's a false 6% of the time. So, I'd say it's pretty rare when it happens. Think of how many thousands upon thousands of cases there are and 95% of them are true.

Seems easier to me to not jump to the "she's lying" accusations (not saying you are, but a whole ton of people are). I've seen people bring up the names of five guys who were falsely accused and because of those five guys it means every woman is lying. There are people saying that. That's wrong.

 

6% is a lot of false accusations.   The other point I am making is that many of this waves' allegations are not sexual assaults:  they are just a (often young) man's attempt to ask a woman for sex in a very idiotic manner, maybe even aggressive manner.  Given today's coverage of "sexual assault" I think we need to be very wary of these types of issues.

Never thought my first post on TD would be on an article like this but it is what it is. All I'm going to say is if after this investigation is over, if Falvine has even one little twitch of belief that Sano did this then trade him. I don't want him on the team. That then sets a precedent for younger players who are working their way up that if your performance is good enough, the organization will overlook inexcusable behavior. That precedent will absolutely kill any decent "clubhouse culture" that is always being talked about. If he did it, I want him off the team in less than 12 hours.

Hypothetically lets say something did happen we take her at her word, however the investigation cannot validate her claims or it didn't rise to the level of harm for any discipline through MLB or criminally.  Does Sano still deserve to have his name smeared?  Is that just the risk of being an athlete. Now I have read the above posts, so there may be some more smoke regarding a pattern of behavior. 

 

 

And don't forget to scroll down after reading the article so you can see the advert for swimsuit model casting .... The hypocrisy ... These media outlets don't actually care about the issues women are facing

 

Also, these attacks on Nick Nelson and other TD staff (none of whom I know) are disgusting ... None of them were witnesses, accomplices or, from what I have read, ever made privy to physical evidence (e.g. seeing the bruising) ... I wish these threads would be locked permanently

I don't know Nicks status within TwinsDaily.  I have attached an article. I understand this occurred while she was not technically doing work for TwinsDaily.  For corporate law any allegation is required to be investigated at minimum at the corporate level if management becomes aware whether or not the individual affected cooperated.  I also don't know his status if he is a mandatory reporter. Now I agree there is some grey area here and this likely could be classified as friendly conversation outside of work, just be aware a company can still be liable if they knew or should have known and did not do a proper investigation to ensure this sexual harassment does not occur again.  I can find more caselaw if needed, this looked pretty clear cut though, even though this is looking at employee on employee harassment. 

 

https://www.ohiobar.org/ForPublic/Resources/LawYouCanUse/Pages/LawYouCanUse-378.aspx

 

Hypothetically lets say something did happen we take her at her word, however the investigation cannot validate her claims or it didn't rise to the level of harm for any discipline through MLB or criminally.  Does Sano still deserve to have his name smeared?  Is that just the risk of being an athlete. Now I have read the above posts, so there may be some more smoke regarding a pattern of behavior. 

The point isn't whether Ms. Bissen's claims can be validated--it's whether they're true. Sano's name is being smeared only to the degree that we are all aware of these claims. No one's saying he did anything better or worse than exactly what he's being accused of doing.

 

As others have said, about 6% of allegations turn out to be false. People can interpret that as a lot or a little, but at the end of the day, it means knowing nothing except there was an allegation made, we should think there's a 94% chance Sano did what he's accused of doing.

6% is a lot of false accusations.   The other point I am making is that many of this waves' allegations are not sexual assaults:  they are just a (often young) man's attempt to ask a woman for sex in a very idiotic manner, maybe even aggressive manner.  Given today's coverage of "sexual assault" I think we need to be very wary of these types of issues.

See I think this is part of the problem. I've seen for months now other men saying: "man, I can't even talk to a woman now without it being sexual harassment." "Better not ask her for her number or if she wants to have a drink...it's now sexual harassment."

 

Where is this coming from?! What women are saying asking a person out once is sexual harassment? I've seen zero instances of this happening. If a man is questioning if he can even talk to a woman anymore then to me that's way more telling. Either you're creepy or you're not. And you should certainly know the difference. If someone has to question how they interact with other people than they are likely not acting appropriately and some part of them knows it. What someone may think of as idiotic is considered scary to a woman.

 

Why do we think it's romantic when we hear stories of a guy repeatedly asking a woman to go out for years? She's saying no for a reason. And then the men are proud when the woman finally give in and says yes. They likely gave in because they were tired of being constantly harassed. Why are men not stopping? This is not cute.

 

Why do we teach girls they need to cover up because it gives boys bad thoughts? As a guy, I've never been told to cover up because girls will have bad thoughts. Why does this double standard exist?

 

Why are women afraid to walk alone at night? Why are they taught that they should have their keys out and ready to get in their car quickly if they need to? Why are they also taught that they should put one of those keys between two of their fingers to protect themselves if necessary? I've never had to do or worry about any of this as a man. I could be attacked too, but it's not a fear that's constantly in the back of my mind.

 

Why do young boys who sleep with a teacher get a high five? Why is it not the same for girls? Both times are equally wrong.

 

Why are women considered sluts and men considered studs when they've been with a lot of people?

 

Why do men think it's okay to compliment a woman's body or what she's wearing, especially in the workplace? If a straight man wouldn't say it to a male coworker then why are they saying it to the female coworker? She's not there to be sexualized. She's there to work. And if a man would say it to both, again, that's still being creepy and harassing the person if you do it repeatedly.

 

Why do father's/brothers "jokingly" say that their daughter/sister needs to be locked in a closet/bedroom for thirty years in order to keep them away from boys/men. Or say "they've got guns" as a threat to the boy, serious or not. Never heard a man say this about his son/brother. This is something I've even said. I do not have a sister or kids (nor do I want any).

 

We know why.

I made a longer post about this in the other thread, but one point worth repeating is that there is no consensus on the percentage of accusations that are false and the 6% figure is disputed.

 

In any case, while it's safe to say that the majority of accusations are not false, false accusations happen enough that it is both dangerous and foolish to dismiss the possibility off the bar due to its alleged rarity.  

 

I don't believe this is a false accusation, but I object to cavalierly waving away concerns about false accusations based on their alleged rarity.

 

Even if you take the 6% figure as true, that means out of every 100,000 allegations, 6,000 are false.  That's 6,000 innocent men that are unjustly punished or branded as sexual predators.  Are you comfortable with that, if it means the other 94,000 face consequences?  What if you, your father or your brother were among those 6,000?

 

Let me put this a different way with way bigger numbers.

They say something like two out of three assaults go unreported. Numbers vary but whatever, the numbers are so large they don’t really matter for this example.

So for every 100,000 assaults, there are 200,000 unreported assaults. That means for every 300,000 assaults, 6,000 are false accusations.

A large reason why women are reluctant to come out and talk about their experiences is because of what we’re seeing in this thread (which pales in comparison to the crap I’ve seen in other places over the past two days). Dissecting every word of their statements, challenging their personal history, implying they misunderstood the situation and/or intent, literally focusing on everything BUT the potential crime under consideration.

So I ask you this:

Why are you worried so much about your 6,000 fathers, brothers, and sons but giving so little thought or consideration to your 294,000 mothers, daughters, and sisters?

 

I personally don't believe that being concerned about the one precludes us from being concerned about the other. Considering that the fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters are what make us all who we are. Honestly I look at those numbers, however you cut them up, and feel a moderate amount of shame that crap like this still goes on.

 

Let me put this a different way with way bigger numbers.

They say something like two out of three assaults go unreported. Numbers vary but whatever, the numbers are so large they don’t really matter for this example.

So for every 100,000 assaults, there are 200,000 unreported assaults. That means for every 300,000 assaults, 6,000 are false accusations.

A large reason why women are reluctant to come out and talk about their experiences is because of what we’re seeing in this thread (which pales in comparison to the crap I’ve seen in other places over the past two days). Dissecting every word of their statements, challenging their personal history, implying they misunderstood the situation and/or intent, literally focusing on everything BUT the potential crime under consideration.

So I ask you this:

Why are you worried so much about your 6,000 fathers, brothers, and sons but giving so little thought or consideration to your 294,000 mothers, daughters, and sisters?

 

Fun fact 

 

one can be concerned about addressing the seriousness of sexual misconduct AND fairness to the accused.    

Edited December 29, 2017 by one_eyed_jack

 

Agreed that it’s a shame it still happens but some people in this thread are giving a lot of consideration to Sano and virtually none to Bissen.

They should probably ask themselves why that’s the case.

I believe Betsy but have somehow managed not to say an ill word about Sano in the process. I’ll let the investigators figure that part out. The only thing I can do right now is support a woman who had the gumption to talk about a very bad situation.

 

Sorry, I forgot, one cannot make a point these days without the prerequisite degree of gertruding.   I believe that Betsy Bissen endured a traumatic event and that shes deserves our support and gratitude for coming forward.  OK?

 

 

 

Moderator's Note: The discussion in these Sano threads has been basically constructive, but please don't bring in straw men arguments that create an extreme point of view to argue against, one which no one is actually proposing. Constructions like the one above lead nowhere. Not just the post I'm mentioning here, but in several other posts I've seen, and it leads to pointless digressions. Thanks.

 

Duly noted.  I misinterpreted an earlier post and perhaps overreacted a bit  My apologies, I will be more deliberative before responding from here on.